Suspenseful enough?

MolaRam2 · May 27, 2008

davejames said:
Actually, and I'm sure this has been brought up somewhere already, I was surprised that he didn't even TRY to start one of the other hundred cars lining the street.

It would be a long shot, but considering there were apparently working radios and TVs, maybe one of those cars would have worked too. Of course, it looked like that one escaping car got incinerated, so maybe it would be a moot point anyway. lol

In reality he would have had a lot better chance to survive if he tried to escape in a car, than to try to hide in a fridge. I can't believe Spielberg 'nuked the fridge.'

Spielberg's upcoming Lincoln film will feature Lincoln avoding John Wilkes Booth by hiding in a fridge.

Agent Z · May 27, 2008

davejames said:
It would be a long shot, but considering there were apparently working radios and TVs...

I liked that there was apparently no water coming out of the house faucet, but when Indy goes outside, we see water hoses and sprinklers going full-blast.

davejames · May 27, 2008

I just loved how CERTAIN he seemed to be that the fridge would protect him. He just flings it open, yanks out all the trays, and jumps in without a second thought.

Like it's a survival tactic he read in a magazine somewhere. LOL

Agent Z · May 27, 2008

davejames said:
I just loved how CERTAIN he seemed to be that the fridge would protect him. He just flings it open, yanks out all the trays, and jumps in without a second thought.

Like it's a survival tactic he read in a magazine somewhere. LOL

Well, in his defense, it was pretty much his last option and better than just standing there.

Now, you want to talk about absurd confidence? Flash forward to Marion glancing at a cliffside tree one moment and then having enough conviction to risk her and everyone else's life driving off of the cliff to use said tree as a landing ramp. She even beams proudly at how clever it all is!

A_True_Believer · May 28, 2008

Agent Z said:
Well, in his defense, it was pretty much his last option and better than just standing there.

Now, you want to talk about absurd confidence? Flash forward to Marion glancing at a cliffside tree one moment and then having enough conviction to risk her and everyone else's life driving off of the cliff to use said tree as a landing ramp. She even beams proudly at how clever it all is!

Now, you want to talk about absurd confidence? Flash forward to Indy glancing at an inflatable raft one moment and then having enough conviction to risk his and everyone else's life jumping out of a plane to use said raft as a parachute. He even beams proudly at how clever it all is!

Not trying to be mean. I'm just making a point. The other Indy films have been around long enough that we've come to accept their absurdities. In time, we'll do the same for Kingdom.

Agent Z · May 28, 2008

A_True_Believer said:
Now, you want to talk about absurd confidence? Flash forward to Indy glancing at an inflatable raft one moment and then having enough conviction to risk his and everyone else's life jumping out of a plane to use said raft as a parachute. He even beams proudly at how clever it all is!

Not trying to be mean. I'm just making a point. The other Indy films have been around long enough that we've come to accept their absurdities. In time, we'll do the same for Kingdom.

Well, again, what other option did Indy have at that point? Stay with the crashing plane? Jump without the raft?

You see, there are ways to sell the implausible. Marion driving that duck off of the cliff when there were other options was just silly. No way around it.

A_True_Believer said:
He even beams proudly at how clever it all is!

I don't recall that at all. I remember him smiling out of relief when they thought they were in the clear ("You see, that wasn't so bad!"), to set up the punchline of the 2nd fall.

A_True_Believer · May 28, 2008

Agent Z said:
Well, again, what other option did Indy have at that point? Stay with the crashing plane? Jump without the raft?

You see, there are ways to sell the implausible. Marion driving that duck off of the cliff was just silly. No way around it.

Well, again, what other option did Marion have at that point? Stay with the advancing killer ants? Jump without the duck?

It's not really more silly than anything else in the series. I just don't think we're yet used to seeing fresh acts of insanity.

And while we're on the subject, to all those that thought the waterfall bit was ridiculous, remember that we readily accepted it in another Harrison Ford film: The Fugitive.

Edit: About Indy "beaming proudly" with the raft, it's a bit of a stretch but yes, I was referring to the line "That wasn't so bad, was it?". It's still a parallel.

Indy Smith · May 28, 2008

I thought she was just going to fly off the cliff and land in the water. I thought maybe she just knew she was in a boat car and did it because of that.

Agent Z · May 28, 2008

A_True_Believer said:
Well, again, what other option did Marion have at that point? Stay with the advancing killer ants? Jump without the duck?

I think I would have tried looking for an alternative route....and, it was already established that vehicles could go past/through the ants (like the one that picked Spalko up).

I mean, the last thing I would have tried was driving off a cliff onto a tree.

If I did drive off the cliff, I sure as hell wouldn't be as certain and composed of my action like I was going to the Akator mini mart to pick up some Indy M&M's.

A_True_Believer said:
Edit: About Indy "beaming proudly" with the raft, it's a bit of a stretch but yes, I was referring to the line "That wasn't so bad, was it?". It's still a parallel.

But a bad parallel all the same.

Agent Z · May 28, 2008

Indy Smith said:
I thought she was just going to fly off the cliff and land in the water. I thought maybe she just knew she was in a boat car and did it because of that.

We would call that "suicide" here in the states, mate.

Agent Z · May 28, 2008

Agent Z said:
I think I would have tried looking for an alternative route....and, it was already established that vehicles could go past/through the ants (like the one that picked Spalko up).

I mean, the last thing I would have tried was driving off a cliff onto a tree.

If I did drive off the cliff, I sure as hell wouldn't be as certain and composed of my action like I was going to the Akator mini mart to pick up some Indy M&M's.

The more I think about this scene, the sillier Marion's decision comes across.

Let's look at where they are at this point:

1) The Commies are ahead of them, scaling down the cliffside. No immediate threat there.

2) The good guys have the crystal skull, so heading home would have ended it all there anyway.

3) The crystal skull was already shown to repel the ants, so they could use it on the way back if needed.

Yeah, it's a just a duckoad of silly.

Jones_Happens · May 28, 2008

I disagree that the Russians weren't venomous enough. How about when they gunned down the U.S. soldiers in the first five minutes. Then they shot up all the Ugha warriors in cold blood.

davejames · May 28, 2008

A_True_Believer said:
Now, you want to talk about absurd confidence? Flash forward to Indy glancing at an inflatable raft one moment and then having enough conviction to risk his and everyone else's life jumping out of a plane to use said raft as a parachute. He even beams proudly at how clever it all is!

Not trying to be mean. I'm just making a point. The other Indy films have been around long enough that we've come to accept their absurdities. In time, we'll do the same for Kingdom.

They're not even the same. Not only is the inflatable raft presented in a much more original and witty way in that movie, but it's the kind of thing you can imagine just might WORK in the real world. Obviously it wouldn't be your first option in an emergency, but it does have a strange kind of logic to it (otherwise Mythbusters never even would have tried to replicate it).

The Marion driving off the cliff, magically landing on a tree branch (which them drops them safely into the water) is the kind of thing you imagine only working in a CARTOON, not in the real world.

The odds that are a lot better that the raft will float down on the wind than your jeep will land on one, lone tree branch under a cliff (and not break in the process). That's the kind of thing that would take a professional stuntman days and maybe months to work out beforehand.

RaideroftheArk · Apr 15, 2010

MolaRam2 said:
In reality he would have had a lot better chance to survive if he tried to escape in a car, than to try to hide in a fridge. I can't believe Spielberg 'nuked the fridge.'

Spielberg's upcoming Lincoln film will feature Lincoln avoding John Wilkes Booth by hiding in a fridge.

I searched around the boards to see if anyone brought up Indy escaping the nuclear blast in a car and this was the closest topic I could find. I wanted to post this idea I had since I've seen the movie. Forgive me if there is a better thread for this or if somebody has already come up with this idea.

When I first saw the hot rod in the opening scene of this movie, I thought everybody had to be thinking what I was thinking...Indy needs to drive that thing.

After seeing the Doomtown scene several times I always thought it would have been perfect for Indy to escape driving that Hot rod. The kids could have sneaked onto the test sight just before Indy enters the area. As they are parked hanging out, the girls could worried that they are going to get caught as the guys carelessly lounge in the sun and tell them they are being square.

With that, one of the girls spots the Russian agents looking around for Indy and urges the boys to get out up and get them out of there. They try but the car won't start.

Then we cut to Indy doing his thing...entering the house, looking around, realizing what is happening...alarm sounds...he chases after the Russians "Fine don't wait for me!" and instead of going back into the house, he spots the teenagers trying to start the car. Runs over to them "Move over kid, things around about to get really hot around here." Ford jumps into the car as the kids are freaking out asking "what's happening!?"

He tells them to hang on as he speeds out of doomtown. Just as they are catching up to the Russians he notices the aftershock in his rear view mirror. With that, Indy throws the car into overdrive and leaves the Russians to be consumed by the aftershock.

Although they had managed to outrun the Russians, the blast still causes Indy to lose control of the car which spins out off the road and over some embankment...possibly some fallout shelter. The air clears, Indy shakes the dust from his hat, one of the kids is freaking out because his care is totaled. Indy makes some kind of remark like, "Trust me kid, you almost had bigger problems" as the group of them all notice he's looking up at a huge mushroom cloud.

Anyway...something different... It would have been great to see him drive that car. It would have been a great throwback to American Graffiti.

kongisking · Apr 15, 2010

RaideroftheArk said:
I searched around the boards to see if anyone brought up Indy escaping the nuclear blast in a car and this was the closest topic I could find. I wanted to post this idea I had since I've seen the movie. Forgive me if there is a better thread for this or if somebody has already come up with this idea.

When I first saw the hot rod in the opening scene of this movie, I thought everybody had to be thinking what I was thinking...Indy needs to drive that thing.

After seeing the Doomtown scene several times I always thought it would have been perfect for Indy to escape driving that Hot rod. The kids could have sneaked onto the test sight just before Indy enters the area. As they are parked hanging out, the girls could worried that they are going to get caught as the guys carelessly lounge in the sun and tell them they are being square.

With that, one of the girls spots the Russian agents looking around for Indy and urges the boys to get out up and get them out of there. They try but the car won't start.

Then we cut to Indy doing his thing...entering the house, looking around, realizing what is happening...alarm sounds...he chases after the Russians "Fine don't wait for me!" and instead of going back into the house, he spots the teenagers trying to start the car. Runs over to them "Move over kid, things around about to get really hot around here." Ford jumps into the car as the kids are freaking out asking "what's happening!?"

He tells them to hang on as he speeds out of doomtown. Just as they are catching up to the Russians he notices the aftershock in his rear view mirror. With that, Indy throws the car into overdrive and leaves the Russians to be consumed by the aftershock.

Although they had managed to outrun the Russians, the blast still causes Indy to lose control of the car which spins out off the road and over some embankment...possibly some fallout shelter. The air clears, Indy shakes the dust from his hat, one of the kids is freaking out because his care is totaled. Indy makes some kind of remark like, "Trust me kid, you almost had bigger problems" as the group of them all notice he's looking up at a huge mushroom cloud.

Anyway...something different... It would have been great to see him drive that car. It would have been a great throwback to American Graffiti.

That sounds awesome! Miles better than my insane "Indy jumps into the Ark of the Covenant instead of a fridge" alternate idea.

MaxPhactor23 · Apr 15, 2010

herr gruber said:
From what I recall, Last Crusade was sorely lacking in the suspense department. It was all about Ooooh, look! It's Sean Connery!

See I'd have to respectfully disagree. For me some of the most suspenseful moments were in Crusade - particularly the tank fight and Donovan shooting Henry. You know Indiana isn?t going to die, deep down you just understand this, but Henry?he?s wasn?t guaranteed. In Crystal Skull you don?t have any moments like that with the Russians, there?s nothing despicable or even traitorous about them. Spalko sure tried to kill our heroes quite a bit, but she?s the only one to have never actually succeeded in truly wounding any of them out of the entire saga. Indiana is shot and beaten up to a pulp in Raiders; add on mind-controlled and tortured to that for Doom. Crusade has our foe literally shooting one of our key protagonists. The Russians never achieved much of anything to that level?dare I say not even much at all. They just struck me as bumbling over threatening. Above and beyond I wanted to see Spalko, after Mac finally played out his usefulness to her, finally take that sword and thrust it straight through him in the Skull?s chamber, solidifying that she?s not playing around?alas, was not to be.

MaxPhactor23 · Apr 15, 2010

A_True_Believer said:
Well, again, what other option did Marion have at that point? Stay with the advancing killer ants? Jump without the duck?

It's not really more silly than anything else in the series. I just don't think we're yet used to seeing fresh acts of insanity.

And while we're on the subject, to all those that thought the waterfall bit was ridiculous, remember that we readily accepted it in another Harrison Ford film: The Fugitive.

Edit: About Indy "beaming proudly" with the raft, it's a bit of a stretch but yes, I was referring to the line "That wasn't so bad, was it?". It's still a parallel.

Now I've been over this time and time again, but there's a huge misconception that comes along with this argument…especially when it seems to be the most cited moment in the entire original trilogy used to defend Crystal Skulls downright cartoon-level silliness. As someone mentioned, the Myth Busters proved that the raft trick is indeed more plausible than meets the eye. In fact apparently it’s downright possible! Plus placed in a literal life or death moment…why not chance it? It’s better than certain death, right?

Now for me Marion’s duck boat cliff dive wouldn’t even be all that bad so long as the “rubber tree” didn’t flyswatter back up to hit our communistic comrades. Now that…that was just impossible! The same can be said for surviving a nuclear blast in a fridge, lead lined or not. It could certainly be argued that even the mine cart jump (seen in Doom) and the miraculous landing back on the tracks, inarguably highly unlikely to ridiculous levels, is still not applicable as it’s indeed still possible, no matter how doubtful. There’s a defining difference between improbability and impossibility.

Crystal Skull had moments of sheer impossibility, heightening the cinematic fun of the improbable (seen in the originals) to be now raised to downright over-the-top levels of escalated cartoon slapstick impossible. The counter-argument around here always turns to the McGuffin, something akin to “Ghosts that melt faces are impossible, I don’t hear you complaining about that!” Yes they are, but I’ve never seen that applicable either. Each Indiana Jones story has been motivated by myth or legend. They all culminate in real myth (yes I’m aware of that being an oxymoron), but were placed in realistic settings like Hilter’s actual interest in archaeology and the occult or the Thuggee cult of India. It's always been a blending of realism with mythology. Much of Crystal Skull’s most unbelievable or unfeasible moments were outside of the fantasy element (that was this stories focal point - the Skulls) and instead were during action scenes, moments the previous films always made improbable, but not outright impossible. Skull broke the Indiana Jones formula established by the originals in more than a few ways.

Darth Vile · Apr 15, 2010

MaxPhactor23 said:
See I'd have to respectfully disagree. For me some of the most suspenseful moments were in Crusade - particularly the tank fight and Donovan shooting Henry. You know Indiana isn’t going to die, deep down you just understand this, but Henry…he’s wasn’t guaranteed. In Crystal Skull you don’t have any moments like that with the Russians, there’s nothing despicable or even traitorous about them. Spalko sure tried to kill our heroes quite a bit, but she’s the only one to have never actually succeeded in truly wounding any of them out of the entire saga. Indiana is shot and beaten up to a pulp in Raiders; add on mind-controlled and tortured to that for Doom. Crusade has our foe literally shooting one of our key protagonists. The Russians never achieved much of anything to that level…dare I say not even much at all. They just struck me as bumbling over threatening. Above and beyond I wanted to see Spalko, after Mac finally played out his usefulness to her, finally take that sword and thrust it straight through him in the Skull’s chamber, solidifying that she’s not playing around…alas, was not to be.

I'd agree with you... Two key moments of suspense in TLC that KOTCS never quite matches i.e. the tank racing to oblivion and Henry Jones senior being shot. KOTCS, whilst it has many elements of suspense that it does quite well, doesn't really achieve it in the key scenes i.e. the jungle chase and Akator interior. However, in KOTCS defence, take the tank scene out of TLC and it's action/suspense scenes are pretty meagre.

MaxPhactor23 said:
Now I've been over this time and time again, but there's a huge misconception that comes along with this argument…especially when it seems to be the most cited moment in the entire original trilogy used to defend Crystal Skulls downright cartoon-level silliness. As someone mentioned, the Myth Busters proved that the raft trick is indeed more plausible than meets the eye. In fact apparently it’s downright possible! Plus placed in a literal life or death moment…why not chance it? It’s better than certain death, right?

Now for me Marion’s duck boat cliff dive wouldn’t even be all that bad so long as the “rubber tree” didn’t flyswatter back up to hit our communistic comrades. Now that…that was just impossible! The same can be said for surviving a nuclear blast in a fridge, lead lined or not. It could certainly be argued that even the mine cart jump (seen in Doom) and the miraculous landing back on the tracks, inarguably highly unlikely to ridiculous levels, is still not applicable as it’s indeed still possible, no matter how doubtful. There’s a defining difference between improbability and impossibility.

Crystal Skull had moments of sheer impossibility, heightening the cinematic fun of the improbable (seen in the originals) to be now raised to downright over-the-top levels of escalated cartoon slapstick impossible.

To be fair... mythbusters has been brought up many times, and its's my understanding that it demonstrated that the jump from a plane, and corresponding dive off a mountain top, was impossible. Also, I'd agree that KOTCS has 3 standout moments of madness i.e. the fridge hurtling in the air, the monkey swing and the duck going over the edge (like them or loathe them, they are overtly outlandish and cartoon like). However, I'd argue that TOD, for example has many more moments including jumping out of an aeroplane, mine cart leaps and collapsing bridges (the latter I would always acknowledge as a brilliant set piece non the less). So it seems to me, the issue is more about how the spectacle is achieved rather than it's premise or implausibility.

RaideroftheArk · Apr 15, 2010

kongisking said:
That sounds awesome! Miles better than my insane "Indy jumps into the Ark of the Covenant instead of a fridge" alternate idea.

Thanks! Again, just an alternative idea to him escaping plus a little homage to another Lucas movie.

MaxPhactor23 said:
Above and beyond I wanted to see Spalko, after Mac finally played out his usefulness to her, finally take that sword and thrust it straight through him in the Skull’s chamber, solidifying that she’s not playing around…alas, was not to be.

I kind of wanted something like this as well.

Maybe instead of Mac saying something about just being a double agent he states to Spalko, "I did what you asked, now take the bloody thing and let me be on my way." As he's holding Indy at gunpoint Spalko says something like "You understand Comrade, we have no further use for you."

Then it's a standoff between Mac, Spalko and the 2 other Russians. Indy tries to plead "Mac, just put the gun down..." But Mac gets spooked as one of the Russian agents takes a step forward. Mac takes a shot and misses, turns to aim at Spalko but is run through by her sword. As she they are face to face she utters something in Russian and rips the sword from his body causing Mac to fall.

Indy rushes over to him as Marion clutches Mutt. In his weakened state Mac utters, "Sorry Jonesy...can't get out of this one...I've been nothing but a fool chasing after a fortune... You gotta get outta here mate...while you still can." He is interrupted by Spalko reattaching the Skull...the machine starts up...Mac pushes Indy away and urges him to get out. As Indy, Mutt, Marion and Oxly exit the chamber, the 2 Russians try to follow after them, but Mac trips them up and holds onto their legs. Indy torn wants to save Mac, turns to see that Mac has saved them from being pursued...Mac nods to Indy as to indicate that he has the Russians and as a final farewell to his long time friend. Indy nods back and continues to run from the crumbling chamber.

Montana Smith · Apr 15, 2010

Darth Vile said:
To be fair... mythbusters has been brought up many times, and its's my understanding that it demonstrated that the jump from a plane, and corresponding dive off a mountain top, was impossible. Also, I'd agree that KOTCS has 3 standout moments of madness i.e. the fridge hurtling in the air, the monkey swing and the duck going over the edge (like them or loathe them, they are overtly outlandish and cartoon like). However, I'd argue that TOD, for example has many more moments including jumping out of an aeroplane, mine cart leaps and collapsing bridges (the latter I would always acknowledge as a brilliant set piece non the less). So it seems to me, the issue is more about how the spectacle is achieved rather than it's premise or implausibility.

I was going to resist wading into this discussion, as I'll only end up repeating myself. However, you've said it all, Darth! I agree with your summary. That's the way I see it: outlandish and cartoon-like. And that's the way I've come to love the weird world of Indy. It's larger than life. It's mad. But Indy leads a charmed life. He may not always get the prize but he's imbued with a supernatural luck for survival.

Suspenseful enough?

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