Suspenseful enough?

tambourineman

New member
Didnt Mythbusters find the raft thing "plausible"? It floated down as gently as a feather and their dummy thing didnt have a scratch. I was surprised, but since watching that I like that scene a hell of a lot more.

The problem for me in Skull is the execution, not the idea. This doesnt go for all the suspense scenes, I think much of it was really well done. But I have to wonder what happened with a scene like the waterfall scene. It should have been the most suspenseful and thrilling scene in the film, but its about as exciting and suspenseful as watching someone on a theme park ride.
 

Indy's brother

New member
tambourineman said:
The problem for me in Skull is the execution, not the idea. This doesnt go for all the suspense scenes, I think much of it was really well done. But I have to wonder what happened with a scene like the waterfall scene. It should have been the most suspenseful and thrilling scene in the film, but its about as exciting and suspenseful as watching someone on a theme park ride.

I agree, in any of the ideas in KOTCS there was potential that was not realized. I blame the whimsical breezy tone of the film as a whole. By the time the waterfall sequence starts, Indy and his crew had already stretched the credibility of their peril. After surviving the nuke without so much as a bruise or a scratch, the soldiers shooting at Indy from 6 feet away and missing (in the "duck chase"), Spalko missing Marion from 3 feet away, Spalko using her signature sword more like a riding crop than anything, and the "rubber tree" bit.....the waterfall sequence lacked any tension whatsoever. What. Like THAT would hurt them at this point? Their luck is incredible, even for an Indiana Jones movie: they were all invincible! With the exception of Mac. And who really cared by then? Mac's death would have carried more weight if he had more than 1 1/2 dimensions, or would have helped build the tension if he were killed off earlier in the movie.

It's such a downer because all the pieces were there. With a few different editing choices and an extra 5 mintues of film it would have been a completely different movie.
 

JP Jones

New member
Hasn't anyone brought up the part where Indy is driving on the edge of the cliff. That was the most suspenseful part of the movie behind the doomtown scene obliviously.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Something that will always diminish suspense in an Indy film, is the expectation that Indy will survive. As with the original pulp serials the hero was always bound to survive, but the suspense was created by the seemingly impossible cliffhanger in which the hero was left at the end of each episode.

It's how the hero will escape that creates the suspense, rather than if the hero will escape.

Therefore, with the fourth big screen outing for Indy, it was probably unavoidable that the cliffhangers would become even more outrageous than before.

Lucas was sticking to the formula that Raiders followed, but he felt under some obligation to make the cliffhangers more extreme, in order to make them more suspenseful.

There is a danger that a character can have too many outings, if the creators are firmly committed to the same formula. I keep using Bond films as an example of a stale formula (which found new life with a more realistic Daniel Craig reboot).

This is veering off into Indy V territory, so I'll be brief: After four movies, we know who Indy is and where his inspiration came from, so I'd propose that Indy V needn't follow the same formula in order to create suspense. The outrageous cliffhangers of KOTCS, which have angered some fans, need not be repeated. An older Harrison can be in a suspenseful Indy movie, if the story is intense, and geared more towards mystery than outright action spectacle. I see Indy as an interesting character in quieter moments, just as much as he is in full-blown action.
 

Ajax the Great

New member
Montana Smith said:
Something that will always diminish suspense in an Indy film, is the expectation that Indy will survive. As with the original pulp serials the hero was always bound to survive, but the suspense was created by the seemingly impossible cliffhanger in which the hero was left at the end of each episode.

It's how the hero will escape that creates the suspense, rather than if the hero will escape.

Great post, you're absolutely right. Another question is "How much abuse is Indy going to take before he wins?" I thought that was something CS neglected. In Raiders and ToD, when he get punched, you felt it. You could see him getting worn down as each fight progressed. In CS, an Indy 20 years older got tackled by a huge Russkie, fell through a glass floor onto a platform, with the Russkie landing on top of him, got beaten with a chain and then almost strangled. And he didn't seem to be in all that much pain. Then during the ant fight, he gets a brutal beating but still manages to pick up Oxley and run alongside and jump into a moving car.

Could a 38 year old Indy have done all that without showing that much pain? I doubt it - so how can he deal with it at age 58?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Ajax the Great said:
Great post, you're absolutely right. Another question is "How much abuse is Indy going to take before he wins?" I thought that was something CS neglected. In Raiders and ToD, when he get punched, you felt it. You could see him getting worn down as each fight progressed. In CS, an Indy 20 years older got tackled by a huge Russkie, fell through a glass floor onto a platform, with the Russkie landing on top of him, got beaten with a chain and then almost strangled. And he didn't seem to be in all that much pain. Then during the ant fight, he gets a brutal beating but still manages to pick up Oxley and run alongside and jump into a moving car.

Could a 38 year old Indy have done all that without showing that much pain? I doubt it - so how can he deal with it at age 58?

Yes, KOTCS missed out on showing the punishment that Indy suffers. The violence is present, as it was in the other films, but this time it's muted. Now that we have the expectation that Indy's going to survive, it's as though the creators felt they could draw back from the graphic nature of the violence. Something which Rollins' novel didn't avoid - presuming that the novel is the adult version of KOTCS, and and the screen version intended for family viewing.

In Raiders when the Mechanic punches Indy in the face, knocking him to the ground on his butt, Indy has that classic shocked look on his face. Right there in that moment was the suspense, and Indy's brain was working to figure out how he was going to get out of this situation. With succeeding films this form of suspense is in danger of becoming more of a running gag, especially when Lucas et al are trying to make a film that's going to appeal to a wide-ranging audience.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Ajax the Great said:
Great post, you're absolutely right. Another question is "How much abuse is Indy going to take before he wins?" I thought that was something CS neglected. In Raiders and ToD, when he get punched, you felt it. You could see him getting worn down as each fight progressed. In CS, an Indy 20 years older got tackled by a huge Russkie, fell through a glass floor onto a platform, with the Russkie landing on top of him, got beaten with a chain and then almost strangled. And he didn't seem to be in all that much pain. Then during the ant fight, he gets a brutal beating but still manages to pick up Oxley and run alongside and jump into a moving car.

Could a 38 year old Indy have done all that without showing that much pain? I doubt it - so how can he deal with it at age 58?

I think it's a careful balancing act... after all, cinematically speaking (even in a Hollywood movie), a circa 65 year old man taking punches and spitting teeth and blood is not that pleasant to witness. Although Ford's still in great shape for his age, most youngsters (including my young daughter) just see him as an adventurous grandfather type figure (whereas I still visualise him in his prime).
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Darth Vile said:
I think it's a careful balancing act... after all, cinematically speaking (even in a Hollywood movie), a circa 65 year old man taking punches and spitting teeth and blood is not that pleasant to witness. Although Ford's still in great shape for his age, most youngsters (including my young daughter) just see him as an adventurous grandfather type figure (whereas I still visualise him in his prime).

Seeing Harrison spitting blood into the sink in Blade Runner wasn't pleasant either. It is a careful balancing act, especially now that film-makers are balancing a range of age ratings with marketing concerns.

In Blade Runner you could see Harrison go through the pain and suffering. He went through it in the first three Indy movies, where blood or extreme violence weren't an issue (the Mechanic vs the propellers; the Giant Thuggee vs the grinder; the Turkish solider's head vs the Temple blade trap - all moments of black comedy, or comic horror).

I agree that it's distressing to see an old guy (a grandfather figure) taking punishment. That's why the first appearance of Harrison in KOTCS was shocking to me. He was hurled unceremoniously from the boot of the car to the concrete. After that Lucas and Spielberg shied away from the visual impact of the violence.

Rather than write it out again, here's what I wrote in the KOTCS vs TOD thread:

Montana Smith said:
I mentioned above that the novel is less family-oriented than the film. James Rollins seemed keen to express the pain and the dire threat that Indy faced. He also makes repeated mention of Indy's dodgy hip.

On the rocket sled there's this:

"Dovchenko slowly squeezed his fingers as Jones struggled.
He enjoyed watching the man's face turn blue, then desperate.
This is how you die, Jones.
His captive's eyes went wild. Mashed against the cowling, Jones sought some means of escape. Not this time.

...

Dovchenko felt the heart go out of his captive.

...

Dovchenko tightened the fist around Jones's throat."


The only thing that saves him is kicking the sled’s throttle.

A lot of Russian soldiers die in the book, but I don’t think you get to see that on film. It’s as though the novel is the adult version, and the film the junior version.

Also, in the fridge Indy doesn’t remember hitting the ground:

"In fact, he remembered nothing beyond waking up in the dark, enclosed space. For a terrified moment he thought he’d been buried alive…Then he remembered it all. And his panic grew worse. He fought, shouldered, and kicked at the refrigerator door…Indy stumbled a few steps, struggling to find cool air."

Rollins went as far as he could without rewriting what we actually see on screen. I got the feeling that if he had his way, Indy would have sustained greater injury - which Rocket has argued in the past Indy should rightfully have suffered (by rights the landing was the most dangerous part of his fridge ride. I can accept that his luck factor meant the fridge was blown clear and remained intact, but the landing would have broken bones and puntured organs if undertaken in our world).

During the radiation scrub down, Rollins makes the following comment on Indy:

"So he had a few scars. Who didn't? Each one told a story from a life lived at the shadowy edge of history."

Indy was described as having wandered out of the atomic blast zone "nearly delirious". Of course, on film we don't see that.
 
Last edited:

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
Seeing Harrison spitting blood into the sink in Blade Runner wasn't pleasant either. It is a careful balancing act, especially now that film-makers are balancing a range of age ratings with marketing concerns.

In Blade Runner you could see Harrison go through the pain and suffering. He went through it in the first three Indy movies, where blood or extreme violence weren't an issue (the Mechanic vs the propellers; the Giant Thuggee vs the grinder; the Turkish solider's head vs the Temple blade trap - all moments of black comedy, or comic horror).

I agree that it's distressing to see an old guy (a grandfather figure) taking punishment. That's why the first appearance of Harrison in KOTCS was shocking to me. He was hurled unceremoniously from the boot of the car to the concrete. After that Lucas and Spielberg shied away from the visual impact of the violence.

Rather than write it out again, here's what I wrote in the KOTCS vs TOD thread:

There is no denying that KOTCS is a little bit more family friendly than Raiders and TOD (on a par with TLC I'd say). However, I'm not really sure how important that is as, in regard to the first three, I find TLC a lot more enjoyable than I do TOD.

Seemed to me that Spielberg/Lucas took a conscious step to use Mutt for the "getting beaten up" role as there were a couple of shots very reminiscent of the younger Indy (thinking about Spalko beating him up). And I think it's just one of the considerations when using an older Harrison Ford now i.e. he doesn't look young any more... and seeing an old man getting beat up is not only more uncomfortable for the audience, but a little less believable too (IMHO).
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Darth Vile said:
There is no denying that KOTCS is a little bit more family friendly than Raiders and TOD (on a par with TLC I'd say). However, I'm not really sure how important that is as, in regard to the first three, I find TLC a lot more enjoyable than I do TOD.

Seemed to me that Spielberg/Lucas took a conscious step to use Mutt for the "getting beaten up" role as there were a couple of shots very reminiscent of the younger Indy (thinking about Spalko beating him up). And I think it's just one of the considerations when using an older Harrison Ford now i.e. he doesn't look young any more... and seeing an old man getting beat up is not only more uncomfortable for the audience, but a little less believable too (IMHO).

That is true - Mutt got a scar on his dad's behalf. It's not that I want to see Indy beaten to a pulp, but as the older Indy can't take the punishment, it's time to change the nature of the scripts. He was always resourceful, if there is an Indy V, then the suspense should build on the mystery rather than the action.

Having Mutt as a proxy Indy would be tantamount to passing the hat, with Indy himself as the Henry Sr. type sidekick. I think there's still life in the old dog, just as there was in Joihn Wayne towards the end of his career. Enough life to create suspense, before that horrible moment if or when Mutt takes over as the new generation (which would really be the end of Indy as I see him).

KOTCS was a full-on action screenplay, in which the older Indy was intended to relive his past exploits. As such, the limitations of age meant that some of the action couldn't be resolved in the manner we were accustomed to, due as much to the sensibilities of age as the physical limitations of age.

Despite the age Indy still has that dominant presence that the older John Wayne had, a wisdom and strength of mind. Suspense could have been created more often without getting into the thorny issue of age vs physical contact. The one exception was exiting the fridge - that was unavoidable physical contact - where Indy could have worn the suffering a little harder, as a badge of surviving the greatest cliffhanger of his life. As he said in ROTLA, it's not the years it's the mileage. The fridge added quite a few extra metaphorical miles!
 

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
That is true - Mutt got a scar on his dad's behalf. It's not that I want to see Indy beaten to a pulp, but as the older Indy can't take the punishment, it's time to change the nature of the scripts. He was always resourceful, if there is an Indy V, then the suspense should build on the mystery rather than the action.

Having Mutt as a proxy Indy would be tantamount to passing the hat, with Indy himself as the Henry Sr. type sidekick. I think there's still life in the old dog, just as there was in Joihn Wayne towards the end of his career. Enough life to create suspense, before that horrible moment if or when Mutt takes over as the new generation (which would really be the end of Indy as I see him).

KOTCS was a full-on action screenplay, in which the older Indy was intended to relive his past exploits. As such, the limitations of age meant that some of the action couldn't be resolved in the manner we were accustomed to, due as much to the sensibilities of age as the physical limitations of age.

Despite the age Indy still has that dominant presence that the older John Wayne had, a wisdom and strength of mind. Suspense could have been created more often without getting into the thorny issue of age vs physical contact. The one exception was exiting the fridge - that was unavoidable physical contact - where Indy could have worn the suffering a little harder, as a badge of surviving the greatest cliffhanger of his life. As he said in ROTLA, it's not the years it's the mileage. The fridge added quite a few extra metaphorical miles!

All true enough... I think it's just a question of wether the audience is willing to accept Indiana Jones, as played by Harrison Ford, being less of an action hero figure. And there in lies KOTCS's biggest problem for me (if I'm being uber critical) i.e. the paradox is that Harrison Ford was the best thing about KOTCS (IMHO), but he was also the thing that limited the scope of the movie... because KOTCS had to be an action movie first and foremost... and any action movie that has its leading character played by a circa 70 year old is always going to be difficult to pull off.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Darth Vile said:
All true enough... I think it's just a question of wether the audience is willing to accept Indiana Jones, as played by Harrison Ford, being less of an action hero figure. And there in lies KOTCS's biggest problem for me (if I'm being uber critical) i.e. the paradox is that Harrison Ford was the best thing about KOTCS (IMHO), but he was also the thing that limited the scope of the movie... because KOTCS had to be an action movie first and foremost... and any action movie that has its leading character played by a circa 70 year old is always going to be difficult to pull off.

Yes, it's a state of mind. To me the character of Indy is just as much fun as the action elements. Indy's dialogue and expressions are just as entertaining.

The general audience will expect the action formula to be paramount (no pun), so I would put myself in a tiny minority by wishing to see a quieter, less action-oriented Indy movie. Harrison is a great actor, and I'd like to see him stretch the scope of the role.

A tale of eerie mystery and suspense. At 70 he can still pilot an aero-sled, too! So there can be action scenes, but tailored to what the older Indy can realistically accomplish. Despite the dodgy hip, he's fitter than a lot of guys his age. Like John Wayne he'll rely more on his gun and his wits.
 

Cole

New member
First, I guess I'll say my peace here..........if the film lacks any particular "suspense," I think it is more towards the end and it's only because it mimics the general plotline of the first 3 movies (particularly 'Raiders').

Indy fights another super worldpower? Check.
Greedy villain gets destroyed by the artifact? Check.

This is why it's hard to make sequels.......hard to be new/fresh.

Nonetheless it's a very minor quibble, as I still absolutely love the film.
 

Cole

New member
MaxPhactor23 said:
Now I've been over this time and time again, but there's a huge misconception that comes along with this argument…especially when it seems to be the most cited moment in the entire original trilogy used to defend Crystal Skulls downright cartoon-level silliness. As someone mentioned, the Myth Busters proved that the raft trick is indeed more plausible than meets the eye. In fact apparently it’s downright possible! Plus placed in a literal life or death moment…why not chance it? It’s better than certain death, right?

Now for me Marion’s duck boat cliff dive wouldn’t even be all that bad so long as the “rubber tree” didn’t flyswatter back up to hit our communistic comrades. Now that…that was just impossible! The same can be said for surviving a nuclear blast in a fridge, lead lined or not. It could certainly be argued that even the mine cart jump (seen in Doom) and the miraculous landing back on the tracks, inarguably highly unlikely to ridiculous levels, is still not applicable as it’s indeed still possible, no matter how doubtful. There’s a defining difference between improbability and impossibility.

Crystal Skull had moments of sheer impossibility, heightening the cinematic fun of the improbable (seen in the originals) to be now raised to downright over-the-top levels of escalated cartoon slapstick impossible. The counter-argument around here always turns to the McGuffin, something akin to “Ghosts that melt faces are impossible, I don’t hear you complaining about that!” Yes they are, but I’ve never seen that applicable either. Each Indiana Jones story has been motivated by myth or legend. They all culminate in real myth (yes I’m aware of that being an oxymoron), but were placed in realistic settings like Hilter’s actual interest in archaeology and the occult or the Thuggee cult of India. It's always been a blending of realism with mythology. Much of Crystal Skull’s most unbelievable or unfeasible moments were outside of the fantasy element (that was this stories focal point - the Skulls) and instead were during action scenes, moments the previous films always made improbable, but not outright impossible. Skull broke the Indiana Jones formula established by the originals in more than a few ways.
With all due respect, I think if anyone knows the Indiana Jones formula better than anyone, it's the guys who created it: George Lucas and Steven Spielberg.

You say there is a difference between improbable and impossible - I agree...........but perhaps there is a misconception about the nuke scene.

First, the bomb isn't dropped directly on the town. It drops a few miles from the town where we see the bomb sitting on that structure. The tests were conducted to see what would happen on the outskirts of the bomb - what would happen to nearby civilians. Not everything in these tests were obliterated.

The initial shockwave of the bomb could possibly propel the refrigerator........yea, Indy probably would have had some broken bones, but so would Iron Man with all the stuff he does, and nobody seems to be complaining about that.

It's obviously an outrageous scene, harking back to the outlandish action serials Lucas loved as a kid.......that's the fun of it. You suspend reality for the sake of entertainment. Maybe that's why these action serials appealed to kids more.......adults are too cynical. What's most important is that it's exceptionally well-made and extraordinarily entertaining. Frankly, arguing about the "plausibility" is boring, useless, and not really the point to me.
 

FedoraHead

New member
I hate they just made up things! A big truck that cuts down tree's as it goes full speed! Ants that get people and carry them way and climb each other to get to a human. With all Indy movies or most movies I can handle a little 'leap of faith' but when you make up to much it makes it harder to take that leap. Sorry but that Cutter thing really drives me crazy
 

Meerkat

New member
Well, we all know how these adventure stories end. The villain dies, and the hero lives happily ever after.
 

AtomicAnt

New member
I think the suspense went out the window when they showed the alien body at Hangar 51. They should have open the box then went with reaction shots from everyone, and let the audience wonder what really was in the crate until the reveal in the Jungle camp. Also.. not really suspense or anything, but why did Indy even help the Russians? He didn't even put up a fight at the beginning.. The Russians just kinda said "You'll help us." and he said "no." and then they said "Come 'on." and he was just like "Okay." That was the most un-Indy thing I can think of him.. He just said okay and went into the hangar and helped them. There was no motivation there. (it would have helped him seem a littleless like a push over if they had the deleted scene of Mac being threatened by the car.) The Nuke the fridge, while a trap.. could've been handled in a more suspenseful way. Instead of seeing the fridge go flying we should have gotten an Indy POV, him in the fridge getting tossed about in total darkness.

Also, death traps in cemetery, it needed them.
 
Top