Plot speculation - let your theories fly

I kinda think I'm on to something here:

According to the legend of the ‘twisted hairs’ - a tribe representing and made-up of the ancient American Indians from both North and South, there are in existence ‘thirteen’ crystal skulls. These skulls represented ‘twelve’ celestial inhabited planets, and were originally kept in a pyramid in a circle formation of great power. A ‘thirteenth’ larger crystal skull represented the collective consciousness of the twelve, and was placed in the centre of the circle. This circle formation of the twelve crystal skulls with one larger crystal skull in the centre, was known as the ‘Ark’. I wonder if this 'Ark' also referred to Israel and it's 12 around 1 configuration instead of the wooden chest? The Ark of the Covenant would then translate as 'the 'circle' of the Covenant (agreement).

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The Russians have to round up 12 already discovered skulls from museums, giant government warehouses, and statues at Marshall college, but I've got a feeling it's that large center skull that's going to be the problem. Is it just me, or is that mention of the Ark of the Covenant seem a little too connected to another Indy movie ... hmm, where have I heard that before?

It’s not only the Native American Indians who have a twelve plus one myth or legend that resembles that of ancient Israel and Sumeria - the British people do also in the form of King Arthur and the twelve knights of the ‘round table’. It’s very interesting that the twelve tribes of Israel when encamped in the desert, would form a circle around the tribe of Levi and the tabernacle, which housed the Ark of the Covenant. We see this formation of a circle of twelve surrounding a thirteenth in the legend of the crystal skulls, could this be the same for King Arthur and the twelve knights of the ‘round’ table? It is interesting that the table was round - tables are usually presented as long rectangular furniture, especially in the early periods of British and European history. King Arthur promised his twelve knights that he would return, Quetzacoatl promised his twelve assistants or followers that he would return, Jesus promised his twelve disciples that he would return - all were the thirteenth factor governing the twelve.

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Jesus and his disciples just an allegory for the skulls? That would sound pretty offensive to some ears. But what if this part was left out, and the skulls were just a part of their own stand alone myth. Again, I've heard all this before.

"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness."

Malachi 3: 1-3.

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Indiana Jones and the Quest for the Covenant, anyone? How about Indiana Jones and the City of the Gods? Obviously, the messenger would be some sort of alien or alien technology. It has to be. Why would Communist Russians be looking for a religious themed artifact. Plus: 1957 - space race. It makes sense.

Oh. And that Crucifix skull business. I don't think Tyler Nelson misheard anything. If I had to guess, I would say that Indy is successful in finding the center skull, but steals away one and hides one of the other minor twelve skulls and hides it so the Russians still can't go through with their plans. Or they've dubbed that large center skull the "Crucifix skull." Either or.


(source - http://groups.msn.com/StarChildren/)

WOW.

Where are those quotes from? You've done a really good job of tying known information together with that stuff, in one fell swoop. It makes perfect sense to me.

I can see a really, really cool Indy movie coming out of that information.

Yeah, but doesn't anyone here think that's a bit too complicated for a Indy movie? I mean, not everybody is an eager historian or researcher when they go to the movies. This would have to be simplified to fit the story and for the audience to follow the plot. I mean, in Raiders it was more simple. Ark is in Tanis and you need the Staff of Ra in the Map Room to find the exact location in Tanis at the right time of day. Ark has Pandora's Box effect. Ark got there because of an Egyptian pharoah and sandstorm wipes out Tanis. See pretty simple. Even the Grail and Sankara stones were simple.

My point is in order for people to get it and follow the plot (especially if they trying hard to target teens) it's going to have to be just as easy to explain. Which is why much of this stuff that is being found out, will need to be left out. I re-read those Empire interviews last night and it seems that all that controversial stuff is left out and only the supernatural element will remain. Such comparisons of religious stories or recounts don't offend me personally, but I imagine would offend a lot of people involved in a particular religion. What really offends me is the idea of aliens in an Indiana Jones movie. If they just left the aliens as more an implied or at best, completely unexplained I would probably feel better about the idea.

Well, I found some Cherokee tale about the skulls...

?You seek to know the origins of this clear receptacle which you call ?the Crystal Skull.? I tell you that it was made many, many thousands of years ago by beings of a higher intelligence? It was formed by a civilization before those you call ?the Maya.? Our level of civilization was, as you say ?at that time? far in advance of that which you now have by many factors. This receptacle contains the minds of many and the minds of one?The thoughts and knowledge are crystallized into this receptacle ?

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Seems interesting, but it lacks the depth of the judeochristian imaginery...

Each of the receptacles contains the information where the others are. We would give you one where we left markings upon the Earth near the area you call ?Nazca lines? in Peru, although there are also ones in the high places of the mountains. There will be one of Blue in the region you call ?South America?? There will be another found when the lost civilization that you call ?Atlantis? rises to you?and we would urge you to explore the ocean bed??but we will direct you, will show you that which you call a ?temple.?

This was an area of communication between the Earth and the other Star systems?when all the receptacles are placed together you will be keepers of wondrous knowledge? Light and sound will be the key, when the right harmonic vibration is produced you will have the information you require?but the time is not yet.

But you shall not find them all as you say, ?at this time.? It would be too dangerous for man to have this information?too early in your evolution?because sadly mankind still seeks to better all the original destruction of our time.

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here is the link...
Elders of the Twisted Hairs Society

Well, it could be done very simply. Russians have obtained the 12 minor crystal skulls. Need bigger 13th skull to proceed with malevolent plans (whatever those may be). Indy must get the big skull first, or reclaim it from the Russians.

Insert the subplot elements; Marion, Mutt, Abner. Explain the important aspects of the mythology the way it was done in the other films: something similar to the blackboard scene in Raiders, or the "I've heard this bedtime story before" scene in Crusade. Add a "teaser" prologue, build the story around global locations and action sequences, and that's it. Indy 4. Could be wonderful.

Like you said, the Ark story in Raiders was presented much more simply than it could have been. Same with the Grail. Of course, they'll hone the skull stuff down to a digestible level for Indy 4.

There's been this theory of alien visitors floating around...that somehow ancient civilizations were helped or influenced in some way by aliens. Perhaps this is what the Russians are after. They want to gather the skulls to receive help from the same visitor that helped the Mayans (a Quetzalcoatl type figure?). Maybe that's all the alien involvement that would be in the film. They are alluded to, and perhaps some brief shots of them at the end.

In that scenario, to complain that aliens don't belong in Indy would be tantamount to complaining that ghosts don't belong in Indy (which people have said). At the end of Raiders we see spirits, ghost-like entities; but they are in no way a major plot point. They represent the power of God, but it's not a "ghost movie" or anything. Similarly, it's totally possible to involve aliens in the same kind of way, so that they represent something important, but are mostly only alluded to and not so important that it becomes a movie about aliens.

I still don't, and probably never will see what's so "offensive" about involving aliens in the plot. Like Nazis weren't offensive? It's acceptable to watch a movie with swastikas everywhere, but to allude to alien visitors is somehow vulgar and out of place? I'm not targeting you Violet Indy, just an opinion shared by many that I don't understand.

Just a Theory

Hey guys,

I have been reading this site for a while, as I am a big Indy fan and hungry for new information.

Kick this one around and tell me if it seems like a plausible way to incorporate the Ark and the Crystal Skulls.

Raiders portrays the Ark as being sort of a portal that wrathful angels materialize from and do God's dirty work. This is fairly consistant with what the experts in the bible think the Ark was (at least in the myths). Given this point that the Ark contains a "gateway" of sorts then maybe Indy uses the Ark to "dispose" of one or more of the crystal skulls at the end of the film to keep the Russians or even the Americans from using them for their dastardly purpose. I don' know how this matches up with what we already know about the film, but it seemed like an interesting way of bringing in the Ark in a semi minor way.

In other words Indy dumps the skulls into the Ark to send them back to god/maker/Alien overlords who made them and maybe the Ark. Further conections between the Ark and the skulls could be explored in the process of making the plan to bannish these dangerous items back to those who can better contain or use their powers.

Let me know what you guys think of this idea.

Welcome to the Raven !

I like your idea but I think it sounds to ...i dont know how to put it ,i guess it sounds like something that could hapen in a kids movie .Theres nothing wrong with that Indy is for children (and adults) ,it just sounds like not indy type stuff.But it does sound pretty cool

So after I did my research on the crystal skulls (found on the previous page of this thread), I've been thinking more about specific plot points:

I think the Soviets will come upon the information about the crystal skulls in some secret bunker on their march to Berlin during the waning days of WWII. The Nazis have already did a lot of the leg work for them, having gathered a number of the skulls together. There is also a good deal of information on a South American temple, and speculation on where it could be located. Unfortunately for the Nazis, time and money ran out on them before they could turn any of this work into reality ...

Of course, all of that would never actually be shown on screen - only alluded to in the course of some conversation.

After the war it is well known that there was a huge grab for secret Nazi projects and scientists (for additional information, read about "Operation Paperclip"). The Soviets look things over, and decide that maybe those Nazis were on to something. They, of course, dismiss any references to the occult or supernatural, but still feel like there may be something in it for them. The space race is just starting to heat up, and they are in dire need of whatever advantage they can get. Advanced otherworldly technology could be just the ticket.

Problem:

They're a few minor skulls short of the twelve that are needed in total, plus they need that large center "crucifix" skull. First the Soviets show up at Marshall and try to get Indy on board. He refuses, and they liberate a skull hidden inside the head of the statue dedicated to the memory of Marcus. Here, Indy meets up with Mutt for the first time as they try to chase them down. Andy hey! Who is that? Why Abner is around too. The senior Ravenwood fills him in on what is going on and then it's off to beat the Russians to the next skull - located in a private museum located around Marrakesh, Morocco ... a known den of black market archaeological dealings.

This would be a recycling of the cut General Hok scene from Raiders, with both Indy and the Soviets racing to steal the skull first. The Russians win, and pocket their prize, but not after a sword versus whip battle between Indy and Cate Blanchett’s character.

The final minor skull needed is kept in the giant "Raiders" warehouse, which we will discover is located at Area 51. Here again, the Soviets beat out Indy, who is apprehended by the US military. The soldiers hardly buy his story, but he is still released.

The Soviets next show up in South America, following their looted Nazi maps through the jungle to discover the final skull. Indy is still close behind, but is really only in it as a favor to Abner ... and a bit of that fortune and glory. This all changes when Marion is kidnapped. Indy, Mutt, and their South American contact Mac launch an effort to rescue her, and this is where that circular bladed monstrosity comes into play, as well as one of those weird boat/car combinations shooting over a waterfall. In the course of the action, Indy and Mutt find themselves going down in some quicksand, and finally find out they are related. Indy surrenders himself to allow Mac and Mutt to escape, and is then told he must recover the crucifix skull for the Soviets.

This he agrees to, as the Russians dance in victory around the campfire in the night.

Back at the ranch, Mac and Mutt attempt to follow Abner's map and find the temple first ... which they do ... only to discover Nazis! Many Nazi expatriates fled to South America after WWII, and really, this is the only explanation I can come up with those Nazi soldiers milling around the Downey studio. So here we have this this rag-tag squadron of Nazis who probably don't even know the war is long since over, or maybe they know it's over, but have set up their own thing ... think Kurtz and his gang from Apocalypse Now.

Mutt and Mac now find themselves captured as well, but not for long, as the Soviets arrive in short order and wipe out the Nazis. Indy recovers the skull and now it's time for the big finale. The twelve minor skulls are appropriately placed in a circle on the temple floor at the edge of a giant spiraling staircase, and the crucifix skull is locked into place in the center. Everyone stares up at the opening carved in the temple roof, directly above the staircase, waiting for their ET fix. Here comes Lucas' big surprise he's been so vague about. The Mayans typically built their temples atop the remains of older temples, and the older temples were built atop even older temples. Somewhere, at the heart of all this particular stack of limestone, is an ancient spaceship which was revered by the early Mayans and consequently built around. It rumbles to life and initiates the partial collapse of the pyramid. Indy and the crew go sliding off into the staircase, holding on and trying to claw their way back out while the skulls bounce by them and into the darkness. The ship emerges and we get a passing foggy glance at ET behind the wheel. What? He was in suspended animation or something. Anyway. Any remaining baddies get dispatched of by the ship and, as ET realizes that humanity isn’t ready for what they have to offer, the ship streaks off into the night sky. Indy gives Mutt his hat. We chow down on that last handful of popcorn, and get a final view of the crucifix skull peaking out from the rubble.


Notice how I left out the wedding. I'm trying not to think about that right now. Or ever.

I like it. I think mutt will find indy because his mom is missing etc. also, no nazis, I think someone got confused with their reporting, probably lots of russian soldiers. I'm not sure about collecting the skulls along the way? also, hopefully not a huge spaceship.

commontone said:

Well, it could be done very simply. Russians have obtained the 12 minor crystal skulls. Need bigger 13th skull to proceed with malevolent plans (whatever those may be). Indy must get the big skull first, or reclaim it from the Russians.

Insert the subplot elements; Marion, Mutt, Abner. Explain the important aspects of the mythology the way it was done in the other films: something similar to the blackboard scene in Raiders, or the "I've heard this bedtime story before" scene in Crusade. Add a "teaser" prologue, build the story around global locations and action sequences, and that's it. Indy 4. Could be wonderful.

Like you said, the Ark story in Raiders was presented much more simply than it could have been. Same with the Grail. Of course, they'll hone the skull stuff down to a digestible level for Indy 4.

There's been this theory of alien visitors floating around...that somehow ancient civilizations were helped or influenced in some way by aliens. Perhaps this is what the Russians are after. They want to gather the skulls to receive help from the same visitor that helped the Mayans (a Quetzalcoatl type figure?). Maybe that's all the alien involvement that would be in the film. They are alluded to, and perhaps some brief shots of them at the end.

In that scenario, to complain that aliens don't belong in Indy would be tantamount to complaining that ghosts don't belong in Indy (which people have said). At the end of Raiders we see spirits, ghost-like entities; but they are in no way a major plot point. They represent the power of God, but it's not a "ghost movie" or anything. Similarly, it's totally possible to involve aliens in the same kind of way, so that they represent something important, but are mostly only alluded to and not so important that it becomes a movie about aliens.

I still don't, and probably never will see what's so "offensive" about involving aliens in the plot. Like Nazis weren't offensive? It's acceptable to watch a movie with swastikas everywhere, but to allude to alien visitors is somehow vulgar and out of place? I'm not targeting you Violet Indy, just an opinion shared by many that I don't understand.

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Not offended at all. I think what the majority including myself is worried about, is a scene maybe like the ending of Close Encounters being in Indy or even those horrendous scenes of the spider-like aliens from Saucermen from Mars script making a re-appearance in KOTCS. If they are alluded to, which was my point but you took it further, then I wouldn't have much of a problem. I just don't like the idea of Indy coming face to face with an alien basically, UNLESS it is human-like and is similar to the Grail Knight meeting.

Aliens doesn't seem Indy-like to me because Indy is meant to be set in that Old World type atmosphere and aliens rarely if they ever do, fit into such a world. Regardless how you put it, seems to be the most logical and most likely of the theories that I have seen. Which can only make me wonder....Anyway, a lot of people have written some really complicated and long-winded stuff, that as a film student, I struggle to see how that can be in a film like Indy, the way they have set up the films in the past and all.

I think the "surprise" is that harrison is still so physical as indy and kicks major ass.

The surprise will be that none of us will be slightly right about the plot!!!

I'm predicting that the 'legend' in IJ4 involves a lost city who's inhabitants worshiped god(s) via one of the lost crystal skulls (the authentic one). The gods (aliens), in return, would grant their followers with divine knowledge. With this knowledge, came the advancement of the city. I think the skull will act as medium for communication. The subtle alien element, I don't believe, will be revealed before the end of the film (just that in the end it, the audience will understand that these Gods were an Alien civilization). I slightly feel that it may be that the lost city is Atlantis, but Indy will be searching for the skull in the jungles of South America, where the skull had come to rest (and was used) after Atlantis sank.

Metatron's Cube

I wrote about this in a different thread but it was a tangent there...

Metatron's Cube is something that seems likely to make an appearance in Indy 4. In any case, it fits what we know and is very Indy-esque. Metatron was an angel who challenged God, and who is thought to have stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac. Anyway, there is a famous pattern called the Fruit Of Life. It is a pattern of 13 circles that is said to contain all the knowledge of the universe. If you draw lines between the center of any one circle to the center of all the other circles, you create all the basic geometric shapes. Once this is done it is known as Metatron's Cube.

Anyway, it is an arrangement of 12 circles around a single central circle. It would be the perfect thing to be on an altar where the crystal skulls would be placed, to harness their powers. Apparently it's considered a very powerful glyph with a lot of meaning in Christianity and Judaism. Supposedly it was "created with Metatron's soul."

Seeing that the Ark is making a comeback, it seems this is a perfect link between Christianity and the crystal skulls.

Scroll down a ways to see whats I'm speaking of..

Fruit of Life/Metatron's Cube

commontone said:

Metatron

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Sounds like a Transformer

so anyway so this means that if the Russians obtain all the skulls they'll know all the knowledge of the universe.

I have to say, some of you guys, even if your speculation is completely WRONG (in parts), you could still get together and write a cracking script with a cracking macguffin. Honestly.

Kudos to those who are posting ideas here. Brilliant.

Berg

commontone said:

I wrote about this in a different thread but it was a tangent there...

Metatron's Cube is something that seems likely to make an appearance in Indy 4. In any case, it fits what we know and is very Indy-esque. Metatron was an angel who challenged God, and who is thought to have stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac. Anyway, there is a famous pattern called the Fruit Of Life. It is a pattern of 13 circles that is said to contain all the knowledge of the universe. If you draw lines between the center of any one circle to the center of all the other circles, you create all the basic geometric shapes. Once this is done it is known as Metatron's Cube.

Anyway, it is an arrangement of 12 circles around a single central circle. It would be the perfect thing to be on an altar where the crystal skulls would be placed, to harness their powers. Apparently it's considered a very powerful glyph with a lot of meaning in Christianity and Judaism. Supposedly it was "created with Metatron's soul."

Seeing that the Ark is making a comeback, it seems this is a perfect link between Christianity and the crystal skulls.

Scroll down a ways to see whats I'm speaking of..

Fruit of Life/Metatron's Cube

Click to expand...

This is very interesting and fun to speculate. Metatron does come from Judaism and ofcourse Kaballah. It is also interesting that the 12 or 13 circles of the skull legend is similiar to the Sefirot of Kabbalah. Metatron is also mentioned in the book of Enoch as well, if I am not mistaken. This part is definitely interesting. The book of Enoch talks alot about fallen angels and the nephilim of Genesis 6, where angels mated with humans making the giants. Many believe these giants were the gods and goddesses of many ancient religions.This would also bring in the alien element. Some believe,as we all know that aliens are responsible for the technology of the ancients. From the spiritual believers POV, it is these fallen angels/demons that are responsible for UFO sightings/abductions, etc. It can go either way. I am looking forward to seeing what Indy 4 brings us.

sarah navarro said:

Sounds like a Transformer

so anyway so this means that if the Russians obtain all the skulls they'll know all the knowledge of the universe.

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I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if Optimus Prime will make a cameo. I just hope the Transformers don't urinate oil on anyone in this one.

One mystery that I haven't seen discussed is what's the deal with the beheaded statues on Marshall campus?

Do we even know for sure that the detached head is significant to the plot? Isn't it possible it was just a production thing, like Steven saying, "I don't like the way the head looks on the statue. Make another one that looks like [whatever] and replace it." Or maybe it was always a separate part they had to attach..