TheRaider.net
 

Go Back   The Raven > The Films > Indiana Jones Trilogy
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-31-2012, 07:35 AM   #1
Darwin Jones
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Where the cup that holds the blood of...
Posts: 43
Signs in Turkish (Iskenderun Train Station)

Hi, I leave here this picture in which you can find signs written in Turkish from Iskenderun Train Station during the shooting of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade:
Darwin Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 08:20 AM   #2
Stoo
IndyFan
 
Stoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 8,030
Nice going, Darwin! I love stuff like this. Just goes to show how much work went into decorating the set in Spain for such a short scene.

Do you speak Turkish?
Stoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 08:48 AM   #3
Archaeos
IndyFan
 
Archaeos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Not The British Museum
Posts: 246
Phantastic effort! And an awesome contribution, given that we recently had some much-needed Ottoman/Turkey emphasis (like here, here and here).

As I am currently learning Turkish for personal reasons, this gave me a good reason for vocabulary check-up . Do you speak Turkish?

I always loved the İskenderun set in LC, and still think that this and the general locale was not used to the maximum of its potential . Even one sentence about contextualising the Hatay situation of 1938 would have given some richer texture to it: for example when Vogel, Donovan and Schneider engage the Sultan. The lack of just one sentence about preferential politics for Hatay from the Reich would have been far more sinister (and realistic) than the clown-esque Rolls-Royce Phantom II barter.

It should be noted that of course just a mere 10 years prior to the time LC is set, in 1928, the Turkish alphabet was introduced throughout the then just 5 year old Turkish Republic. A decree of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk removed the Arabic script that had been used for centuries, and replaced it phonologically with the simpler Latin script. This was part of his drive to radically increase literacy, but also modernise and secularise his country in line with Europe and move away from the Perso-Arabic sphere of influence. Just 10 years earlier, this train station signage would have looked completely different.

Just imagine if someone today would introduce a new language reform, requiring a new script to learn by everybody immediately. The relatively marginal German orthography reform of 1996 generated quite a brouhaha back then. And here in Britain/England, people already revolt over the thought of metric as International System of Units...

Last edited by Archaeos : 05-31-2012 at 09:07 AM.
Archaeos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 09:04 AM   #4
Archaeos
IndyFan
 
Archaeos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Not The British Museum
Posts: 246
By the way: the correct spelling would be 'Kahvehane', not 'Kahyehane', meaning "café" or "coffee house (in the French or Austrian sense) rather than "tea-shop" (which is much more an English concept than a Turkish one).

I cannot make out of the writing on that sign well enough. It does look like a Y (which would be incorrect), but could be a very narrow V.

'Çayhane' should not be mistaken with tea-shop, as this means the distinct Turkish tea as a drink itself. And 'Kahvesi' on the side arch of the wooden porch means the original Turkish coffee brew.
Both delicious, btw.

Last edited by Archaeos : 05-31-2012 at 09:10 AM.
Archaeos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 10:11 AM   #5
Stoo
IndyFan
 
Stoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 8,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaeos
Just imagine if someone today would introduce a new language reform, requiring a new script to learn by everybody immediately. The relatively marginal German orthography reform of 1996 generated quite a brouhaha back then. And here in Britain/England, people already revolt over the thought of metric as International System of Units...
Archaeos, you're just a fountain of interesting information! I remember when Canada went metric and it was a pain the tukas. Decades later, there are still people who resist using the system so I can imagine how frustrating it would've been to have a whole new language thrust upon the nation.

Wasn't it Atatürk who also made it illegal to wear a fez in Turkey? Therefore, Sallah shouldn't be wearing one in 1938?
Stoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 10:12 AM   #6
Darwin Jones
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Where the cup that holds the blood of...
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Nice going, Darwin! I love stuff like this. Just goes to show how much work went into decorating the set in Spain for such a short scene.

Do you speak Turkish?

I´m Sorry, I don´t speak Turkish. I'm just a fan of that movie, and I was curious to know all those signs.
Darwin Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 10:24 AM   #7
Darwin Jones
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Where the cup that holds the blood of...
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaeos
By the way: the correct spelling would be 'Kahvehane', not 'Kahyehane', meaning "café" or "coffee house (in the French or Austrian sense) rather than "tea-shop" (which is much more an English concept than a Turkish one).

I cannot make out of the writing on that sign well enough. It does look like a Y (which would be incorrect), but could be a very narrow V.

'Çayhane' should not be mistaken with tea-shop, as this means the distinct Turkish tea as a drink itself. And 'Kahvesi' on the side arch of the wooden porch means the original Turkish coffee brew.
Both delicious, btw.
It is difficult to read the signs of the images I have. It is possible that these ads have written what you say. Maybe when the Bluray was be released could be clarify these words!


Thank you all for the comments.
Darwin Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 01:51 PM   #8
Archaeos
IndyFan
 
Archaeos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Not The British Museum
Posts: 246
~ Post includes a little off-topic excursion on Sallah and wearing a Fez ~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwin Jones
I´m Sorry, I don´t speak Turkish. I'm just a fan of that movie, and I was curious to know all those signs.

Honestly, that is sooo .

I wish there would be more Turkish/Ottoman material around. It also shows that there are so many facets in "Indiana Jones" still to explore and lay bare by the crowdsourced hub/pub that is The Raven.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Archaeos, you're just a fountain of interesting information!

Nah, just a coincidence. Plus trying to redeem myself here as I gained so much knowledge from you all on the world of Indy while lurking around here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Wasn't it Atatürk who also made it illegal to wear a fez in Turkey? Therefore, Sallah shouldn't be wearing one in 1938?

That's an interesting point to discuss !

You are of course correct! Atatürk banned the Fez, but he approached this in two (nowadays funny-sounding, but societally very effective) steps:

In line with his ideas for the Turkish Republic that he proclaimed in 1923, he first made it mandatory for civil servants to wear solid headwear — as opposed to a turban, which was the local headgear in the Ottoman Empire. This still allowed wearing the Fez. He also set out wider rules what to wear in public state-owned places (like universities, offices, etc., and train stations).

As second step, in 1925, he declared that "...[a] civilized international mode of dress [is to be adopted], including a headdress with a brim; this I wish to say openly. The name of this headdress is a ‘hat´..."
This then banned the Fez across Turkey.

Now to Sallah: Sallah is of course Egyptian, i.e. not a citizen of the Turkish republic but of what was then the Sultanate-Kingdom of Egypt were the Fez was allowed and popularly worn. As a traveller from abroad, he was free to wear whatever he wanted to wear in Turkey; just like the Arab sheikhs do with their Kandura and Guthra headscarves which you can make out in the background of the mid-centre of the picture posted by DarwinJones.

But there is one more thing:
In the real spring and early summer of 1938 (when I naïvely assume LC takes place), İskenderun and Antakya were located in the Sanjak of Alexandretta, part of French-mandated Syria, another oddball Sultanate-Kingdom in which Fezes were allowed and commonly worn. This makes the multitude of Fezes on the platform realistic.
But towards the end of 1938 (after our four heroes presumably would have already left the area), Atatürk power-brokered political change for this region that was mostly inhabitated by Turks: He played a clever hand with the French and had the republican Hatay State declared, autonomous if not quasi-independent from Syria. A Kemalist reform was immediately kickstarted there, which allowed a smooth "friendly" incorporation of Hatay as a province into Turkey just a year later. This of course included banning the Fez for all the local populace.
So this means that LC showing general Fez-wearing in Alexandretta - with Sallah's looks not raising an eyebrow or easily marking him as a foreigner - is correct; but general Fez-wearing (and a Syrian Sultan meddling in regional politics proper) in Hatay is not correct - except for Sallah who would then clearly be seen as a traveller from abroad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwin Jones
It is difficult to read the signs of the images I have. It is possible that these ads have written what you say. Maybe when the Bluray was be released could be clarify these words!

Yeah, that is definitely something to analyse when the Blu-ray Disc edition comes out..:

1) 'Kahvehane' would be correct to mean a local "coffee house" or "café", in the Austrian or French sense.
'Kahyehane' would clearly be an error on part of the LC crew.

2) 'Çayhane' looks correct, and means "tea house" but not in the English tea-shop understanding.

3) 'Kahvesi' on the side arch of the wooden porch means the original Turkish "coffee" brew, and is just an advert for the drinks on offer. Maybe on the opposite side of the wooden porch (not visible from this camera perspective), there is another sign equally just saying 'Çay' for the original Turkish "tea" brew. If I would be the owner, I would have put the signs on my place like that

Last edited by Archaeos : 05-31-2012 at 01:57 PM.
Archaeos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 02:50 AM   #9
Darwin Jones
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Where the cup that holds the blood of...
Posts: 43
Other places

In this picture you can see another poster in Turkish appears to be in the same wooden building that was on the platform of the station. Is it the same tea-shop?
Look at the license plate: "Ankara H-472"


Darwin Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 03:52 AM   #10
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
What an interesting thread this turned out to be!

Great observations and input, Darwin & Archaeos.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 07:58 AM   #11
Archaeos
IndyFan
 
Archaeos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Not The British Museum
Posts: 246
Grandiose, Darwin!

Ha, Stoo will be overcome with joy. That's the fourth mention of Ankara hunted down!

[Edit: originally typed 'third mention', of course it's the fourth mention within "Indiana Jones" films/episodes]

Last edited by Archaeos : 06-01-2012 at 08:25 AM.
Archaeos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 08:08 AM   #12
Darwin Jones
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Where the cup that holds the blood of...
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaeos
Grandiose, Darwin!

Ha, Stoo will be overcome with joy. That's the third mention of Ankara hunted down!
Thanks Archaeos, you know that is written in the Iskenderun street-teahouse of the last photo?
HANH AYAD? What do you think?
Darwin Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 08:14 AM   #13
Archaeos
IndyFan
 
Archaeos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Not The British Museum
Posts: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwin Jones
In this picture you can see another poster in Turkish appears to be in the same wooden building that was on the platform of the station. Is it the same tea-shop?

The wooden beams and inlays, and the overall height above the arched entrance looks different to the wooden porch on the platform. If the original wooden material is the same, then the set carpenters did put together a newly constructed shed out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwin Jones
HANH AYAD? What do you think?

You are right, it's definitely none of the tea/coffee-related signs used on the platform, but I have mighty problems making out what it says. Am toying around with different resolutions on my AirBook, but the best I can propose is

H - A - Z(?) - H (or) R --- A - Y - A - D

Anyone?

~~~~

Incidentally, regarding Ford T in Turkey: It seems the Turkey branch was founded in 1928, and assembly began locally in 1929. So that Turkish Tin Lizzy had quite a tough max-of-9-years of life by the looks of it (unless it's an older import, of course)

Last edited by Archaeos : 06-01-2012 at 08:23 AM.
Archaeos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 11:16 AM   #14
WilliamBoyd8
IndyFan
 
WilliamBoyd8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 788
Ankara used to be named Angora and that is where Angora wool came from.

Angora was a small Turkish town when the capital was moved there in 1923.

WilliamBoyd8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2012, 12:59 PM   #15
Stoo
IndyFan
 
Stoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 8,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaeos
Ha, Stoo will be overcome with joy. That's the fourth mention of Ankara hunted down!

[Edit: originally typed 'third mention', of course it's the fourth mention within "Indiana Jones" films/episodes]
It's actually the 5th if we count the VHS box for "Temple of Doom"!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darwin Jones
Look at the license plate: "Ankara H-472"
Very interesting, Darwin. This tells us that Sallah's brother-in-law must have lived in the Province of Ankara (and perhaps even within the city, itself).
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamBoyd8
Ankara used to be named Angora and that is where Angora wool came from.
The influx of fun facts just keeps on coming!
Stoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 11:17 AM   #16
Archaeos
IndyFan
 
Archaeos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Not The British Museum
Posts: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamBoyd8
Ankara used to be named Angora and that is where Angora wool came from.

Angora was a small Turkish town when the capital was moved there in 1923.


I did not know that !

Plundering Wikipedia to quickly learn about this, I found that it seems that next to
- Angora goats and their prized wool: mohair,
- Angora rabbits and their prized wool: angora-wool,
- there's also a unique breed of cat, Angora cat: ...nothing made from that animal, for once...

I just found it funny that Angora cats would make a full topical circle to your thread about Istanbul cats...
Archaeos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:25 AM.