Indiana Jones films: racist?

Are the Indiana Jones Films Racist?

  • No

    Votes: 61 79.2%
  • Yes - all of them

    Votes: 4 5.2%
  • Raiders of the Lost Ark

    Votes: 2 2.6%
  • Temple of Doom

    Votes: 9 11.7%
  • Last Crusade

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

    Votes: 1 1.3%

  • Total voters
    77
This is some golden comedy! :hat:

First off, regarding pseudo-intellectual phony nonsense:

I.M.J. said:
Some of the commentary asserting the racist question in this thread is amidst the most pseudo-intellectual, sophomoric, phony nonsense that I have ever read.

The hilarity of editing "...some of the most pseudo-intellectual, sophomoric, phony nonsense..." to "...amidst the most pseudo-intellectual..." is the kind of gift that keeps on giving!

...and (begging to be repeated) is the most pseudo-intellectual, sophomoric, phony nonsense posted in this thread!(y)

WOW!

It certainly establishes you as an authority on the coming moral onslaught and keen observational mastery to come.


I.M.J. said:
If racism is equivalent to parody in a Hero film whereby someone winds up in India and there are Indian bad guys there, then we are in big trouble as a society.
Yes.


I.M.J. said:
...creating a nonsense cause to champion, typif[ying] everything that is wrong with the world today.
An expertise you no doubt hold dominion over!

I.M.J. said:
Even the question itself is posed like a child would do it, hence the child-like phrasing of the question: "Is Indiana Jones racist?".
Your powers of perception are only dimmed by the brilliance of your repulsor rays!

I'll wait while you refresh your drink...

Ok, despite the errors in your quoting system Jarvis, lets repost this little bit from about three months ago:

Good Lord. The Title of the thread:

1) Indiana Jones: Racist?

...is general.

The Poll question:

2) Are the Indiana Jones Films Racist?

...and the initial post question:

3) Where is the racism in any of the Indiana Jones films?

...each in their turn, and as they are able, build off of each other.

I.M.J. said:
It's like asking "Is bowling racist?"
Exactly.

I.M.J. said:
- it's an idiot's question, but we'll address it as if it was valid.
Thank you, your arrogant-ness...

God help you that you needed a staff for that post!

I.M.J. said:
Do you mean the character himself? Then no. It's clear that he has a deeply rooted respect for cross-cultural differentiation which would most likely negate racists overtones in his life.

If you mean the movies at large? The answer is no, the movies were available to a wide range of audiences across the world, and offered as entertainment, and while using certain aspects of a given culture as the villain, the movies also offered aspects of each culture as valid and not all encompassing.

Sure, there aren't many pictures or drawings in this thread, but stick with it and you might find some familiar sentiments and benefit from the later postings of The Drifter.

Get another ice cube, or two...:rolleyes:
 
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Henry W Jones

New member
I.M.J. said:
Some of the commentary asserting the racist question in this thread is amidst the most pseudo-intellectual, sophomoric, phony nonsense that I have ever read. If racism is equivalent to parody in a Hero film whereby someone winds up in India and there are Indian bad guys there, then we are in big trouble as a society. I can only imagine that whoever is asserting this is either an idiot kid who is vying for self-importance by creating a nonsense cause to champion, or a moron adult who typifies everything that is wrong with the world today.

Even the question itself is posed like a child would do it, hence the child-like phrasing of the question: "Is Indiana Jones racist?". It's like asking "Is bowling racist?" - it's an idiot's question, but we'll address it as if it was valid.

Do you mean the character himself? Then no. It's clear that he has a deeply rooted respect for cross-cultural differentiation which would most likely negate racists overtones in his life.

If you mean the movies at large? The answer is no, the movies were available to a wide range of audiences across the world, and offered as entertainment, and while using certain aspects of a given culture as the villain, the movies also offered aspects of each culture as valid and not all encompassing.

Wow, aren't you special. Couldn't just answer the question and had to be a arrogant ass about it. Good job!!!!!!!!
 

Vance

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Racism has been defined.

By your logic, since the movie "Birth of A Nation" does not explicity state that all black men are like the ones in the film, it is therefore not a racist movie? Or that since the stereotypes shown in the movie weren't true they weren't somehow offensive and black people are just too dumb and emotional to be offended by it?

Do you realize how insanely insenstive and bigotted that direction of thinking really is?

Temple of Doom implicitly shows India in an inferior, even 'backwards' and barbaric light compared to Western Society (TM). This is worsened by cutting out crucial dialog which would have explicity stated 'this is not normal' rather than give the audience the idea that it is.

And we've got an insane amount of anecdotal evidence, apologies from thos who worked on the movie, lots of picketing, and the government of the offended nation declaring the end result racist and banning it for decades. Hell, even today the movie is constantly referenced as one of the most racist Hollywood films of all time ( http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-racist-films-of-all-time-2012-5?op=1 still has it listed ) !
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Vance said:
By your logic, since the movie "Birth of A Nation" does not explicity state that all black men are like the ones in the film, it is therefore not a racist movie? Or that since the stereotypes shown in the movie weren't true they weren't somehow offensive and black people are just too dumb and emotional to be offended by it?

Do you realize how insanely insenstive and bigotted that direction of thinking really is?

Temple of Doom implicitly shows India in an inferior, even 'backwards' and barbaric light compared to Western Society (TM). This is worsened by cutting out crucial dialog which would have explicity stated 'this is not normal' rather than give the audience the idea that it is.

And we've got an insane amount of anecdotal evidence, apologies from thos who worked on the movie, lots of picketing, and the government of the offended nation declaring the end result racist and banning it for decades. Hell, even today the movie is constantly referenced as one of the most racist Hollywood films of all time ( http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-racist-films-of-all-time-2012-5?op=1 still has it listed ) !

First, lets stop bringing up other films. Birth of a Nation is not Indiana Jones and if one has not seen it, it has zero relevancy. Second, are you saying if one does not agree with your line of thinking they are insensitive bigots? The film does not show India as inferior. It shows one village in 1930s India and never implies all.of India is like them or does it imply all Indian people are evil. If you saw them in that light after watching the film, well, I would say you are the one with the problem. Just because someone is offended by something does not make it racist. There is normally always someone who is offended or wants to complain about just about everything. So by your logic, everything is racist. I still don't see any evidence of racism in the film, just the opinion of a bunch of people with no real fact to back up their statement beyond "people were offended" By what? What was the stereotype? How are the Indians in the film belittled? So, a film set in India cannot have a hero foreign to the country? Or is that just a white hero? For one to read into TOD that much and to say it is a representation of all the people of India says a lot about the intellect and mentality of the viewer. Anybody watching any film should not assume all people of a certain race act like characters in a film. That actually would be the viewer in this case who is stereotyping India and not the film itself.
 
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AndyLGR

Active member
It seems as though the conversation is trying to be steered away to discuss other films instead of staying within the confines of the Indy movies.

Just because someone says something that doesn't make it so. Looking through the thread I can see a lot of this, its like "well they say its racist and so do these people, so it must be racist". Yet it seems sometimes these comments are used but without any personal opinions being offered being offered in addition.

Anyway, I came across this quote from Roshan Seth in this article:

http://www.empireonline.com/features/indiana-jones-making-of-temple-of-doom

Seth: The banquet scene was a joke that went wrong. I got a great deal of flak for it because people kept saying, "How does an intelligent man like you agree to be in a film which shows Indians dining on beetles and eels?" Steven intended it as a joke, the joke being that Indians were so ****ing smart that they knew all Westerners think that Indians eat cockroaches, so they served them what they expected. The joke was too subtle for that film.
 
Vance said:
By your logic, since the movie "Birth of A Nation" does not explicity state that all black men are like the ones in the film, it is therefore not a racist movie? Or that since the stereotypes shown in the movie weren't true they weren't somehow offensive and black people are just too dumb and emotional to be offended by it?
Henry W Jones said:
Birth of a Nation is not Indiana Jones and if one has not seen it, it has zero relevancy.
I have no insight regarding a film I haven't seen. What I can say is that you find it difficult to discuss the supposed racism in Temple of Doom in terms of Temple of Doom.

Vance said:
Do you realize how insanely insenstive and bigotted that direction of thinking really is?
No, I don't. I do see how emotion clouds your judgement and that you expect others to take you at your word.

Are you saying:
Henry W Jones said:
...if one does not agree with your line of thinking they are insensitive bigots?

Are you?

Vance said:
Temple of Doom implicitly shows India in an inferior, even 'backwards' and barbaric light compared to Western Society (TM).
In addition to Henry's point:
Henry W Jones said:
The film...never implies all of India is like them or does it imply all Indian people are evil.
...as a stand alone film, "Western Society" is not portrayed. There are certainly attitudes and views expressed by Indy, Willie and Blumbert, but do you contend this portrayal in the film is a summation of Western Society?

Vance said:
This is worsened by cutting out crucial dialog which would have explicity stated 'this is not normal' rather than give the audience the idea that it is.
I appreciate the "Temple-centric" example...though I've already addressed it many times.

By virtue of the film title, the warnings of the Mayapore Shaman, the statue adorned with severed fingers. and Chatter Lal's proclamation of Pancot Tradition, the audience is aware that "this is not normal.'

Vance said:
And we've got an insane amount of anecdotal evidence, apologies from thos who worked on the movie
You really like the word insane.

You're obviously invested in this discussion, please quote the apologies here, for the sake of the discussion.

Vance said:
...lots of picketing...
Junior was kind enough to share a real example but that's ONE. Just give me one yourself, (you claim it's an insane amount!).

Vance said:
...and the government of the offended nation declaring the end result racist and banning it for decades.

This last one regarding the ban poses some interesting questions.

The ban has been lifted. Does this mean the film is no longer racist?

Does it mean it never was?

Could it mean they've reexamined a knee jerk reaction and thought better of themselves?

No?

Vance said:
Hell, even today the movie is constantly referenced as one of the most racist Hollywood films of all time ( http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-racist-films-of-all-time-2012-5?op=1 still has it listed ) !

You're an avid reader of Business Insider? Do you ever consider context?

Keertana Sastry, a freelance entertainment writer on a business blog, covering tech, media, law, Wall Street, investing and entrepreneurship?

Her take on her readers:
"Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom" (1984) shows Hindus as evil, human-sacrificing psychos.

Just so everyone is clear, Hindus are not human-sacrificing, creepy idol-worshiping people. And sure, "Temple of Doom" is not saying they are, but for people who don't know anything about the religion, it sure looks that way. Perhaps it was a change of pace from fighting the Nazis.

Ok, he're what one of her readers thinks:

Mike H on Jun 1, 10:30 AM said:

Ugh … the villains in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom were not Hindu’s, they were Thuggees, an ancient Indian blood cult wiped out by the British in the 19th century. Learn your history people!!

The comments pan her "article" virtually unanimously.





Henry W Jones said:
If you saw them in that light after watching the film, well, I would say you are the one with the problem.
Your post summarizes the opposition well.

Another interesting aspect to the conversation are people who view everything through the prism of racism.

Are there consequences to baseless accusations?

Henry W Jones said:
So by your logic, everything is racist.
I look forward to the response to that...


Henry W Jones said:
..."people were offended" By what?
People were offended that the film wasn't Indian Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Henry W Jones said:
What was the stereotype?
God knows...there is a list of the top 10 Indian Stereotypes, but I'm not so sure of the source. Regardless No one wants to post it here. Its a simple search and from what I gather it wouldn't help the argument for racism.

Henry W Jones said:
How are the Indians in the film belittled?
As I see it they're diversly portrayed, good and bad, just like people I've seen in my own race.

Henry W Jones said:
Anybody watching any film should not assume all people of a certain race act like characters in a film.
The article about the community college professor worried about the potential for childrens questions, (why is your religion so stupid?! What a gem...) is all about the relfections of simpletons.
 
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Vance

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I have no insight regarding a film I haven't seen. What I can say is that you find it difficult to discuss the supposed racism in Temple of Doom in terms of Temple of Doom.

Bull****. At this point you're just willfully blind to racism shown in the movie and have an emotional vested interest in defending the film. There is no level of proof that you would accept that there are those whom would find scenes in Temple of Doom racist - and you even go so far as to repeatedly demonize those people who are offended, as well as people, like myself, who merely point out that it was offensive.

So, let me flip this around, what, in your world, would be required for any film to be considered racist?

As for Henry, I feel no need to respond to him anymore since he's decided to start brazenly harassing users. It's clear he's not here to discuss anything and merely wants to drive away posters (such as RKO).
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Vance said:
Bull****. At this point you're just willfully blind to racism shown in the movie and have an emotional vested interest in defending the film. There is no level of proof that you would accept that there are those whom would find scenes in Temple of Doom racist - and you even go so far as to repeatedly demonize those people who are offended, as well as people, like myself, who merely point out that it was offensive.

So, let me flip this around, what, in your world, would be required for any film to be considered racist?

As for Henry, I feel no need to respond to him anymore since he's decided to start brazenly harassing users. It's clear he's not here to discuss anything and merely wants to drive away posters (such as RKO).

What are your talking about? I just want a solid answer from you and her. You get pissy when your opinions are questioned and she knows nothing about Indiana Jones and wildly brings up racism points that have nothing to do with the films. I don't want to drive away posters. You do by insulting and belittling those who disagree with you. Rocket and I are calmly asking you questions and you are getting emotional. You have questioned my character and I have questioned your opinion. Who really has the problem playing with others?

Did my line of questioning trip you up? That's a great way to dodge all my questions. Run like RKO Radio. Are you two on the track team?
 
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Vance

New member
Last time I'll ever be replying to you.

Henry W Jones said:
What are your talking about? I just want a solid answer from you and her.

Okay, you got your solid answers many times in this thread, and from more than just me or her. Each and every time you're responded with insults and insinuated that we have 'emotional' problems where we 'see the world through a racist lense' and even overtly accused us of racism ourserves. This is to say nothing of your own racist and mysogynist comments.

And then, of course, when your comments are called out for what they are, you get offensive yet again and declare any and all who disagree with you 'haters' (to use an overdone meme). At no point have you shown genuine interest in this discussion. I do not 'question your character', I already know your character, and it's one that is found extremely wanting.

I'm not pissy because I've been questioned. I'm annoyed that you've chosen to be a hateful little jerk at every opportunity in this thread. I honestly considered quitting The Raven because of you, I'm pretty sure that RKO is considering it, and I wouldn't be too surprised if some of our users haven't already done so. After all, you yourself drew the line in the sand by saying if people had any objections to any of the films, they didn't deserve to be able to post here.

So, yes, I would love to see you gone from The Raven, though that isn't my goal in posting on this thread. You definately owe numerous people an apology, but in your juvenile and hateful smugness I doubt you even care about what you're doing - the people you've belitted and insulted 'deserve' it, in your view, for the thought crime of not seeing things your way and instantly celebrating how right and wonderful you are.
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Vance said:
Last time I'll ever be replying to you.



Okay, you got your solid answers many times in this thread, and from more than just me or her. Each and every time you're responded with insults and insinuated that we have 'emotional' problems where we 'see the world through a racist lense' and even overtly accused us of racism ourserves. This is to say nothing of your own racist and mysogynist comments.

And then, of course, when your comments are called out for what they are, you get offensive yet again and declare any and all who disagree with you 'haters' (to use an overdone meme). At no point have you shown genuine interest in this discussion. I do not 'question your character', I already know your character, and it's one that is found extremely wanting.

I'm not pissy because I've been questioned. I'm annoyed that you've chosen to be a hateful little jerk at every opportunity in this thread. I honestly considered quitting The Raven because of you, I'm pretty sure that RKO is considering it, and I wouldn't be too surprised if some of our users haven't already done so. After all, you yourself drew the line in the sand by saying if people had any objections to any of the films, they didn't deserve to be able to post here.

So, yes, I would love to see you gone from The Raven, though that isn't my goal in posting on this thread. You definately owe numerous people an apology, but in your juvenile and hateful smugness I doubt you even care about what you're doing - the people you've belitted and insulted 'deserve' it, in your view, for the thought crime of not seeing things your way and instantly celebrating how right and wonderful you are.

See, you are FULL of hate. I do not agree with you, you read my post as an attack because whatever reason, I for the most part am calm in my postings while you actually have insulted me and attacked me several times in one of your many emotional outburst (including just now calling me a little jerk) and you would like to see me banned? For what? Disagreeing with you and a few others? Wow, that interesting from a guy all about injustice happening. I never said RKO didn not belong here because of her opinions on racism. I said she should know more about Indiana Jones. You like putting words in others mouths. Read with your brain, not emotions.

What you are saying is....... Don't have an opinion unless it is my opinion too.
 
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Stoo

Well-known member
RKORadio said:
I'm sure if someone was willing to do a newspaper search from 1984, they'd find plenty of examples of Temple being picketed for racism.
Hello, RKO. Don't be so sure of finding "plenty" of picketing examples from 1984 newspapers. It's doubtful that they were as common as you may believe but if you're willing to investigate, then go for it!:hat:

(Thanks for the PM, by the way.;))
TMan said:
Keep in mind too, the time frame of when Indiana Jones takes place is around the 40s and 50s. So racism wasn't seen in the way we see it today. In those days slavery was "allowed". Was it right ? No. But back then, it was "normal".
TMan, with all due respect, how old are you and what country are you from?:confused: We are talking about how the films were perceived upon their release in the '80s & onwards...

---
@I.M.J.: A little, action figure of Iron Man swoops in to blast everything in sight!!! WHOOOSH! Zappity-Zap! Ka-BLAM!! (and whatever else that guy in the 10-cent, tin suit does).:rolleyes:
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Vance. What racist statements have I made? What sexist comments? I am trying to understand why you and RKO Radio would quit because of my posts. Because I called you sensitive? You have now said you know how my character is. Enlighten me. Make sure you can explain your statements.
 

Vance

New member
Stoo said:
Hello, RKO. Don't be so sure of finding "plenty" of picketing examples from 1984 newspapers. It's doubtful that they were as common as you may believe but if you're willing to investigate, then go for it!:hat:

Depends on the area, I guess. I found some protests in most major cities - but I grew up south of Indianapolis and there weren't any protests around us.

TMan, with all due respect, how old are you and what country are you from?:confused: We are talking about how the films were perceived upon their release in the '80s & onwards...

I got to admit, that one confused me. Where the hell was he where slavery was legal and commonly accepted? It sure as hell wasn't anywhere in the Anglosphere...
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Vance said:
Depends on the area, I guess. I found some protests in most major cities - but I grew up south of Indianapolis and there weren't any protests around us.



I got to admit, that one confused me. Where the hell was he where slavery was legal and commonly accepted? It sure as hell wasn't anywhere in the Anglosphere...


Can you post the examples of the protests please?
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Henry W Jones said:
Vance. What racist statements have I made? What sexist comments? I am trying to understand why you and RKO Radio would quit because of my posts. Because I called you sensitive? You have now said you know how my character is. Enlighten me. Make sure you can explain your statements.

Not to put words into anyone's mouth, but I will say that pulling "You are woman and I hear you roar" seemingly out of nowhere caught my attention.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Vance said:
Depends on the area, I guess. I found some protests in most major cities - but I grew up south of Indianapolis and there weren't any protests around us.
Regarding the area: It must depend on area/demographics. Like your experience, there were no protests in my area (Montreal 1984). Even though I voted 'not-rascist', I am open to hear about any protests (unlike other 'non-racist' folk).
Vance said:
I got to admit, that one confused me. Where the hell was he where slavery was legal and commonly accepted? It sure as hell wasn't anywhere in the Anglosphere...
Who knows about that one! Which is why I want to know where he lives and what Indy movies took place in the 1940s?

---
Apart from that, I entered into this "political" discussion against my own promise (thanks / NO thanks to you, actually, Vance). Been meaning to reply, lately, but the sh*t has been piling high faster than a man can shovel!:eek:

@Rocket, my friend: You know that I love you...but you're next. It's a small (but important) detail about Pankot.:D :whip:

@Henry W Jones: Sit tight, Henry. You're on deck!:gun:
 

Vance

New member
Stoo said:
Even though I voted 'not-rascist', I am open to hear about any protests (unlike other 'non-racist' folk).

A quick trip on Google found a bunch in LA and Seattle. Apparently there was even an UN condemnation draft! In the 1980s, I was blissfully unaware of such things.

Who knows about that one! Which is why I want to know where he lives and what Indy movies took place in the 1940s?

Indiana Jones working DURING WWII to protect and recover 'ancient treasures' in wartime would have been cool.. but, no, I haven't seen that movie either.

Apart from that, I entered into this "political" discussion against my own promise (thanks / NO thanks to you, actually, Vance).

The first part of my plot is done... now I wait for the profit stage to begin!
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Attila the Professor said:
Not to put words into anyone's mouth, but I will say that pulling "You are woman and I hear you roar" seemingly out of nowhere caught my attention.

Thats not sexist. Thats me letting her know she doesn't have to pull the sex card. Anyone else?

Henry W Jones said:
Watching them and being a fan are two separate things. Why are you at the Raven? I am not attacking you, I am just curious. Your interest in the films seems minimal unless it is finding social issues in it. Even if you are "mindfully" trashing them, your interest seems to stop there and it tells me you are more interested in finding fault then appreciating the films. Your comments are never positive toward the movies and most of your comments are about sexism and racism. Get over it already. You are woman and we have all heard you roar.

Read the 2 sentences before it. It is not out of the blue.
 
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Henry W Jones

New member
Stoo said:
Regarding the area: It must depend on area/demographics. Like your experience, there were no protests in my area (Montreal 1984). Even though I voted 'not-rascist', I am open to hear about any protests (unlike other 'non-racist' folk).
Who knows about that one! Which is why I want to know where he lives and what Indy movies took place in the 1940s?

---
Apart from that, I entered into this "political" discussion against my own promise (thanks / NO thanks to you, actually, Vance). Been meaning to reply, lately, but the sh*t has been piling high faster than a man can shovel!:eek:

@Rocket, my friend: You know that I love you...but you're next. It's a small (but important) detail about Pankot.:D :whip: u

@Henry W Jones: Sit tight, Henry. You're on deck!:gun:

Stoo. I have no qualms with you other than your America bashing. I hope you realize this.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Henry W Jones said:
Thats not sexist. Thats me letting her know she doesn't have to pull the sex card. Anyone else?



Read the sentence before it. It is not out of the blue.

I did the first time I read your post. I think the implication that a critique is based in feminism is a bad thing is absurd. Besides, it seems to have little to do with <I>this</I> thread, as far as I've seen it. Incidentally, I don't see how your suggestion that she should get over sexism and racism are meant to make me friendlier to your argument.

Do I wish that RKO had taken Montana's advice to "put into words, with evidence, the reasoning behind [her] claims"? Absolutely. Do I resent her suggesting it's wrong to be rude to a lady as a way of avoiding more conversation? Yes. (Of course, I'd like to see less rudeness as a general rule, regardless of who is involved.)
 
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