He chose... poorly.

Benraianajones

New member
Niteshade007 said:
I didn't say she was well written.

I see your point. When she's first revealed to be a "baddie," she's an out and out baddie. Total b*tch. But after that scene, she is never shown to be like that again. She is shown to be compassionate, perhaps even in a little bit over her head. The desert scene gives me that impression. When she sees Kazim dead, she seems to be upset and truly concerned.

Her character makes too many transitions for me to like her too much. She starts off as a smart, beautiful archaeologist, then smart, beautiful villain, then a smart, beautiful depressed woman, then a smart, beautiful cunning woman, then a moron who ignores a specific warning, walks slowly backwards out of a collapsing temple and ignores yet another warning from someone trying to save her.

Like I said, not very well written.

I don't think it is especially a matter of not being "very well written" - there are some complex people out there, and bare in mind, here we have a young woman, torn between rights and wrongs, but with the legendary grail in her hands. I think Elsa was meant to be a bit of an enigma to be honest. Elsa does seem upset as Kazim's death, and when Henry is shot. I don't think she especially believes in the killing for the grail aspect - minus at the end where she takes revenge on Donovan, she knows he is truly bad and wants him gone. Elsa on the other hand, is as greedy as Donovan is, but I don't think she intends to be especially bad with the grail, other than perhaps fortune and fame. Both her and Donovan plan betraying the Nazi's - and Donovan and her didn't want to share the grail together truly. All of them were having a bit of a "fight" towards the end.

Also, you probably notice, when Elsa picks up the grail, I believe it is the first time she has actually held it for herself in her own hands. She goes totally crazy that she has this "magical" thing within her hands. Until now she has seen others hold and use it - but this is her first experience holding it. Her personality totallly shifts, she really can't believe what she is holding.

She has seen the magic surrounding the area (the false grail, the real ones healing properties), she has even opted to forget warings not to pass the seal. Even at the point the fissure begins to open up. The only explination is she can't grasp what is happening, she is greedy, but also deluded by this point.Now she has the grail IN HER VERY OWN HANDS. She decides to remember the grail is magical (her eyes are glowing when she holds it) - but opts to forget the negative effects surrouding the grail. She just wants the grail, simple as that.

As for her compassion when Henry is shot, and "Indiana its ours! Yours and Mine!" and her constant personality shifts throughout the film. Well, I think Elsa did have somewhat of a softspot for the Jones' at the end, she wasn't totally a bad person (re: upset at kazim's death). She had used Jones to get to the grail, she even betrayed Donovan after he had assisted her to reach it. She was even using the Nazi party to reach her gial of course, hence her sobbing away at the book burning, she isn't a believer in it all. She just sides with whoever gets her closest to ger goal (and I assume she was willing to act as evil or nice as she needed). By the end she was more stable to decide which side she felt for most - with her now at her goal of the grail's temple, she didn't need to use people any further...apart from rid Donovan, as she saw the bad in him, and didn't want to share the grail with him. I believe at the end, she genuinley felt something for Indiana and his dad.

There is a chance Elsa really did want to share this grail at the end with Indiana, but I can't help but deep inside the "ours" actually means "mine".

As for her crossing the seal slowly even as the warnings are yelled at her as it crumbles - I just think that simply goes to show her desperation and lack of ability to comprehend what she is doing and holding.
 
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The Man

Well-known member
Let's face it, folks: Elsa was a super-ho. She probably slept with every man who could further her acquisition of the Grail. Donovan, both Jones', maybe even Vogel. Given enough time, dear old Marcus could have boned her too.
 

Benraianajones

New member
Haha a cruder way of putting it but yes! She would go with anyone to get the grail through the movie, but at the end, decided she did quite like Indy and Henry.
 

Bat-Dude

New member
So, anyone have a problem with Indy attempting to reach the grail at the end? He seems equally seduced by the power of it, rather than wanting it because "it belongs in a museum."

It seems to me, first of all, that he wouldn't be seduced by the power b/c of his turn in ToD (disregarding the flip-flop of his character between the Young Indy intro and the Indy at the beginning of ToD - I assume he becomes jaded as an adult or something :rolleyes: ); but, second, if he were to still be seduced by it despite having already overcome the greed factor, it would have happened when he first held it and/or drank from it.

It's a nice scene to show the growth of the relationship between Indy and his dad (it's the first time Henry acknowledges him as "Indiana") but is otherwise out of character for Indy, at least from my perspective. It's always bothered me.
 

The Man

Well-known member
Bat-Dude said:
So, anyone have a problem with Indy attempting to reach the grail at the end? He seems equally seduced by the power of it, rather than wanting it because "it belongs in a museum."

It seems to me, first of all, that he wouldn't be seduced by the power b/c of his turn in ToD (disregarding the flip-flop of his character between the Young Indy intro and the Indy at the beginning of ToD - I assume he becomes jaded as an adult or something :rolleyes: ); but, second, if he were to still be seduced by it despite having already overcome the greed factor, it would have happened when he first held it and/or drank from it.

It's a nice scene to show the growth of the relationship between Indy and his dad (it's the first time Henry acknowledges him as "Indiana") but is otherwise out of character for Indy, at least from my perspective. It's always bothered me.

That plea from Henry Sr. is a beautiful moment. Also, why didn't Williams use the music from that scene in Crusade for when Indy is looking at his father's picture in Skull? The Grail theme was inappropriate.
 

mikeyfridgebuzz

New member
Agent Spalko said:
If Donovan was smart he should have made Elsa drink first.

or make Indy drink first.

I remember seeing it the first time in the theater and being surprised that he didn't force Indy to choose first.

Although maybe Donovan knew that if Indy was right he would be immortal and Donovan wouldn't want that. The same could apply to Elsa.
 
Because he didn't take the Knight's advice...

Donovan has the gun. He could force Indy to choose and make him take the first drink. He was in control. Instead, he stupidly trusts in Elsa, let's her choose for him, and foolishly takes the first drink himself.

He chose... poorly.
 

Benraianajones

New member
The Man said:
That plea from Henry Sr. is a beautiful moment. Also, why didn't Williams use the music from that scene in Crusade for when Indy is looking at his father's picture in Skull? The Grail theme was inappropriate.

That is true, that music is nice. Perhaps he used that grail related theme simply as it tends to be more recogniseable?

Yes, I thought about that too, Donovan could have forced Indy..but there is no way Donovan would want Indy to experience the grail's powers before he did.
 

mikeyfridgebuzz

New member
Agent Spalko said:
Because he didn't take the Knight's advice...

Donovan has the gun. He could force Indy to choose and make him take the first drink. He was in control. Instead, he stupidly trusts in Elsa, let's her choose for him, and foolishly takes the first drink himself.

He chose... poorly.

Yes but Donovan wants to find the correct grail and if Indy chooses wisely and becomes immortal, Donovan knows that his gun is useless and Indy can make off with the grail.

If Indy chooses poorly, then all Donovan has is the knowledge that one out of the many numbers of cups in that room are false...not really worth it either way.

Donovan had to get the grail first in order to have it at all in that scenario.

His better option would have been to bring some of his mindless soldiers with him that he could trust to go through each one until they find it. Even then it's not a guarantee that the soldier who gets lucky doesn't turn on him.
 

mikeyfridgebuzz

New member
Benraianajones said:
Donovan just threw all logic out of the window. He wanted the grail and immortality - he jumped right in to get it. He paid.

I guess that's the best way to explain it.

That and seeing Elsa turn on both Joneses wasn't enough for him to consider the same happening to him.
 

Niteshade007

New member
Bat-Dude said:
So, anyone have a problem with Indy attempting to reach the grail at the end? He seems equally seduced by the power of it, rather than wanting it because "it belongs in a museum."

It seems to me, first of all, that he wouldn't be seduced by the power b/c of his turn in ToD (disregarding the flip-flop of his character between the Young Indy intro and the Indy at the beginning of ToD - I assume he becomes jaded as an adult or something :rolleyes: ); but, second, if he were to still be seduced by it despite having already overcome the greed factor, it would have happened when he first held it and/or drank from it.

It's a nice scene to show the growth of the relationship between Indy and his dad (it's the first time Henry acknowledges him as "Indiana") but is otherwise out of character for Indy, at least from my perspective. It's always bothered me.

That's another problem I see with the film. I just don't see that happening. No one would do that after watching someone fall to their death doing the same thing. Especially not immediately after. And I have never felt touched by the scene between Indy and Henry Sr. In fact, I found it kind of funny that Indy couldn't lift that tiny woman, but this old man can lift Indy. Granted, Henry had a better hold, but Indy could have easily moved his hands further up her arm to get a better hold and yanked her up.

And Benraianajones (I didn't want to quote that because it was pretty long), you bring up a lot of good points. I agree that Elsa probably used people to get what she wanted. But I like that you think that she did have a soft spot for Indy and his dad. I think a lot of people ignore that, but one of the better aspects of the film is that she is pretty three dimensional in some scenes.
 

Benraianajones

New member
Niteshade007 said:
That's another problem I see with the film. I just don't see that happening. No one would do that after watching someone fall to their death doing the same thing. Especially not immediately after. And I have never felt touched by the scene between Indy and Henry Sr. In fact, I found it kind of funny that Indy couldn't lift that tiny woman, but this old man can lift Indy. Granted, Henry had a better hold, but Indy could have easily moved his hands further up her arm to get a better hold and yanked her up.

Hi Nightshade, glad you enjoyed the post despite length!

As for why would Indy do it right after Elsa's death, I can't quite recall, doesn't a rumble from the ground send him over the edge as well? I'm not so sure he would have tried to grab it otherwise. As it is though ,he is hanging between the grail, and his father. He thinks his dad needs Indy to physically grab the grail, so he will accept him (the grail is his dads life long dream), but of course Henry proves otherwise. Henry is also letting his life long dream go, for Indy's life. Indy of course is letting immortality go/and his dad's dream, and happy accepting his dads acceptance of him, without the grail. There was obviously a lot of torment inside Indy, and this scene was just a way to bring it to a tense conclusion.

As for Indy trying to grip Elsa and Henry gripping Indy with success...there is no spiritual explination...it was just for the movie!:whip:
 

Quickening

New member
Benraianajones said:
Hi Nightshade, glad you enjoyed the post despite length!

As for why would Indy do it right after Elsa's death, I can't quite recall, doesn't a rumble from the ground send him over the edge as well? I'm not so sure he would have tried to grab it otherwise. As it is though ,he is hanging between the grail, and his father. He thinks his dad needs Indy to physically grab the grail, so he will accept him (the grail is his dads life long dream), but of course Henry proves otherwise. Henry is also letting his life long dream go, for Indy's life. Indy of course is letting immortality go/and his dad's dream, and happy accepting his dads acceptance of him, without the grail. There was obviously a lot of torment inside Indy, and this scene was just a way to bring it to a tense conclusion.

Yeah the ground falls away causing Indy to hang off the edge but also meaning that he was closer to the grail than Elsa had been which is why he still tried despite Elsa's fate. I love the whole scene, I found it touching.
 

Benraianajones

New member
Quickening said:
Yeah the ground falls away causing Indy to hang off the edge but also meaning that he was closer to the grail than Elsa had been which is why he still tried despite Elsa's fate. I love the whole scene, I found it touching.


I can't recall totally - but doesn't the music that plays when Henry says "I thought I lost you boy" also play on the scene when he tells Indy to let the grail go? I am sure it does...that is a nice peice of music.
 

Quickening

New member
Benraianajones said:
I can't recall totally - but doesn't the music that plays when Henry says "I thought I lost you boy" also play on the scene when he tells Indy to let the grail go? I am sure it does...that is a nice peice of music.

Yep. Same piece of music.
 

Kooshmeister

New member
Quickening said:
Yeah the ground falls away causing Indy to hang off the edge but also meaning that he was closer to the grail than Elsa had been which is why he still tried despite Elsa's fate. I love the whole scene, I found it touching.

I like it because it makes sense in context of the story, and doesn't feel like a cheap attempt to prevent the hero from getting the prize*, although better writing could have come up with a way for Indy and Henry to both realize the other is more important and to willingly give up the Grail, without the "Oh, by the way it can't go beyond the great seal or else this whole place will fall apart" business that literally seems to come out of nowhere.

(*Too many movies about looking for lost artifacts and civilizations seem to arbitrarily end with that artifact/civilization's loss or destruction at the end, but only in the Indiana Jones films does it actually make sense - although in LC only barely so because as mentioned, the Grail's inability to leave the temple comes totally out of left field. In other films, it just seems, well, arbitrary. It's one reason I like the National Treasure movies despite their myriad of flaws; the good guys actually get to keep what they're looking for and show it to the world.)
 
There's a reason why the Grail has never been recovered. That is the reason. It can't leave the temple. If there wasn't a reason then it would be just another worthless cup gathering dust in a museum. Scientists would try to examine it for authenticity and try to determine if it has magical properties but since it doesn't beyond the seal they would probably disregard it as being anything more than a cup from the period and would have no empiracal evidence to support the fact that it was the cup of Christ other than the word of an archeologist's testimony.
 

Quickening

New member
Kooshmeister said:
I like it because it makes sense in context of the story, and doesn't feel like a cheap attempt to prevent the hero from getting the prize*, although better writing could have come up with a way for Indy and Henry to both realize the other is more important and to willingly give up the Grail, without the "Oh, by the way it can't go beyond the great seal or else this whole place will fall apart" business that literally seems to come out of nowhere.

(*Too many movies about looking for lost artifacts and civilizations seem to arbitrarily end with that artifact/civilization's loss or destruction at the end, but only in the Indiana Jones films does it actually make sense - although in LC only barely so because as mentioned, the Grail's inability to leave the temple comes totally out of left field. In other films, it just seems, well, arbitrary. It's one reason I like the National Treasure movies despite their myriad of flaws; the good guys actually get to keep what they're looking for and show it to the world.)

Well if they hadn't had the grail useless beyond the Great Seal then we'd have an immortal Indiana Jones just now. Actually Ive lost count of the number of people who didn't pay attention to the film and say to me, "isn't he immortal after the last one?". Gah.
 

Kooshmeister

New member
Well, who says Indy would want to be immortal? His only reason for wanting to get the Grail was to get it away from the Nazis, and to save his father. With those two things accomplished we don't know what he would've done with it. Probably give it to a museum or secret it away somewhere, without telling anyone what it is should it fall into the wrong hands. Or maybe Henry could have even convinced him to leave it there for that reason. There are a million possibilities without resorting to the "it all comes crashing down" ending.
 
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