Indy Body Count

No Ticket

New member
Indy is no murderer. Come on. If a giant dude with a big sword wants to try and kill you and you don't feel like dealing with it, because... I don't know, maybe you've got diarrhea or something... just shoot him.

Nazis were all bad guys out to get Dr. Jones, etc. Indy wouldn't kill someone unless he knew they'd try to kill him. It's all self defense. Afterall, Germany did declare war on the Jones'.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Blue Jay said:
doesn't the body count in general refer only to the people that died in the movie and not the people indy personally killed?

At least that is the way this austrian web site counts the dead:

http://www.dvd-forum.at/bodycounts.htm

[Jokingly]I don't know about you -- but I get uneasy whenever any German speaking people start counting bodies for any reason. That's the sort of thing that got IBM into trouble once upon a time.

Seriously, I admit I was vague in my initial post. I thought the topic of how many people Indy had killed in each film had been discussed in the past -- and (when I couldn't find any threads) I half thought when I started this one that VP would hook me up with a link.

Pale Horse said:
We could get a better idea if we define what we mean by Indy Body count.

In any event Palehorse is correct, I need a definition. To me, Indy Body count is each person who dies in a film due to Indy's concious action or inaction. Indy's intent -- whether malice, self-defense or what-not is irrelevant.

For example, I agree with roundshort 100% on the German mechanic. If Indy had a gun, he would have shot the German mechanic. If you watch the fight scene there is a definite pause when Indy realizes that the prop is closing in and then he duck and covers. The mechanic's death -- whether by Indy' shooting him or by Indy failing to warn -- was a concious choice.

If we go through the exercise, I suspect the actual body count is lower than we would suspect -- and again, I will be very curious how the Indy IV body count will stack up.

[As an aside, I really don't want this thread to get bogged down ethical fine points. Maybe I'll start an "Ethical Indy -- Murder" thread. Which may be followed by others, like "Ethical Indy -- Theft and Conversion" or "Ethical Indy -- Teaching".]
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Can't recall all the lackeys that have met their demise in the trilogy, so I'm just going for the characters that can be distinguished...

Raiders

Satipo - Doesn't count. He walked into a trap he knew was there by his own stupidity.

Barranca - Doesn't count. Hovito frag.

Giant sherpa - Counts. As do practically everyone biting it in the bar fight.

Swordsman - Counts. No-brainer.

Mechanic - Counts. Even though his death can be listed as circumstancial, Indy's actions tell us he wanted him dead.

Sergeant - Counts. Indy threw him out of the truck, not very concerned about his well-being.

Gobler - Counts. He drove off a cliff, but I count everyone dying during the truck chase biting it more or less due to Indy's involvement.

Belloq, Dietrich and Toht - Don't count. They messed with the ark by their own will. Indy just happened to be there.


ToD

Thuggee assassin - Counts. Whip in the fan was far from circumstancial.

Giant Thuggee - Counts. He got caught in crusher so it's circumstancial, but he wouldn't have ended that way without Indy's involvement.

Mola Ram - Counts. Interestingly enough, only main villain in the trilogy that does.


LC

Panama Hat - Counts. I can't say for sure if the ship would have blown up even without Indy's involvement, but I figure he had something to do with it.

Vogel - Counts. Again slightly circumstancial, but Indy clearly involved.

Donovan - Doesn't count. Elsa's frag, technically.

Elsa - Doesn't count. He tried to save her, not kill her.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Finn said:
Mola Ram - Counts. Interestingly enough, only main villain in the trilogy that does.

Interesting. Never made that distinction.

[Thanks for the move. It hit me after I started the thread that it was in the wrong place.]
 

Kingsley

Member
In my mind all 3 movies have a similar number of deaths if I think only in those caused directly by Indy.

In Indy 4 I expect Blanchett's character dying too... but hardly by Indys hands.
Maybe she could be added to Marion's count. I could see that happen :dead:
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Finn said:
Mechanic - Counts. Even though his death can be listed as circumstancial, Indy's actions tell us he wanted him dead.

I want Osama bin Laden dead, and if he dies tomorrow that doesn't mean I'm responsible. Indy wanting him dead doesn't mean he killed him.

Finn said:
Thuggee assassin - Counts. Whip in the fan was far from circumstancial.

Its a common misconception that Indy throws the whip into the fan. The Thuggee hits it and knocks it from Indy's grip and into the fan.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
oki9Sedo said:
I want Osama bin Laden dead, and if he dies tomorrow that doesn't mean I'm responsible. Indy wanting him dead doesn't mean he killed him.

Its a common misconception that Indy throws the whip into the fan. The Thuggee hits it and knocks it from Indy's grip and into the fan.
I think I mentioned the circumstanciality there, I didn't state he killed them square, so there's no need to get smarmy. Waste of a good post.

If the bad guy kicks the bucket during a fight against Indy, be it circumstancial or direct involvement, I think it counts. Feel free to disagree, unless your reason is just because you want to.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Finn said:
Can't recall all the lackeys that have met their demise in the trilogy, so I'm just going for the characters that can be distinguished...

Raiders...ToD...LC....

We gotta get the lackeys in there. And Finn shouldn't have to do it, any volunteers?
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Finn said:
If the bad guy kicks the bucket during a fight against Indy, be it circumstancial or direct involvement, I think it counts. Feel free to disagree, unless your reason is just because you want to.

Hopefully the idea of disagreeing and arguing simply because one wants to left with ClintonHammond.

I just think that in order for a death to count as a kill for Indy, there has to have been a deliberate, direct action that lead to the death by Indy (eg. shooting, stabbing, throwing off a cliff etc). That wasn't the case in the mechanic's death, he stood in the path of the propellor by chance, not by any deliberate action of Indy's. Also, Indy not warning him doesn't count as killing him, he's not obliged to do anything.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
oki9Sedo said:
Hopefully the idea of disagreeing and arguing simply because one wants to left with ClintonHammond.

I just think that in order for a death to count as a kill for Indy, there has to have been a deliberate, direct action that lead to the death by Indy (eg. shooting, stabbing, throwing off a cliff etc). That wasn't the case in the mechanic's death, he stood in the path of the propellor by chance, not by any deliberate action of Indy's. Also, Indy not warning him doesn't count as killing him, he's not obliged to do anything.

To the first paragraph: that was low.

To the second: I think many would argue that it's an obligation to warn him, since the opportunity is clearly there. With that said, I'm not certain I want to count sins of omission here. It's odd - I think including the lead Thuggee guard makes sense, as Indy clearly takes advantage of his being crushed to escape himself, just as he here takes advantage of the mechanic being chopped into bits to survive. (I'm particularly reluctant about counting Vogel as a kill for Indy, since neither of them knew they were heading towards the cliff, which nearly took out them both, but that doesn't really reflect on the mechanic situation.) I do want to disagree with Finn on the broader statement that if one dies during a fight with Indy, it thereby counts as a kill, but in the Mechanic's case...Joe's right, and there's a clear moment in which he contemplates, or at least has the opportunity to contemplate, making the propeller known. Indy doesn't fight fair, we know that, it's fine...but let's not say that it doesn't mean he's culpable.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Attila the Professor said:
To the second: I think many would argue that it's an obligation to warn him, since the opportunity is clearly there. With that said, I'm not certain I want to count sins of omission here. It's odd - I think including the lead Thuggee guard makes sense, as Indy clearly takes advantage of his being crushed to escape himself, just as he here takes advantage of the mechanic being chopped into bits to survive. (I'm particularly reluctant about counting Vogel as a kill for Indy, since neither of them knew they were heading towards the cliff, which nearly took out them both, but that doesn't really reflect on the mechanic situation.) I do want to disagree with Finn on the broader statement that if one dies during a fight with Indy, it thereby counts as a kill, but in the Mechanic's case...Joe's right, and there's a clear moment in which he contemplates, or at least has the opportunity to contemplate, making the propeller known. Indy doesn't fight fair, we know that, it's fine...but let's not say that it doesn't mean he's culpable.
I actually hesitated on few occasions in whether category to put them, mainly Vogel and Panama Hat, but couldn't find good enough arguments for Indy NOT being the lead element on the string of gimmicks that led to their untimely demise, so I went along with my earlier logic and decided they're scratches.

I mean, in all the cases Indy clearly fought for his life. Perhaps he knew he had no chance to win just by kicking the living excrement out of his far superior opponent, but still kept on prolonging the struggle, possibly just waiting for that lucky break to come along. We can probably argue to death if they're counting or not and with equally valid reasons for and against. So as I said already, this is the way yours truly sees this matter and he has no intentions to force his opinion upon others, shall they decide to disagree with him.
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Attila the Professor said:
To the first paragraph: that was low.

No it wasn't, he was a pain in the hole.

Attila the Professor said:
It's odd - I think including the lead Thuggee guard makes sense, as Indy clearly takes advantage of his being crushed to escape himself, just as he here takes advantage of the mechanic being chopped into bits to survive.

Well taking advantage of somebody's death isn't the same as causing their death.

Attila the Professor said:
in the Mechanic's case...Joe's right, and there's a clear moment in which he contemplates, or at least has the opportunity to contemplate, making the propeller known.

But choosing not to make the propellor known to the mechanic doesn't count as killing him. Killing somebody is by definition an active process, not passive.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
oki9Sedo said:
No it wasn't, he was a pain in the hole.



Well taking advantage of somebody's death isn't the same as causing their death.



But choosing not to make the propellor known to the mechanic doesn't count as killing him. Killing somebody is by definition an active process, not passive.

1) If you let him pain you that much, that's your perogative.

2) True enough, but he was right there, he gave him the rope, he was fighting with him the entire time.

3) You can't just say "by definition"; that strikes me as a pretty weak argument. If you're running headlong towards a cliff that you don't know is there, but I do, and I see you and fail to tell you, I'm responsible. This isn't about humanitarian action, it's that saying one thing or not saying it makes a difference between a man being alike and a man being dead. If it makes you happy, I won't say that he killed him, but I'll still say that he's culpable for the death.
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Attila the Professor said:
If you let him pain you that much, that's your perogative.

Its tough NOT to be irritated by someone so rude and cynical.

Attila the Professor said:
If you're running headlong towards a cliff that you don't know is there, but I do, and I see you and fail to tell you, I'm responsible.

You've hit where we differ right on the head: I don't think you are.

Even the legal system would see it that way: you wouldn't be prosecuted for failing to act.

If it makes you happy, I won't say that he killed him, but I'll still say that he's culpable for the death.

Makes me happy? You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, the fact that it differs from mine doesn't bother me in the slightest. This wasn't an argument, it was a discussion.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
oki9Sedo said:
You've hit where we differ right on the head: I don't think you are.

Even the legal system would see it that way: you wouldn't be prosecuted for failing to act.

I'm not going to rely on the law for answers to ethical questions, but there are places with Good Samaritan laws.

Really, it's a cultural thing. I'm from a Catholic background, so of course I see guilt as relevant...
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
I don't think Indy's body in Raiders goes much beyond 10.

Two in The Raven

The Cairo Sword Dude

Cairo explosive truck - 2 (the driver and the armed guy)

The German Mechanic

Three in Gobler's vehicle

Tough Sergeant
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Joe Brody said:
I don't think Indy's body in Raiders goes much beyond 10.

Two in The Raven

The Cairo Sword Dude

Cairo explosive truck - 2 (the driver and the armed guy)

The German Mechanic

Three in Gobler's vehicle

Tough Sergeant

He might have killed some of the soldiers hanging onto the truck.
 
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