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View Poll Results: Is Indiana Jones a good role model for young kids?
Yes, he's a perfect role model. 18 46.15%
Not really but I don't mindmy kids watching the movies. 17 43.59%
NO WAY! He took advantage of teenage Marion amongst other things. 1 2.56%
I have NO idea... 3 7.69%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-02-2010, 05:33 PM   #26
Lance Quazar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HJJNR
Absolutely! I think every hero has his/ her flaws otherwise they wouldnt be "real". The shooting is pretty hard to justify but as for the swordsman, I tell my son he shot it near him and he fainted lol.
The principles and qualities of Jones are what I mean about role model material and as I mentioned in previous postings elsewhere, it gets my son out and about more, wanting to find treasure and bullwhip onto tree branches lol.

Hey if he wasn't a good hero for young kids why would they have this?

There's nothing immoral about Indy shooting the swordsman. He was being attacked. By people who were trying to kill him. People who nearly succeeded. The swordsman was a participant in that attempted murder and was clearly planning to attack himself.

Deadly force was definitely an appropriate response.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by JuniorJones
I was refering to indy's moralilty. I would find it a strange thing to joke about. I can't remember how many times people have laughed when I've told them
the joke of the 12 year old girl, who hit on her 25 and he took advantage of this.

Maybe it's a bit like an old Clint Eastwood movie where as he would find the screaming native who would attack him, spit on his face, fight him, he would throw her to the floor, take off his belt, she would scream, he would force
himself on her and within a few minutes she will be loving it. What a hero. He was raping her and she loved it. A heart warming message to all rapist who like to justify their actions.

Prehaps a pedophile will quote Indy actions as a justification.

How my sides are splitting.

I think Lance is suggesting that perhaps Lucas/Spielberg were simply applying (or playing with) the morality of the period the movie was set in. For example, if you were making a cop thriller set in the 1970's and if you wanted to accurately reflect both the period and institution, it would be legitimate to incorporate language that isn't appropriate in today's world.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:44 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
There is nothing in the movie, or script, that remotely suggests Indiana Jones had sex with Marion Ravenwood without her consent. Furthermore, it's an assumption to believe Marion was literally under age. Itís more probable that she was talking figuratively. Are you really suggesting that Lucas/Spielbergís intention was to portray Indy as nothing more than a pedophile? Is it not possible they simply wanted to portray him as a roguish charmer, who was capable of taking advantage of a naive young woman?

Why not? He wasn't in love, he took advantage of her. It was that horrific for her that she went to live in nepal and tried to drink her life way.

I would so far as to say this may be some kind of wishful thinking on behalf of Lucas and Speilberg regarding the promiscuity of 12 year old girls.
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:01 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
I think Lance is suggesting that perhaps Lucas/Spielberg were simply applying (or playing with) the morality of the period the movie was set in. For example, if you were making a cop thriller set in the 1970's and if you wanted to accurately reflect both the period and institution, it would be legitimate to incorporate language that isn't appropriate in today's world.

That's right, inapporpriate sexual relationships with minors was rampant amongst cinematic serial hero adventures in the 1930 and 1940s.

Raiders is a modern take on the serials and would have been subject to morality of the time it was made.


If they wanted to add a bit accuracy prehaps they could have shown the true atrocities of the Nazi's rather than a Nazi saluting monkey.

The Marion/Indy relationship - It's uncomfortable and that's how Lucas intended it.

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Old 03-02-2010, 06:20 PM   #30
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I'm 21. Pretty much my entire life I've been watching Star Wars and Indiana Jones. From the mouth of a male who grew up idolizing Ford's characters, I say he is a perfect role model. Using my own experience as an example, children have no idea about the grayer aspects of the film. I have never, EVER thought about Indy and Marion's relationship before these recent threads other than "they had a relationship". I have never felt the urge to fire a gun or fight people. As a child, you watch the films and you see blacks and whites: it's the Nazis, it's scary cult guys with skeleton cups, it's the...Nazis again. EVERYTHING Indy does to them is completely justified because those are scary archetype baddies and that makes Indy, who fights them, a good guy. Indy is a perfect role model for young boys in particular because of this. I feel like some people who may see otherwise might have lost sight of these important aspects coming from their jaded, now-adult viewpoints. I'm not immune to this. Every time I go back and watch I catch more dialogue and draw conclusions that would never have occurred to me in my wildest dreams watching as a kid. But I think that is yet another part of the magic of Indy. He is all things at all different life stages. That's pretty awesome.
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow
I'm 21. Pretty much my entire life I've been watching Star Wars and Indiana Jones. From the mouth of a male who grew up idolizing Ford's characters, I say he is a perfect role model. Using my own experience as an example, children have no idea about the grayer aspects of the film. I have never, EVER thought about Indy and Marion's relationship before these recent threads other than "they had a relationship". I have never felt the urge to fire a gun or fight people. As a child, you watch the films and you see blacks and whites: it's the Nazis, it's scary cult guys with skeleton cups, it's the...Nazis again. EVERYTHING Indy does to them is completely justified because those are scary archetype baddies and that makes Indy, who fights them, a good guy. Indy is a perfect role model for young boys in particular because of this. I feel like some people who may see otherwise might have lost sight of these important aspects coming from their jaded, now-adult viewpoints. I'm not immune to this. Every time I go back and watch I catch more dialogue and draw conclusions that would never have occurred to me in my wildest dreams watching as a kid. But I think that is yet another part of the magic of Indy. He is all things at all different life stages. That's pretty awesome.

I agree with that, our cynical adult minds sometimes see the worst in most things; unfortunately thats down to that fact that we watch the news, read the papers (in between working and watching Indy of course) and see what "life" is actually like in these times. The innocence of a child watching the right film can be preserved and my childhood was a fun one, full of adventures and getting caked in mud and that has a LOT to do with Indy films. I know kids as young as 6 or 7 being allowed to watch Resident Evil and Terminator and that kind of film steals their innocence. There was mention of Indy's relationship with Marion in another thread in which it was said that he "technically" raped her due to the discussion in Raven ( Marion: "I was a child, I was in love") but nowhere in that conversation or any that I know of did any sexual act take place. I always read that as she was in love and he just took off. Does anyone here have a theory on this?
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:50 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
There's nothing immoral about Indy shooting the swordsman. He was being attacked. By people who were trying to kill him. People who nearly succeeded. The swordsman was a participant in that attempted murder and was clearly planning to attack himself.

Deadly force was definitely an appropriate response.

Good point. We are all taught (I assume) that if you are threatened and you fear for your life to protect yourself. OK Indy could have whipped the sword out of his hand but whats to say that that kind of unpredictable tactic may have sent that sword flying into someone in the crowd... we do what we think is right at the time.
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:55 PM   #33
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Lets open a "Did Indy rape Marion" thread, lol.

All these points are interesting but the one thing I feel is that there is NO mention of sexual intercourse as such. I always assumed that she was infatuated with him and he left and that was what hurt her... just a thought.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HJJNR
All these points are interesting but the one thing I feel is that there is NO mention of sexual intercourse as such. I always assumed that she was infatuated with him and he left and that was what hurt her... just a thought.

Actually nothing happened. They're fictional characters.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorJones
Why not? He wasn't in love, he took advantage of her. It was that horrific for her that she went to live in nepal and tried to drink her life way.

I would so far as to say this may be some kind of wishful thinking on behalf of Lucas and Speilberg regarding the promiscuity of 12 year old girls.

I think I can say with absolute certainty neither Lucas nor Spielberg ever truly intended to suggest she was anywhere near that young, and even if she was at one time meant to have been 15 or so, it's surely no longer the case. I'd think she was more like 17 - young enough to have regretted it when she was older, but not so young that she was a child being molested or anything like that. And FWIW, the Ultimate Guide does indeed cite a birthdate for her that would make her 17 at the time of the affair.

And she didn't go to Nepal to drink her life away; she went there because that's where her father Abner's work took him (and her with him), and when he died she didn't have an easy way to get back right away. Indy went to the Raven looking for Abner, remember?
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:15 PM   #36
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Marion had a hard life, and it wasn't all Indy's fault. After Abner died she had to resort to prostitution, as the 1979 screenplay and the novel tell:

"He [Abner] dragged me, a kid, halfway round the world on his crazy digs. Then he pops off. He didn't leave me a penny. Guess how I lived, Jones? I worked here. And I wasn't exactly the bartender, you understand?"

(Were those lines in the movie?)
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:05 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
(Were those lines in the movie?)

Certainly not.

Yeesh. Tough life is right for 'ol Marion.

Who knows how many "Mutts" there were before the one we know came to be
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:14 AM   #38
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Exclamation

It seems like the centerpoint of the discussion over the last few pages would be better suitable for its own thread. It might be inappropiate for this one, but nothing worth declaring a taboo over. At least in my mind.

Also, when you present interpretations of things that have happened offscreen, try not to dress them as factual statements, even if it sometimes seems tempting for a stronger effect. You know, to avoid extra trouble and unnecessary accusations if your main focus was in springing some discussion, not riling people up.
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:07 AM   #39
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I hear Indy V's "germ of an idea" is about Mutt's fling with Sallah's early teen daughter...and is in danger of having his "misunderstanding" cut off.

...and the wackiness ensues, as Marion and Indy come to terms with their own history:

I was a child, I was in love it was wrong and you knew it!

Fun for the whole family!

Wow another "Sharkey Attack" riling up the townsfolk!
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:42 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Crack that whip
And FWIW, the Ultimate Guide does indeed cite a birthdate for her that would make her 17 at the time of the affair.

FWIW, the Ultimate Guide also states Shorty wears a NY Yankees hat.

The Crystal Skull novel puts a new spin on how they met...(the daughter of a teacher very well may have "skipped" a grade or two but a 15 year old in a graduate class?).

Who knows how Indy V will revise history and sanitize Indiana Jones to push him further into the light.
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:58 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HJJNR
I tell my son he shot it near him and he fainted lol.
That honestly did make me lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HJJNR
Hey if he wasn't a good hero for young kids why would they have this?
I agree. You won't see an "I Can Read - Taxi Driver"
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by HJJNR
Hey if he wasn't a good hero for young kids why would they have this?

The same reason they made candy cigarettes and bubblegum cigars.



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Old 03-03-2010, 01:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
The same reason they made candy cigarettes and bubblegum cigars.





OOOOooooo, I loved those candy cigarettes....

And I don't smoke, so I guess they didn't get me hooked.
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:31 PM   #44
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OOOOooooo, I loved those candy cigarettes....

And I don't smoke, so I guess they didn't get me hooked.

...and thus closes the book on The Scientific Method!
Really the point is to refute a silly idea that filtered content in a childrens book makes Indy a Family Hero.

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Old 03-03-2010, 02:03 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorJones
That's right, inapporpriate sexual relationships with minors was rampant amongst cinematic serial hero adventures in the 1930 and 1940s.

Raiders is a modern take on the serials and would have been subject to morality of the time it was made.


If they wanted to add a bit accuracy prehaps they could have shown the true atrocities of the Nazi's rather than a Nazi saluting monkey.

The Marion/Indy relationship - It's uncomfortable and that's how Lucas intended it.

I'm left wondering whether or not you've actually even seen the movie... Perhaps Raiders of the Lost Ark is actually a euphemism for Indy's predilection for underage girls?
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:06 PM   #46
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Uncle George will sell Indy any way he can.

Therefore, there are sanitizied childrens' versions of the novels to sell to children, and the genuine Indy novels for adults who don't mind a little blood and guts with their dose of anti-hero.

Indy being complex in character, as opposed to being defined in black or white terms, means that he is wonderfully problematical.
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:09 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
FWIW, the Ultimate Guide also states Shorty wears a NY Yankees hat.

The Crystal Skull novel puts a new spin on how they met...(the daughter of a teacher very well may have "skipped" a grade or two but a 15 year old in a graduate class?).

Who knows how Indy V will revise history and sanitize Indiana Jones to push him further into the light.

It's 'Greedo shot first' all over again. George just won't leave things be. Let rogues be rogues, not knights in shining armour.
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:53 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
FWIW, the Ultimate Guide also states Shorty wears a NY Yankees hat.

Hence my use of "FWIW," since I do indeed acknowledge the many shortcomings of the allegedly Ultimate Guide in matters pertaining to dating and chronology. That said, what better sources are there for Marion's birthdate? As I noted, Marion being 17 at the time of the affair does easily still fit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
The Crystal Skull novel puts a new spin on how they met...(the daughter of a teacher very well may have "skipped" a grade or two but a 15 year old in a graduate class?).

Well, there you go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Who knows how Indy V will revise history and sanitize Indiana Jones to push him further into the light.

He's always going to be rough, with some dark areas, but he was never intended to be an outright villain (not even in those early conceptual stages for Raiders), which is how he's being interpreted here. Some say it's his "darkness" that makes him interesting; I think this is not entirely off the mark, but not quite there either - I think it's his flaws which make him interesting, but that's not the same thing. At the end of the day, he's still a heroic figure, just not a perfect one. I certainly don't think he's a monster, or even a purely self-interested mercenary with no ideals at all, nor was he ever intended to be, and I'm frankly somewhat baffled by folks who apparently not only see him as one, but prefer him as one...
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:04 PM   #49
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I doubt Indy V (if it happens) will ever catch the Yin/Yang Dark/Light nature of Indy like we were presented in the first film:

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Old 03-03-2010, 05:53 PM   #50
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The only thing I can think of that might seriously indicate that Indy is a bad role model, is when he holds Willie at knife point (well ... fork point) in Club Obi Wan to get the antidote back.

Everything else he does is, well, what any action hero does.

Given that the Indy movies are not gruesome, the real question is "Do action hero stars make good role models?".

I can tell you from experience that watching Indy didn't have a negative affect on me a kid. The movies were more fun than they were violent.
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