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Old 04-28-2008, 05:26 PM   #51
tupogirl
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Demons of Deception was the last one I watched, and while Verdun was a great episode, Paris was just.....plain bad. It made me ill. I fast-forwarded through several scenes. The point of learning a little more about the wiles of love could have been made without being so graphic. I think it really brought down Indy's character and was completely unnecessary.

I was incredibly sneaky to get this on tape back then!! I had a huge elaborate plan that worked, lol.

I'd much rather read the novel of it then watch the episode. I did think they needed SPF shirtless more. I think it's an important one though for the discussion on why men want to 'control' beautiful women (men want to own beautiful things) and how she is using him for his youth.

It pisses me off how fast he wanted a commitment from her. Although he is a pretty fast mover I guess, falls in love fast and hard. Probably because of losing his mama so young and having a cold father. It happens.
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Old 04-28-2008, 06:34 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tupogirl
It pisses me off how fast he wanted a commitment from her. Although he is a pretty fast mover I guess, falls in love fast and hard. Probably because of losing his mama so young and having a cold father. It happens.
Whoa! In Indy's defense, she said him, "Tell me. Tell me you love me." first
(the next day!) "O.K., I love you." he replies because she wanted to hear it.
She gets all giddy after having her vanity satifisfied. Indy seems to mean it,
but he was prompted to say the words. His behaviour is justifiable although
he should have just split the scene entirely. Indy's a real sucker in this one!

As far as him being a fast mover, I've been meaning to start on thread
regarding a major influence on that very subject.
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:50 PM   #53
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He'd been having such a rough time in the trenches, it's hard to blame him! Glad he got to have a little warmth and fun there.

Do you think he slept with Elizabeth Hurley in London, or Mata Hari was his first?
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:51 AM   #54
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Do you think he slept with Elizabeth Hurley in London, or Mata Hari was his first?

The book, The Mata Hari Affair by James Luceno says that Mata Hari was his first.
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Whoa! In Indy's defense, she said him, "Tell me. Tell me you love me." first
(the next day!) "O.K., I love you." he replies because she wanted to hear it.
She gets all giddy after having her vanity satifisfied. Indy seems to mean it,
but he was prompted to say the words. His behaviour is justifiable although
he should have just split the scene entirely. Indy's a real sucker in this one!

As far as him being a fast mover, I've been meaning to start on thread
regarding a major influence on that very subject.


No, no I agree. And Remy has been urging him to get it on for quite a few episodes now. He's 17, he's in a war, I do not blame him. And it was probably better for Indy to be with her then with the gals Remy found for them!


She definitely went after him, yes. I don't blame him, no. I just feel bad for him that he ended up thinking it was more real than it was. The boy had absolutely no problems with commitment!!!!! Definitely had terrible luck in that area of his life.
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:21 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tupogirl
She definitely went after him, yes. I don't blame him, no. I just feel bad for him that he ended up thinking it was more real than it was. The boy had absolutely no problems with commitment!!!!! Definitely had terrible luck in that area of his life.

I don't think he really had a grasp of the concept of commitment at that point. We hear him say "I love you" to all of his girlfriends in the show--even up through Hollywood Follies. I think that's really important. He has, in his mind's eye somewhere, an idealized version of his parents' semi-normal turn-of-the-century relationship. I don't think he understands completely what it means--it's just a combination of him thinking it's something he should say, hoping it'll please the girl in question, and hoping it'll get him closer to what he wants.

I was gonna make a point here about how Indy messed things up with Kate in Scandal of 1920 (she'd've been the best pick by far out of the three women in that movie) by interpreting their relationship in Mata Hari's terms...but the next thing you know I'd be writing syrupy fan-fic and drawing a bubble bath.

*takes a moment to remember what Indiana Jones is all about* Ok. I think I'm much better now.



TC
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:55 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by TalonCard
I don't think he really had a grasp of the concept of commitment at that point. We hear him say "I love you" to all of his girlfriends in the show--even up through Hollywood Follies. I think that's really important. He has, in his mind's eye somewhere, an idealized version of his parents' semi-normal turn-of-the-century relationship. I don't think he understands completely what it means--it's just a combination of him thinking it's something he should say, hoping it'll please the girl in question, and hoping it'll get him closer to what he wants.

I was gonna make a point here about how Indy messed things up with Kate in Scandal of 1920 (she'd've been the best pick by far out of the three women in that movie) by interpreting their relationship in Mata Hari's terms...but the next thing you know I'd be writing syrupy fan-fic and drawing a bubble bath.

*takes a moment to remember what Indiana Jones is all about* Ok. I think I'm much better now.



TC

LOL!! I haven't seen Scandal enough to remember it. He was ready to marry Vicky. He proposed when he was Swedish (can't remember the episode or the girl's name). He had Becky.

But I think he mistakes companionship and flirting/dating for love to fill that void in his life.Maybe there's a good reason Freud was in an episode, LOL!!!!!

Also if he had come out of the trenches, he may be thinking 'this is it, I could die next week, let's make what we can out of life'.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:24 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Flannery10
But, that episode, if it would have been aired, would have been the ultimate death of the series.

and if Prague would have aired then and I would have seen it, I would have kept watching the series.
My version is from the Austrian channel, ORF, so it did air in (at least) that country.
Incidentally, it was one of the last episodes to be shown so the series was almost dead, anyway.
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:31 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Whoa! In Indy's defense, she said him, "Tell me. Tell me you love me." first
(the next day!) "O.K., I love you." he replies because she wanted to hear it.
She gets all giddy after having her vanity satifisfied. Indy seems to mean it,
but he was prompted to say the words. His behaviour is justifiable although
he should have just split the scene entirely. Indy's a real sucker in this one!

As far as him being a fast mover, I've been meaning to start on thread
regarding a major influence on that very subject.

He does point out it's not the same as with Prentiss, mind.
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:49 PM   #60
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My favorite parts of the Vol 2., heck the whole series were the two movies(or four episodes) with Indy in Africa during WWI. First his adventure with the old commandoes, then the trek through the Congo and meeting Albert Schweitzer were great. Frank Darabont did a great job writing both. I also like the one with Catherine Zeta Jones. I love when Indy tells her "You are so beautiful." and she replies "I know."
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:48 AM   #61
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I keep calling Nancy Stratemeyer 'Becky'. I think I've lost my young Indy credence...
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:53 PM   #62
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This discussion on sexual power and motivation in 'Paris, 1916' has been one of the best I've ever seen on The Raven - I'm sorry I missed it! Thanks tupogirl, TalonCard and Stoo!

The way I see it, Indy (as most all men are) is completely ruled by his c•ck in that episode. He is being unfaithful to his idealised, pure love for Vicky, he even acknowledges this in the episode - yet he holds Mata Hari to a tremendous double standard - he wants to control her, stop her seeing or even looking at other men, create something between the two of them that isn't even there (he's just 'a little boy masquerading as a man'). Remarkable self-delusion at work.

She desires his youth, and he yearns for sex and her experience. That's all their relationship is based on, I think the spy subplot is just a red herring in what is a rather interesting exploration of the way men view (madonna/whore duality), exploit and try to control women. That episode could only be written by a woman, and Carrie did an amazing job.

One of my favourite moments in the entire series is when Indy kisses Mata for the first time - he, in all his deluded romanticism is right into it while her eyes just stare blankly into the distance as the camera pushes in.

Remarkable shot.
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Old 05-03-2008, 11:07 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matinee Idyll
This discussion on sexual power and motivation in 'Paris, 1916' has been one of the best I've ever seen on The Raven - I'm sorry I missed it! Thanks tupogirl, TalonCard and Stoo!

The way I see it, Indy (as most all men are) is completely ruled by his c•ck in that episode. He is being unfaithful to his idealised, pure love for Vicky, he even acknowledges this in the episode - yet he holds Mata Hari to a tremendous double standard - he wants to control her, stop her seeing or even looking at other men, create something between the two of them that isn't even there (he's just 'a little boy masquerading as a man'). Remarkable self-delusion at work.

She desires his youth, and he yearns for sex and her experience. That's all their relationship is based on, I think the spy subplot is just a red herring in what is a rather interesting exploration of the way men view (madonna/whore duality), exploit and try to control women. That episode could only be written by a woman, and Carrie did an amazing job.

One of my favourite moments in the entire series is when Indy kisses Mata for the first time - he, in all his deluded romanticism is right into it while her eyes just stare blankly into the distance as the camera pushes in.

Remarkable shot.

Thanks!

I've watched it a few times over the past few weeks and knowing how the whole episode goes, it is SO unsettling to see how she leans in towards him and the way she looks at him. He thinks with the little brain, she puts her manipulation skills to good use. Strangely enough, she reminds me of my sister (who once wanted to be a belly dancing missionary). She has the personality that men can't resist and women hate. Except she doesn't realize how attractive she is and doesn't use it to her advantage. Though there are certain family members she has always had wrapped around her fingers!

They dislike dealing with any negative feelings too and can act destructively because of that. My sister is much more balanced than Mata Hari though!
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Old 05-03-2008, 11:32 PM   #64
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I found this exchange in the episode soooo true and haunting:

Remy: Who is she? What is she like?
Indy: She's incredible.
Remy: They all are, what else?
Indy: Incredible is enough, for the moment.
Genevieve: Too bad that moment doesn't last.
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Old 05-03-2008, 11:37 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamwankenobi
I found this exchange in the episode soooo true and haunting:

Remy: Who is she? What is she like?
Indy: She's incredible.
Remy: They all are, what else?
Indy: Incredible is enough, for the moment.
Genevieve: Too bad that moment doesn't last.


It just gets more depressing the more we talk about it...
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:03 AM   #66
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Destructive is exactly the word to describe Mata Hari tg, I've known several people like that - it's scary, because they often drag alot of other people down with them.
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:15 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Matinee Idyll
She desires his youth, and he yearns for sex and her experience. That's all their relationship is based on, I think the spy subplot is just a red herring in what is a rather interesting exploration of the way men view (madonna/whore duality), exploit and try to control women. That episode could only be written by a woman, and Carrie did an amazing job.

The novel version of this episode has a subplot with a further motivation for Mata Hari: she hopes that Indy is well connected enough to get her a pass so she can visit her other lover. I'm not sure if this was cut from the episode for time, or if the author added it in order to draw more real-life history into the story. I suspect the latter.

TC
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Old 05-05-2008, 12:09 PM   #68
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Sorry to interrupt the ongoing Mata Hari discussion...

I rewatched Adventures in the Secret Service this weekend and was reminded again how much I miss the Old Indy bookends. I know there are already threads about Old Indy, but these two episodes exemplify the two biggest aspects lost along with the old man.

At the end of "Austria, 1917" Old Indy explains how the Kaiser discovered Emperor Karl's plans for a separate peace and "called him on the carpet" and gave him a "real dressing down". In the re-edit Colonel Dupuis has those same lines to explain why the war isn't over. However, Germany didn't really make that discovery until early 1918, and the info came from France (according to the documentaries on the DVD). So what's lost here is historical accuracy, which is a shame since both these episodes are based not just on historical people, but historical events.

And what's lost with the bookends for "Petrograd, 1917" is the coolness factor. Indy corrected the museum curator and backed up his story by pointing to a figure in a 75-year-old photograph and saying "That's me." (It gives me the same chill I got at the end of Curse of the Jackal when Old Indy points to the Jackal head in the museum case.)

So anyway, sorry for the interruption. Isn't that Mata Hari episode great?
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:59 PM   #69
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Some of the bookends were good like the one mentioned above and for the Africa ones where Indy is an emergency room talking to some redneck. Others were kind of dumb to me.

The Mata Hari episode was directed by Nicholas Roeg who also directed two great movies. Walkabout and Don't Look Now. The latter has probably the most intense sex scene between Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie(playing husband and wife). It's a very scary movie. Venice never looked so frightening on film.
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:46 AM   #70
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Junior Jones, Petrograd 1917 was my all time favorite book ends. And it's one of my favorite episodes. I've become slightly obsessed with Russia, the Revolution, the Romanovs...all that hope, just dashed. I get chills just thinking of the photograph they had in that scene.
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Old 05-06-2008, 03:26 PM   #71
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I'm watching it right now and I'm enjoying it. Every series needs lighter episodes and these two have at least kept me interested the whole way (which I can't say for MANY episodes).
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Old 05-06-2008, 04:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Matinee Idyll
Destructive is exactly the word to describe Mata Hari tg, I've known several people like that - it's scary, because they often drag alot of other people down with them.

They leave a trail of disaster in their wake.

In rewatching the episode too, she doesn't seem to care that people think she's a spy and just throws it off nonchalantly. I know if someone accused me of that, I would take it and the ramifications VERY serious.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:02 PM   #73
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I think it's funny that this article says "Welcome to France, Indiana Jones."

I imagine Indy's response would be: "Cannes, huh? Well, anything's better than Verdun."
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Old 05-16-2008, 02:39 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Adamwankenobi
I think it's funny that this article says "Welcome to France, Indiana Jones."

I imagine Indy's response would be: "Cannes, huh? Well, anything's better than Verdun."

'Where are the women?'
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:48 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by tupogirl
'Where are the women?'

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