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Old 05-22-2018, 09:32 AM   #76
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Disney's constant pandering and agenda-pushing in Star Wars makes me extremely concerned for the future of Indy. I'd rather they just leave the series alone at this point.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:57 AM   #77
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Disney's constant pandering and agenda-pushing in Star Wars makes me extremely concerned for the future of Indy. I'd rather they just leave the series alone at this point.

What agenda are they pushing?
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:44 PM   #78
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Their agenda is pro-third-wave, intersectional feminism, basically. I mean they just announced that Lando is "pansexual" for example and apparently he flirts with Han in the new film. The leading figures in the new films are all women, the antagonists white males, and even the white males who are not antagonists are shown to be deeply flawed [IE, Han is a deadbeat dad and horrible husband, Luke a failure who considered murdering a child and then cowardly hid himself away while the galaxy burned] and/or failures who need to die in order to be redeemed.
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:50 PM   #79
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Dialogue in Solo has been interpreted as sugesting that Lando could be pansexual, therefore making him sexually interested in men, woman, and droids, which could include both Han and Landos companion female co-pilot droid L3-37. Co-writer Jonathan Kasdan opinionated that Lando is pansexual, stating, "There's a fluidity to Donald and Billy Dee's [portrayal of Lando’s] sexuality [...] I would have loved to have gotten a more explicitly LGBT character into this movie. I think it's time, certainly, for that, and I love the fluidity ― sort of the spectrum of sexuality that Donald appeals to and that droids are a part of. He doesn’t make any hard and fast rules."
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:25 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Their agenda is pro-third-wave, intersectional feminism, basically. I mean they just announced that Lando is "pansexual" for example and apparently he flirts with Han in the new film. The leading figures in the new films are all women, the antagonists white males, and even the white males who are not antagonists are shown to be deeply flawed [IE, Han is a deadbeat dad and horrible husband, Luke a failure who considered murdering a child and then cowardly hid himself away while the galaxy burned] and/or failures who need to die in order to be redeemed.

Skip to 17:39 in this video, there is no agenda: https://youtu.be/KkjtDgjpz98

And even if their was, why are the female characters so weak, especially Rey?

Rey was so weak in the last Jedi it was embarrassing. Even Luke was never weak like that. She spends the first half of the movie “needing a man” - Luke to save the galaxy. When he refuses she doesn’t go “Well I’m an all powerful girl so I can do this by myself” instead she goes, well I need help from another man - Kylo. And when Snoke (another powerful man) throws her around like a rag doll, Kylo saves her. Even at the end of the movie it’s Luke who has to save everyone’s ass. She was so weak it was unreal. Hard to root for someone who needs men to save her all the time. Episode 9 needs to make Rey a stronger female character, otherwise nobody is going to root for her anymore.

And the one powerful woman character they had in the film - Captain Phasma just gets destroyed by Finn like she was nothing.

Some people think Rey was too powerful in the Force Awakens because she beat Kylo Ren, but they didn’t pay attention to the fact that she grew up with a melee weapon to protect her. So she’s good at it. Plus we saw what Chewies blaster was doing to stormtroopers all throughout the movie, and Kylo took it straight to the gut and was bleeding our big time when they fought. It’s no different from Luke growing up piloting and shooting well on Tatooine and blowing up the Death Star with the force in his first ever film out of nowhere.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:01 PM   #81
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Disney's Next strong female lead

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Old 05-22-2018, 06:23 PM   #82
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Worrying about "political correctness" when we don't even have an inkling of what the story is going to be about isn't a great look for fans. In addition to feeling like tilting at windmills, it showcases a stunning like of perspective. If Crystal Skull had been awash in "political correctness," it would have been like the 134th thing wrong with it.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:23 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Face_Palm
What agenda are they pushing?

It's more of the same: forced diversity, female characters who have no flaws, bizarre sexual traits (making Lando pansexual) and cramming anti-capitalist junk in when they can (like the Canto Bight bit from TLJ). Star Wars has gone from something that was fun for everyone to being a divisive vehicle for people like Kennedy and Johnson to shove their politics into. We've had two films to explain why Rey is so powerful and we still know nothing. Luke, one of the strongest Jedi in history, is reducing to a bitter old man who does next to nothing. Nearly every male in The Last Jedi is shown to be impulsive, clueless, or weak. It's clear that Disney isn't interested in writing great stories or compelling characters, but rather preaching to their audience and shoving SJW politics into their narratives. Why can't they just write compelling characters without it having to boil down to race and gender? It's baffling.

I liked The Force Awakens and loved Rogue One, so I'm not just some hater jumping on a bandwagon. However, after The Last Jedi my enthusiasm is completely gone. Fans are pissed off about the hijacking of their franchise and the condescending replies from Lucasfilm and Disney aren't helping. I'm at the point where I don't want Indy V. I'm scared of what it will become and what lengths they'll go to in order to "update" that character as well.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:09 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyBuff
It's more of the same: forced diversity, female characters who have no flaws, bizarre sexual traits (making Lando pansexual) and cramming anti-capitalist junk in when they can (like the Canto Bight bit from TLJ). Star Wars has gone from something that was fun for everyone to being a divisive vehicle for people like Kennedy and Johnson to shove their politics into. We've had two films to explain why Rey is so powerful and we still know nothing. Luke, one of the strongest Jedi in history, is reducing to a bitter old man who does next to nothing. Nearly every male in The Last Jedi is shown to be impulsive, clueless, or weak. It's clear that Disney isn't interested in writing great stories or compelling characters, but rather preaching to their audience and shoving SJW politics into their narratives. Why can't they just write compelling characters without it having to boil down to race and gender? It's baffling.

I liked The Force Awakens and loved Rogue One, so I'm not just some hater jumping on a bandwagon. However, after The Last Jedi my enthusiasm is completely gone. Fans are pissed off about the hijacking of their franchise and the condescending replies from Lucasfilm and Disney aren't helping. I'm at the point where I don't want Indy V. I'm scared of what it will become and what lengths they'll go to in order to "update" that character as well.


Hollywood literally can’t do anything right. First they are white washing, now that films are more diverse people complain about forced diversity.

Disney pumped out 17 MCU movies in a row with a white male lead. Nobody claimed they had an agenda. 17!! Then one comes along - Black Panther and now they have an “agenda”. Get freaking real. Same with star wars. Did the first 6 films have a white male agenda with lead characters? These complaints are literally rediculous.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:19 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Face_Palm
Hollywood literally can’t do anything right. First they are white washing, now that films are more diverse people complain about forced diversity.

Disney pumped out 17 MCU movies in a row with a white male lead. Nobody claimed they had an agenda. 17!! Then one comes along - Black Panther and now they have an “agenda”. Get freaking real. Same with star wars. Did the first 6 films have a white male agenda with lead characters? These complaints are literally ridiculous.

The complaints say far more about the people doing the complaining than about Disney. People see what they want to see in these things. If you go into these movies suspicious about Disney's "agenda," then you will find things to prove your fears. It is one of the clearest examples of confirmation bias that I've seen in a while.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:19 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Lambonius
The complaints say far more about the people doing the complaining than about Disney. People see what they want to see in these things. If you go into these movies suspicious about Disney's "agenda," then you will find things to prove your fears. It is one of the clearest examples of confirmation bias that I've seen in a while.

Yep, exactly.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:55 PM   #87
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It certainly won't be resolved on this message board.

Yes, there is an agenda. Yes, Disney dot corp is a part of it. Yes, the degree to which one sees it is totally weighted against their confirmation bias; but this has long been a topic debated socially since shows like Married with Children and The Simpsons first hit the airways. A full study of the emasculated male and empowered female as portrayed by the ever propagating medias would require it's own, heavily moderated thread.

That said, (as even being one who threw out straws of my own opinion) until we have any information concerning male and female casting in Indy V, we should all steer this back towards PC elements easily portrayed and identified in the Indy Universe
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:48 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face_Palm
Hollywood literally can’t do anything right. First they are white washing, now that films are more diverse people complain about forced diversity.

Disney pumped out 17 MCU movies in a row with a white male lead. Nobody claimed they had an agenda. 17!! Then one comes along - Black Panther and now they have an “agenda”. Get freaking real. Same with star wars. Did the first 6 films have a white male agenda with lead characters? These complaints are literally rediculous.

The only thing ridiculous are the people who are turning a blind eye to what they're doing. The issue isn't the gender or ethnicity of the characters; I couldn't care less about that. It's the blatant fact that Kathleen Kennedy has openly stated that she wants more females in Star Wars and J.J. Abrams saying that anyone who disliked the new films must be afraid of strong women, ironic given that Princess Leia is a strong woman who has always been adored by the fans. Rey is a poorly written character who hasn't developed or been given any depth over the course of two films. She was put there purely because they wanted a female lead, which is fine, but she's dull and has character traits that make her easy to relate to. Now we have Lando, one of the most interesting characters with a strong arc in the original trilogy, being cast as a pansexual. Will anyone care about Rose Tico 20 years from now? Not a chance. They want diverse characters there just for the sake of saying they have them, which makes no sense. When it comes time to actually give them an arc and personality they come up dry, as if we're supposed to give them a free pass based on gender and skin color. That's insulting.

Let's face it: Disney is all about diversity and not about characters. What we want are characters who are both strong AND well executed. Very few, if any, of the current crop have been given much to do since The Force Awakens. I'm also not sure what your comments about Black Panther and the MCU have to do with it. I never commented on those films and I don't have an issue with them. The Indy films have always managed to steer clear of these hurdles. Marion was tough without feeling forced. Elsa had her own agenda and wrote her own fate. Willy was admittedly silly but that was part of the fun. Short Round made sense due to the film opening in Shanghai. They always managed to incorporate a wide variety of characters into the films due to the locations and story necessities. It's a big part of why they've aged so well. I just can't see the current Disney crop doing that without trying to make some kind of statement.

Last edited by IndyBuff : 05-24-2018 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:12 AM   #89
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Amen. Excellently said.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:21 AM   #90
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I don't disagree that the newer characters are weaker than the originals, but they're not weak BECAUSE they're diverse. They're weak because the writing in general is generated from a corporate machine as opposed to a young visionary filmmaker trying to prove his art. Literally every new character, males included, is weaker. We are mostly on the same page in terms of opinions of the new versus the originals, but singling out the women as the root of the problems is silly.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:38 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Lambonius
I don't disagree that the newer characters are weaker than the originals, but they're not weak BECAUSE they're diverse. They're weak because the writing in general is generated from a corporate machine as opposed to a young visionary filmmaker trying to prove his art. Literally every new character, males included, is weaker. We are mostly on the same page in terms of opinions of the new versus the originals, but singling out the women as the root of the problems is silly.


Exactly this. Honestly diversity in Star Wars has been a long time coming. It’s not anymore “forced” than the first 6 films “forced” male white characters.
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:44 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambonius
I don't disagree that the newer characters are weaker than the originals, but they're not weak BECAUSE they're diverse. They're weak because the writing in general is generated from a corporate machine as opposed to a young visionary filmmaker trying to prove his art. Literally every new character, males included, is weaker. We are mostly on the same page in terms of opinions of the new versus the originals, but singling out the women as the root of the problems is silly.

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Amen. Excellently said.


Holy sh*t We agree on something. This round is on me.
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Old 05-24-2018, 12:35 PM   #93
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Exactly this. Honestly diversity in Star Wars has been a long time coming. It’s not anymore “forced” than the first 6 films “forced” male white characters.

Ignorance is bliss
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Old 05-24-2018, 01:58 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Lambonius
I don't disagree that the newer characters are weaker than the originals, but they're not weak BECAUSE they're diverse. They're weak because the writing in general is generated from a corporate machine as opposed to a young visionary filmmaker trying to prove his art. Literally every new character, males included, is weaker. We are mostly on the same page in terms of opinions of the new versus the originals, but singling out the women as the root of the problems is silly.

I'm not just singling out the women. Kennedy and the other producers have made a concerted effort to point out that they're putting women at the forefront. I just want great characters, regardless of gender or ethnicity. Having diversity just for the sake of it isn't enough to get a free pass. We've had better in the past and should have better writing now.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:12 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by IndyBuff
I'm not just singling out the women. Kennedy and the other producers have made a concerted effort to point out that they're putting women at the forefront. I just want great characters, regardless of gender or ethnicity. Having diversity just for the sake of it isn't enough to get a free pass. We've had better in the past and should have better writing now.

I've agreed with everything you've said so far. The issue isn't women and diversity in and of themselves. The issue is the shoehorning and the force-feeding of an agenda over story/characters/art, (basically the reasons we go see and love and consume movies). Any agenda (even if someone had a white straight male agenda...which Marvel doesn't...which is why no one cared that there were 17 straight white male leads) that is rolled out and made into cookie cutter characters to be the vehicles for that agenda are not going to please anyone but the rabid dogs who are begging for the agenda to be fed to them again. It is purely propaganda, plain and simple. And not even hidden. The creators/producers admit it nakedly to the praise of their rabid dogs.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:53 PM   #96
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I don't disagree that the newer characters are weaker than the originals, but they're not weak BECAUSE they're diverse. They're weak because the writing in general is generated from a corporate machine as opposed to a young visionary filmmaker trying to prove his art.
I agree. One of the most memorable villains against James Bond was a Korean called Oddjob who was played by a Japanese-American wrestler.
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Old 06-01-2018, 07:17 PM   #97
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Or "Tiger" Tanaka in You Only Live Twice, who is supposed to be the Japanese equivalent of M but lives it up in style with his own private train and pretty much a harem of women, with gadgets that could match anything coming out of Q Branch. That's a character who is "diverse" but not for diversity's sake, who is played well, without any political agenda being rammed down the audience's throat.
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:39 PM   #98
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Or "Tiger" Tanaka in You Only Live Twice, who is supposed to be the Japanese equivalent of M but lives it up in style with his own private train and pretty much a harem of women, with gadgets that could match anything coming out of Q Branch. That's a character who is "diverse" but not for diversity's sake, who is played well, without any political agenda being rammed down the audience's throat.

Well, there is the whole history of European imperialistic artistic representations of the exotic oriental "other" as self-absorbed machismo with an army of sex slave women, but we can just ignore that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Sardanapalus
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Old 06-03-2018, 05:08 AM   #99
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I don't think that was the intent since there was strong implications even in From Russia with Love that Bond and M had visited a whorehouse. And you have Bond sleeping with every woman he meets. I don't think it has much to do with imperialism so much as it was to show how far Japan had come, that their spymaster lives like a King compared to M. Considering the period, especially the fact that WWII was only twenty years prior, I consider Tanaka to be a strong character. It's him and his men who ultimately save the day even more than Bond. It's the training Bond receives from Tanaka that allows him to survive.
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Old 06-03-2018, 03:47 PM   #100
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Considering the period, especially the fact that WWII was only twenty years prior, I consider Tanaka to be a strong character. It's him and his men who ultimately save the day even more than Bond. It's the training Bond receives from Tanaka that allows him to survive.
9/11 was 17 years ago, and that still feels recent to me.
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