indyfan85 said:It's up to the individual viewer to decide if there is a connection or not. Saying aliens are behind everything seems like a cop out though. I like to think there is more to the world of Indy than that.
indyfan85 said:sure you could say it was aliens all along but I doubt thats what the filmmakers had in mind, at all, when they were making Raiders.
Major West said:There's no such thing as heaven I'm afraid.
Major West said:Something that stood out for me on my last viewing of the film. Sallahs line about the Ark not being of this Earth. Perhaps Raiders is more like KOTCS than people think.
Pale Horse said:5) A 'man' who believes that heaven could only be determined after death, upon which he finds out that 'heaven' was actually with him, before death, and now he's lost it.
Indy's brother said:Heaven/the christian God, Kali, Jesus, Aliens, they are all what you make of them. None have been proven, and a person's opinion on these matters is not proof, either. Your world view (which is to say your "other-worldly" view) is less important than the journey it takes you on in life. That is kind of a theme to these movies.
Not to be concerned, though. The blu-ray release of the OT will undoubtedly have some of George's modernized tinkering in them.....I for one hope that he digitally puts alien faces on the spirits floating out of the ark and that will clear things up for everyone.
In all seriousness, concerning the tone of these movies and their unearthly implications, KOTCS is the only one where the supernatural explanation was put completely in view of the audience. Which, to be perfectly clear, means that we did not see God, Kali, or Jesus in the OT. But we did see an Alien. No room for questioning. Which, in hindsight, is another chink in KOTC's armor.
If GL was going to intentionally make an alien connection to ROTLA, KOTCS was his big opportunity, and he didn't do it.
chicago103 said:Just to play devil's advocate in KOTCS we saw the image of what is typically associated as an alien as in an extraterrestrial. Oxley said they were "transdimensional beings" but how did he know that for sure? Did he read a text? Did he go through a portal to another dimension himself? It just seemed odd to me that he said that without any explanation as to how he came to that conclusion. Maybe the KOTCS beings really are supernatural beings, afterall wouldnt "heaven" or any type of afterlife be by definition another dimension anyways? I mean really when we enter this kind of territory the lines between a natural explanation and a supernatural explanation are very blurred. Really they are just terms that are used to pit rationalists against faith. Afterall if it somehow could be proven that the afterlife is real would it be considered "natural" or "supernatural"? If the existence of God could be proven would that proof make him supernatural or the interdimensional natural being that created the universe? When you think about it that way both are essentially the same thing at that point and the two terms are just words that we humans made up in a vain attempt to categorize things we do and dont understand.
If anything the fact that the KOTCS beings are described as "transdimensional" as opposed to straight out aliens from a solar system 103 light years from earth or whatever reinforces the supernaturalness of the previous three movies.
chicago103 said:Just to play devil's advocate in KOTCS we saw the image of what is typically associated as an alien as in an extraterrestrial. Oxley said they were "transdimensional beings" but how did he know that for sure? Did he read a text? Did he go through a portal to another dimension himself? It just seemed odd to me that he said that without any explanation as to how he came to that conclusion. Maybe the KOTCS beings really are supernatural beings, afterall wouldnt "heaven" or any type of afterlife be by definition another dimension anyways? I mean really when we enter this kind of territory the lines between a natural explanation and a supernatural explanation are very blurred. Really they are just terms that are used to pit rationalists against faith. Afterall if it somehow could be proven that the afterlife is real would it be considered "natural" or "supernatural"? If the existence of God could be proven would that proof make him supernatural or the interdimensional natural being that created the universe? When you think about it that way both are essentially the same thing at that point and the two terms are just words that we humans made up in a vain attempt to categorize things we do and dont understand.
If anything the fact that the KOTCS beings are described as "transdimensional" as opposed to straight out aliens from a solar system 103 light years from earth or whatever reinforces the supernaturalness of the previous three movies.
Walton said:1: The previous 3 movies need nothing to reinforce the supernatural nature of the artifacts Indy pursues in them.
2: God is supernatural in that by definition there is no one greater than Him. Furthermore, He always is, was, and will be (in other words, He is un-created). The existence of aliens (inter/trans-dimensional beings) does not affect God's supernatural status. He's apart from the created realm (if you want a Biblical definition). IDBs would still be reckoned as part of the created order. So they teleport, so what. They obviously die and stay that way once killed. God does not.
3: As for Ox, seems he knew what he knew because the Skull filled him in, the same way Indy knew he was chosen to take it to Akator: "because it told me to."
Montana Smith said:Yet there is never any proof of the existence of God in the first three movies - only occurrences attributed to God by characters who have no other evidence to the contrary.
I wonder whether Indy would attribute Mola Ram's powers to God or the Devil in Christian terms? Or whether he does accept a pantheon of different gods, which is what KOTCS suggests by introducing the first material evidence of a god-like creature in an Indiana Jones movie.
Gods are more interesting when they're more human-like, as opposed to infinitely god-like. The IDBs more closely resemble the gods of Greek or Norse myth who were closer to mortals than the indestructible all-powerful Christian deity. The IDBs display weakness in requiring human assistance.
Montana Smith said:Yet there is never any proof of the existence of God in the first three movies - only occurrences attributed to God by characters who have no other evidence to the contrary.
Indy's brother said:Thanks for that, Montana. I think you were able to more directly make one of my points. That the supernatural explanation is implied without being %100 stated, proven in a lab, etc, which lead to the original topic of this thread. As it should be in these movies. It allows the viewer to draw their own conclusions on the topic, just like we do in life. I'm sure that wasn't the original intent, though. I think GL, SS, and Kasdan simply decided not to be preachy, or insensitive to viewers of other faiths. Yet another genius brushstroke in ROTLA, the greatest adventure movie ever made!
Montana Smith said:It must be tempting for those of faith to see the movie in terms of faith, to see nothing but God.
Walton said:Is that a problem? Some of the people who post on this thread clearly state they are not people of faith -- they see the movie accordingly. Hello, Pot, I'm Kettle.
It must be tempting for those of reason to see the movie in terms of reason, to see nothing but rationalizations.
It must be tempting for atheists to see the movie in terms of science, to not see God.
All I'm saying is each of us will advocate or excuse based on our individual worldviews. The temptation to interpret as such is equal, faith or none.
Montana Smith said:The supernatural is a plot device in the movies which expands the horizon of Indy's world. He inhabits a fictional world created purely for adventure.