Origin of the Grail Cross / Cruciform Sword design?

Stoo

Well-known member
Hmm...Since you posted that it wasn't a genuine artificact from the Middle Ages, I was under the impression that it was a fan-made item based on the "Crusade" design. However, the 'mislaid prop' idea is intriguing.

Judging from the top loop, it must be a necklace piece and, with the right length necklace, it could hang exactly where Kazim's tattoo is. Goodeknight, what are the size dimensions of your exquisite find? Is it roughly the same size as the tattoo?
 

Henry W Jones

New member
goodeknight said:
Brotherhoodnecklace.png


Regarding this cross and the idea that the Brotherhood cross was a symbol created for the movie, someone recently suggested, "Very interesting, although I have *never* seen a similar item. I wonder if it's not a mislaid prop?"

Intriguing thought.

Are any of the crosses in the movie that color? What scene do you think it came from?
 

Goodeknight

New member
Stoo said:
Hmm...Since you posted that it wasn't a genuine artificact from the Middle Ages, I was under the impression that it was a fan-made item based on the "Crusade" design. However, the 'mislaid prop' idea is intriguing.

Sorry for the confusion, Stoo. To clear things up, the seller had a bunch of stuff listed, each with a disclaimer that he was listing them as "Roman," which was his best guess, but he didn't really know. He got all the stuff from one person, and didn't have details about where the items were found, or even what country they came from. But he was selling them all as antiquities. And the other items up for sale were all odd bits and pieces of metal from ages past. So I have no reason to doubt his claim.

I do not think it's a fan-made item. Honestly, I highly doubt it's a prop. But when someone else suggested that to me, the idea was immediately exciting.

I believe it is an antiquity. I believe it is a Christian cross of some sort. That final, belief, however, is the most debatable. But, until I or someone else finds another cross like it with some provenance, then your guess is as good as mine.

Stoo said:
Judging from the top loop, it must be a necklace piece and, with the right length necklace, it could hang exactly where Kazim's tattoo is. Goodeknight, what are the size dimensions of your exquisite find? Is it roughly the same size as the tattoo?

It is a pendant, and, you're spot on, Stoo. It looks to be just about the same size as Kazim's tattoo. It's really rather large for a necklace. About 2 1/4" x 1" (57mm x 26mm) Just the right size to see it in a medium shot. :)

However...

Henry W Jones said:
Are any of the crosses in the movie that color? What scene do you think it came from?

I haven't seen cross pendants like this anywhere in the movie. It's bronze and has a heavy patina. Another indication it's a genuine antiquity and not something made for the movie. You can patina something to make it look old, but more likely, if it was for the movie it would have been left bronze or made out of gold or silver.* But if it was made for the movie, my guess would be it was to be used in place of Kazim's tattoo. Join the Brotherhood get your grail cross.

That much speculation makes the 'mislaid, unused prop' theory rather sketchy.

Still, the fact that no one saw crosses like this before Crusade.....


* I wear a Byzantine bronze cross necklace on a daily basis. I never take it off. When my wife gave it to me, it was the same patina as my "grail cross." But after wearing it for a few months, it got back to its original bronze color.
 

Henry W Jones

New member
goodeknight said:
Sorry for the confusion, Stoo. To clear things up, the seller had a bunch of stuff listed, each with a disclaimer that he was listing them as "Roman," which was his best guess, but he didn't really know. He got all the stuff from one person, and didn't have details about where the items were found, or even what country they came from. But he was selling them all as antiquities. And the other items up for sale were all odd bits and pieces of metal from ages past. So I have no reason to doubt his claim.

I do not think it's a fan-made item. Honestly, I highly doubt it's a prop. But when someone else suggested that to me, the idea was immediately exciting.

I believe it is an antiquity. I believe it is a Christian cross of some sort. That final, belief, however, is the most debatable. But, until I or someone else finds another cross like it with some provenance, then your guess is as good as mine.



It is a pendant, and, you're spot on, Stoo. It looks to be just about the same size as Kazim's tattoo. It's really rather large for a necklace. About 2 1/4" x 1" (57mm x 26mm) Just the right size to see it in a medium shot. :)

However...



I haven't seen cross pendants like this anywhere in the movie. It's bronze and has a heavy patina. Another indication it's a genuine antiquity and not something made for the movie. You can patina something to make it look old, but more likely, if it was for the movie it would have been left bronze or made out of gold or silver.* But if it was made for the movie, my guess would be it was to be used in place of Kazim's tattoo. Join the Brotherhood get your grail cross.

That much speculation makes the 'mislaid, unused prop' theory rather sketchy.

Still, the fact that no one saw crosses like this before Crusade.....


* I wear a Byzantine bronze cross necklace on a daily basis. I never take it off. When my wife gave it to me, it was the same patina as my "grail cross." But after wearing it for a few months, it got back to its original bronze color.


I don't know how accurate this site is, but it is relevant to the conversation. :)

http://symboldictionary.net/?p=2294
 

Stoo

Well-known member
goodeknight said:
I believe it is an antiquity. I believe it is a Christian cross of some sort. That final, belief, however, is the most debatable. But, until I or someone else finds another cross like it with some provenance, then your guess is as good as mine.
The curious nature of your item continues to grow. According to Mr. Symbol Dictionary in Henry W's link:

"This emblem, best known as the 'grail cross,' is not a genuine religious or historical symbol,"
goodeknight said:
It is a pendant, and, you're spot on, Stoo. It looks to be just about the same size as Kazim's tattoo. It's really rather large for a necklace. About 2 1/4" x 1" (57mm x 26mm) Just the right size to see it in a medium shot. :)
Thanks for the details, Goodeknight. If you believe it is indeed an antiquity, then it can't be a prop (even though its size is suspicious).

Maybe you can start wearing this around your neck instead of your Byzantine cross. You can wear it while you suntan this summer an then you'll have a temporary, inverse tattoo.:D
Henry W Jones said:
I don't know how accurate this site is, but it is relevant to the conversation.:)
Too bad this guy doesn't know about the incorporated sword and nail! He posted a related symbol of a cross with a triangle at the bottom. What is that?

P.S. I love this thread!:D
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Stoo said:
The curious nature of your item continues to grow. According to Mr. Symbol Dictionary in Henry W's link:

"This emblem, best known as the 'grail cross,' is not a genuine religious or historical symbol,"
Thanks for the details, Goodeknight. If you believe it is indeed an antiquity, then it can't be a prop (even though its size is suspicious).

Maybe you can start wearing this around your neck instead of your Byzantine cross. You can wear it while you suntan this summer an then you'll have a temporary, inverse tattoo.:D
Too bad this guy doesn't know about the incorporated sword and nail! He posted a related symbol of a cross with a triangle at the bottom. What is that?

P.S. I love this thread!:D


Did you see the symbol to the right of the info or did you only see the related symbols at the bottom?
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Henry W Jones said:
Did you see the symbol to the right of the info or did you only see the related symbols at the bottom?
Yes, I saw the symbol to the right of the info and it's the Cruciform Sword image from "Last Crusade". What interests me is the symbol at the bottom of the info with the Cross/Triangle. Apparently, it's the "Golden Dawn Cross" which is related to the Tree of Life (and would, undoubtedly, be of great interest to Pale Horse).

At the National Geographic exhibit, the Cruciform Sword was on display to see up-close & personal. Here's my photo. Can ya dig it?:)

Exhibit_CruciformSword.jpg
 

Indy's brother

New member
Stoo said:
At the National Geographic exhibit, the Cruciform Sword was on display to see up-close & personal. Here's my photo. Can ya dig it?:)

Exhibit_CruciformSword.jpg

Excellent shot, Stoo! I bet on the strength of your post, someone over at the Replica Prop Forum will probably be moved to recreate it...eventually!

(*crosses fingers*)

I'd totally rock that necklace....
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Indy's brother said:
Excellent shot, Stoo! I bet on the strength of your post, someone over at the Replica Prop Forum will probably be moved to recreate it...eventually!

(*crosses fingers*)

I'd totally rock that necklace....
Thanks, Indy's brother.:) Apologies if I'm having a mind-block but...where is this necklace seen in "Last Crusade"? It's pretty, damned big and I can't place it in the film. Since you're an apparent fan of the Grail Knight, perhaps you would know? What am I forgetting?:confused:
 

Indy's brother

New member
Woah, now that you mention it, I don't recall seeing it. A false memory forged by your post, it seems. It was on display at the Indy exhibit, though? Maybe it's from a deleted scene?
 
The only one whose image is that precise is the Knight's.

If anywhere it would be with him...maybe his brother, though I don't ever remember seeing it.
 

Indy's brother

New member
Bump

Indy's brother said:
You know, another point of interest would be to decipher the writing around the ring......

greatseal.png

So, anyone feel like putting fresh eyes on this and try to decipher the writing around the inner and outer rings?
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Indy's brother said:
So, anyone feel like putting fresh eyes on this and try to decipher the writing around the inner and outer rings?
Having practiced & taught calligraphy, there are many letters that I recognize but can't make much sense of what the words are supposed to say...except:

Inner Ring:
Starting directly above the apex of the Cruciform Sword, are the letters "RAAL" (2 different versions of the letter "A" are used). This could possibly be part of the word, "Graal", which is "Grail" in Old French.

On the obscured left section, I see traces of a capital "S" directly in line to the lateral bar on the cross.

Outer Ring:
The bottom right appears to have "OMINI" which is probably part of the word, "Domini", meaning "Lords" or "of the Lord".

@WilliamBoyd: Your link isn't working for me.:(
 
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