No love for Crystal Skull on TV

StoneTriple

New member
TennesseBuck said:
So, you see, most people do hate.....
The Star Wars SEs, the Star Wars Prequels, Lucas' lying, his revisionist history, and the lack of an anamorphic DVD of the theatrical release of Star Wars77 - so they feel it's their right - their duty - to relentlessly ridicule him & all he's involved in. They ignore the fact that he's only one third of the team that created and continues to make the Indiana Jones films.

Darth Vile said:
...the Internet has spawned millions of worthless armchair critics, who deliver their latest diatribes before going back to work and delivering their pizzas.
Well put, sir.
 
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Wilhelm

Member
About hating TOD in the 80s this review by Alan Dean Foster in Starlog is a perfect example.

"An effort like Temple of Doom is in trouble even before the title appears on the screen. Not only is it a sequel to a hugely successful predecessor, but Steven Spielberg and George Lucas hace placed themselves in the unenviable position of having to top themselves every time out (...) The audience expects Temple of Doom to do the impossible. It does not, and because the expectations for the picture are so high, all of its lapses and failures are magnified. Instead of being rated against itself or other films of the same ilk, viewers find themselves comparing it not only to Raiders of the Lost Ark, but to E.T. and Star Wars. This does not obscure the fact that Romancing the Stone is a better film of the same type. (...) What the audience will not accept is someone stepping out of an airplane with only an inflated rubber life raft to cushion his fall of several thousand feet (...) What the falling-out-of-the-plane bit does is shout to the audience "You must accept this because it's only a movie". That's fatal to a fantasy. The audience feels cheated, doubly so when the impossible plunge is repeated seconds later as the raft careens over a precipice. By ignoring the laws of reality, the illusion of reality that the film aspires to its destroyed. The dream has been punctured. It's popcorn time.
Toward the end of the film, Indiana and his friends are being chased through a mine tunnel labyrinth. Both pursued and pursuers race along a breakneck speed in runaway mine cars. So far so exciting. And then we're smacked in the face with another "Awwwww, come onnnn!". A section of track is missing and there is a gap and drop before they resume. The decidedly unaerodynamic mine car carrying Indy and his friends rockets off the broken rails, lears the gap, and lands with a precision no space shuttle crew could achieve on the rails opposite, to continue its journey. You can't selle this stuff to kids, much less to adults. They've been educated to the perils of speed: by Tv cops shows, by Driver's Ed in school, by Disneyland. Everyone in the audience knows such a feat is impossible. (...) It's the writers who must bear the blame for the story's lapses of logic. As Indiana is fleeing gangsters in Shanghai, he escapes to a waiting plane. How does the airport agent know Indiana has 2 companions coming with him? For that matter , since the gangsters own the plane and have already planned to maroon Indiana aboard it, why they chase him all over the city and risk getting shot? (...)
Another difference, and an important one to the audience, between Raiders and Temple of Doom is the absence in the second film of fantasy elements. About all we're given is the sequence showing Ram removing the heart of his still-living victim, an effect done better and more frequently in David Cronenberg's Videodrome. Temple of Doom boasts no swirling evil spirits, no blasts of supernatural fire, no boiling clouds. Again the trouble is with expectations. We expect the out-of-ordinary from Spielberg and Lucas. (...) I also thought better use could have been made of the Sri Lanka locations.(...)
Story, story, story, and it's not only the pacing that suffers in Temple Of Doom. Why is Mola Ram sacrificing people? Nothing in Temple Of Doom is ever explained. It's an idiot plot, where characters do things solely for the benefit of the film, not because it bears any relationship to the story. In Raiders we know why everybody's after the Ark of the Covenant, we know what the Nazis want, we see relationships developing between REAL people. There are no real people in Temple of Doom; only ciphers. Characters must have motivation. It's not enough for Mola Ram to act evil: he has to have a reason to be evil. Mola Ram is coming from nowhere and going noplace. Cipher. (...)
And that, in the last analysis, is why you leave the theater feeling uncomfortable at the conclusion of Temple of Doom. You know you've watched a well-made, lavishly produced film that seems to have delivered all it promised. It just doesn't sit right, and the reason why is simple. No magic".

STARLOG Nov 1984.

A lot of the criticism is similar to KOTCS:

inflated rubber life raft - refrigerator
the raft careens over a precipice - 3 waterfalls
mine car rockets off the broken rails and lands with precision - Marion driving to the precipice
better use could have been made of the Sri Lanka locations - only filmed in US
absence of fantasy elements - extraterrestial instead of biblical powers
Mola Ram is coming from nowhere and going noplace - Spalko
No magic - No tension

I love TOD and KOTCS. And, of course ROTLA and LC. Great saga with the same style and direction from Spielberg.
 

Cole

New member
lol, Great post. It's like exactly like reading something exactly from 'Crystal Skull.'

Suddenly everybody becomes a movie expert on story and pacing, and every scene is harshly deconstructed.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
StoneTriple said:
I was there for it and I know from my own personal experience - it was not as well received as Raiders and it was made fun of & ridiculed considerably. Snark in general wasn't as trendy as it is today - we're a much angrier, hateful society. However, the disappointment & criticisms were most definitely there.
I was there, too. Sure the disappointment & criticisms were present (including my own) but from my personal experience, people didn't dwell on them and moved on. (Not to bring this thread off-topic but the word I was objecting to was "trendy" not "hate".;))
StoneTriple said:
Had there been the snark-driven world stage of the internet, there would have been.

Harder to spread the hate around back then, but it was there.
Which is exactly my point, StoneTriple. Without the venue/platform of the internet to express/spread fan (& average movie-goer) criticisms, the "trend" wasn't there.
Wilhelm said:
About hating TOD in the 80s this review by Alan Dean Foster in Starlog is a perfect example.
Finding negative reviews about "Doom" is easy but one would be hard pressed to cite examples of "hate" in mid-'80s pop culture (TV shows, etc.) MAD magazine & Cracked are excluded because they made fun of EVERYTHING, good or bad.
 
Stoo said:
I was there, too. Sure the disappointment & criticisms were present (including my own) but from my personal experience, people didn't dwell on them and moved on. (Not to bring this thread off-topic but the word I was objecting to was "trendy" not "hate".;))
Which is exactly my point, StoneTriple. Without the venue/platform of the internet to express/spread fan (& average movie-goer) criticisms, the "trend" wasn't there.
Finding negative reviews about "Doom" is easy but one would be hard pressed to cite examples of "hate" in mid-'80s pop culture (TV shows, etc.) MAD magazine & Cracked are excluded because they made fun of EVERYTHING, good or bad.

One thing that comes to mind from reading your post is how the critiques of Doom I remember were more about context then content.

Really, Raiders was so well loved, (believe it or not there were detractors of Raiders too) that Doom was viewed as a departure. Not from formula, becasue none existed, but from the wide appeal that Raiders enjoyed.

First impression of a movie about a Death Cult were recieved with winces probably like you had when you saw Church of Satan in the threads.

Each movie has in some way tried to recapture the Raiders formula ever since, and that does NOT mean simply following a blueprint.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Stoo said:
Finding negative reviews about "Doom" is easy but one would be hard pressed to cite examples of "hate" in mid-'80s pop culture (TV shows, etc.) MAD magazine & Cracked are excluded because they made fun of EVERYTHING, good or bad.

That?s because idiots, and the moronic culture they revel in, are increasingly debasing the English language. Show me someone who states they ?hate? a movie, and I?ll show you someone who hasn?t the acumen to articulate their thoughts through the written or spoken word. Saying one ?Hates? (or ?loves? for that matter) a movie completely devalues any real feelings or thoughts one may have for something far more significant than a piece of entertainment. We live in a world, it seems, where everything is either revered to the point of blind adulation/worship or ripped apart as if it were evil of Biblical proportions. I for one believe that those extremes are best left for the things that matter in life.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Darth Vile said:
That?s because idiots, and the moronic culture they revel in, are increasingly debasing the English language. Show me someone who states they ?hate? a movie, and I?ll show you someone who hasn?t the acumen to articulate their thoughts through the written or spoken word. Saying one ?Hates? (or ?loves? for that matter) a movie completely devalues any real feelings or thoughts one may have for something far more significant than a piece of entertainment. We live in a world, it seems, where everything is either revered to the point of blind adulation/worship or ripped apart as if it were evil of Biblical proportions. I for one believe that those extremes are best left for the things that matter in life.

If this were concise enough, I'd put it on a bumper sticker...and burn every other one.
 

StoneTriple

New member
Stoo said:
...people didn't dwell on them and moved on.

Finding negative reviews about "Doom" is easy but one would be hard pressed to cite examples of "hate" in mid-'80s pop culture

Sorry, didn't realize you were speaking of the trend as opposed to the actual hate.

There's no denying that the internet increased the spread of hate & snark at an alarming rate. That said, what I feel is much more of an issue is how hateful, snarky, uncivilized, and entitled our (America) society has become (I don't how it is for you in Canada or Switzerland). You mentioned it above - people in the 80s expressed their disappointment and moved on. These days, people feel offended that their own selfish, personal standards weren't catered to properly - so they register a hateful domain name and spend years yelling and repeating their hate - all with the safety of anonymity.

I think it was sort of a perfect storm (in a bad way). The combination of an increasingly aggressive & disrespectful society being given a world stage from which to vomit their hate - 24 hours a day, seven days a week. All with the pseudo gravitas of it being valid because they posted it on the almighty internet - the bastion of all things true & factual in the universe.
 
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Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
StoneTriple said:
That said, what I feel is much more of an issue is how hateful, snarky, uncivilized, and entitled our (America) society has become (I don't how it is for you in Canada or Switzerland). These days, people feel offended that their own selfish, personal standards weren't catered to properly - so they register a hateful domain name and spend years yelling and repeating their hate - all with the safety of anonymity.

More true words were never spoken. Well said!
:hat:

Such a shame that this is pretty much true...
 
Dr.Jonesy said:
More true words were never spoken. Well said!
:hat:

Such a shame that this is pretty much true...


Wow... internal contradiction much? Either there couldn't be anything truer or it's only "pretty much true." Now I'm confused...
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
ResidentAlien said:
Wow... internal contradiction much? Either there couldn't be anything truer or it's only "pretty much true." Now I'm confused...

I'm half asleep at the keyboard. Obviously didn't proof-read.

I'm kinda confused too...you understood that what I said was an "internal contradiction", yet you still claim to be confused. If you could identify what it was, then where does the confusion part come in?
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Dr.Jonesy said:
More true words were never spoken. Well said!
:hat:

Such a shame that this is pretty much true...


Let me rephrase that....since RA is confused.

StoneTriple:
Very well said. These sentiments exactly mirror my own as they are a true reflection on the views society has, and how our selfish desires to hate that our own personal expectations were not catered to can taint certain things.

Truer words were never spoken!


Hope this cleared up any confusion for those like RA. My apologies for my very, very contradicting statement I had previously posted.






:rolleyes:
 
Dr.Jonesy said:
I'm half asleep at the keyboard. Obviously didn't proof-read.

I'm kinda confused too...you understood that what I said was an "internal contradiction", yet you still claim to be confused. If you could identify what it was, then where does the confusion part come in?


Well I'm half-drunk at the keyboard. Perhaps my judgment isn't too hot either. ;)
 

Yure

Well-known member
Insomniac said:
I think it hasn't sunk deep enough in pop culture to actually be understood!
Give it ten years!

Bury it in the sand, for thousands of years, then people will kill to get it.

Seriously, I loved it ;)
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Darth Vile said:
That’s because idiots, and the moronic culture they revel in, are increasingly debasing the English language.

Or the English language is inadequate in describing various degrees of "love" given the sole reliance on the word. The Greeks had it best -- Agapē, Eros, Philia, and Storge described all the various type of "love" one was bound to have.


Now as I've said before: I was one of the rare fans who did not want a fourth picture to be made; everybody involved waited far too long to get it together, and given the continual distancing from Temple by the Beards, Skull was bound to be even more slap-happy than Crusade.

There are plenty of reasons to despise Skull's existence, the least of which is wasting a great title on a mediocre adventure. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is wonderfully evocative, and all that really exciting adventure-y stuff to go along with it is missing.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Le Saboteur said:
Or the English language is inadequate in describing various degrees of "love" given the sole reliance on the word. The Greeks had it best -- Agapē, Eros, Philia, and Storge described all the various type of "love" one was bound to have.

Oh the English language is rich enough… The likes of Shakespeare, Keats, Shelley, Wordsworth etc. managed to get by just fine.

There is a modern trend towards reducing expression through language to a single sentence, word, abbreviation, acronym, text speak (or simple smilie)... :)... and ultimately when one cannot express/articulate adequately via the spoken or written word, their is a tendency for that expression to turn aggressive (be it verbally or physically).
 

MaxPhactor23

New member
I really dislike when opinions on films that are viewed primarily negatively are dismissed as trendy. It’s just juvenile and opinionated. Because there’s a majority of hatred doesn’t make it mindless, overly-critical, or some sort of fad at all. Instead…here’s a shocking revelation…maybe most people just genuinely think the film is crap. Now there’s an idea! The amount of denial here is…staggering…especially coming from so-called mature adults. In the end, is anyone’s opinion of any film, except your very own, ultimately relevant? Who cares if the entire world hates Crystal Skull? If it was your cup of tea, more power to you! Have a little self confidence. The fact of the matter is that this is an Indiana Jones website. This is the target audience and one might say that this is the one and only place where you’ll find bias opinions on the film, where Indiana Jones will be avidly defended without so much as an original thought. So no, I don’t see a trend, I see denial.

Darth Vile said:
So I agree with your underlying sentiment... and I certainly agree that the Internet has spawned millions of worthless armchair critics, who deliver their latest diatribes before going back to work and delivering their pizzas. However... I believe there was a common consensus in the mid/late 80’s (wether that constitutes a “trend” I don’t know) that TOD (and Return of the Jedi to name another example) were sub-par movies and widely open to derision. I distinctly remember a lot of people referred to “Jedi” as 'Return of the Teddy' :)

You always were the mature one, Vile! The fact of the matter is that everyone critiques everything on a daily basis. You critique the food you eat, the clothing you decide to wear, the books you read, the films you watch, the roads you take, etc. No one likes every film they've seen, why should they be viewed negatively for something they technically cannot control? Personal taste just...well...is. The difference is that critics do this publically, and why shouldn't they? Why should someone feel bad about how they feel on a certain subject? Do you love cars, sports, gardening, video gaming, guns, politics, chicken salad, and long walks on the beach? I doubt you enjoy them all, why shouldn't you be allowed to say it and the reasons why? So long as it's not a personal attack on those that you don't agree with, speak all you like! Again, how is this somehow a bad thing? It takes a certain amount of courage to face the juvenilely opinioned peoples that crawl out from under their rock and sometimes make personal and hurtful judgments (much like you’re doing) based upon a difference of opinion. I have a great deal more admiration for those that judge films instead of those who judge people based off of their opinions on trivial entertainment. Films don’t have feelings! If you're going to play the insult game, I'll give you an example of my harsh inside feelings on your side of things just to show you how ridiculous you sound; The fact of the matter is that I have more respect for critics then I’ll ever have for dronish defenders that live in their mothers basements, bowing down to their shrines of their Geek Gods like Lucas and Spielberg, pledging their lives to defending their work in between delivering their pizzas. They have the courage to be themselves, not tools of a fanboy. That speaks volumes.
 
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MaxPhactor23 said:
Do you love cars, sports, gardening, video gaming, guns, politics, chicken salad, and long walks on the beach?

Wow! You really GET me, what are you doing Saturday night? Although I think I'm starting to favor tuna salad a bit more...

Nicely written.
 
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