Is any Indy film hard for you to watch for religious reasons?

Stoo

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
As for Nazis, the term Nazi is overworked with regards to the 1930s and 1940s. Today it is politically correct to refer to 'Nazi Germany', so as not to offend modern Germany. However, most occupants of 'Nazi Germany' were not Nazis. Until June 1944 no German soldier (Wehrmacht) was permitted to join the Nazi Party. This was a concession Hitler allowed the Generals, who remained strong enough to defy the Fuehrer. The bomb plot of June 1944 (which almost succeeded in killing Hitler) changed all that. Hitler was furious and his distrust of his generals became complete.
Montana Smith said:
On that basis, the Germans who Indiana kills in ROTLA were not technically Nazis (though they may have been sympathisers). In Campbell Black's novelization Wehrmacht Dietrich cannot stand Nazi Toht. Nevertheless, the intention of Dietrich is to bring the Ark to Hitler. This is as good a reason as any (at least in hindsight) for Indiana to get a little rough.
Been meaning to mention this for awhile now, so it's good that you brought it up, Montana! So many people who post here at The Raven talk about Indy "beatin' on the Nazis" without knowing what they're talking about...:rolleyes:
Montana Smith said:
Oh, and there's another interesting thread on The Raven discussing whether or not Pat Roach's bald German was actually a Feld Gendarrme (military policeman), rather than a mechanic. That might alter how you view the fight under the flying wing. Based on first hand accounts most German soldiers typically disliked their military police.
Yeah...my observation of Pat Roach's orange piping in Kooshmeister's thread!(y) The other officer with Gobler

Aside from all that, the whole point of this thread is silly. If a person's religious beliefs prevent them from enjoying the films, why would they even be on an Indiana Jones message board?:confused:
 

Jack Nelligan

New member
Montana Smith said:
The Old Testament God and the New Testament God are quite distinct characters. Brimstone and fire vs a little more forgiveness. The God in Raiders was the violent, vengeful character that created a flood to destroy his toys-gone-bad (even though he was omnipotent and knew that man was going to choose the wrong path - that just smacks of sadism, and was the first realization that turned me from religion. As a young child I had a big illustrated Bible. A double page spread depicting the flood with drowning animals really sickened me. From that moment on I began to question). It also reminds me of Milton's 'Paradise Lost' where Lucifer (the Light-Bringer or Promethean version of Satan) is the democrat who holds counsel, whilst God is the authoritarian ruler.

Religions all over the world seem have similarities. You might trace them back to early superstions (such as agricultural sun-worship), but given time those in power began to use those superstious beliefs to their own advantage. In times where the common peasant was little better off than a slave, what better way to prevent them from committing suicide (and depriving your workforce) than instilling the fear of eternal hell into them? Hasan i Sabah, the Old Man of the Mountain, reversed that idea: you can go to heaven precisely by committing suicide. The Old Man's assassins were convinced to carry out acts of assassination from which they had no hope of escaping with their lives. Their reward was a place in heaven. Sadly there are still people who believe this, but now they employ bombs instead of daggers.

Religion is an interesting subject to explore, as Lucas and Spielberg have demonstrated. The trouble is that countless people have suffered through the course of history because of the way in which it has been conjured up and misued. As Indy says, archaeology is interested in 'facts', if you want 'truth' take a philosophy class. That is in fact one of the first things I was taught at degree level history. There is no truth, only possibilities. History is the culmination of the viewpoints of its participants, and people often make poor or biased witnesses.

Therefore, the safest thing the US Government could do with the Ark was box it up and hide it amongst thousands of other similar boxes - and forget about it. You can't destroy it, you don't want your enemies to use it, so just forget about it.

Matt


God bless you...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
Been meaning to mention this for awhile now, so it's good that you brought it up, Montana! So many people who post here at The Raven talk about Indy "beatin' on the Nazis" without knowing what they're talking about...:rolleyes:

Thanks, Stoo. It's something the media does all the time: distorting history and spouting cliches!

Stoo said:
Yeah...my observation of Pat Roach's orange piping in Kooshmeister's thread!(y) The other officer with Gobler


I liked those photo-montages you did of the uniforms of Dietrich, Gobler and 'Belzig'. It'd be cool to see a whole collection of them for the German characters of IJ.:hat:

Stoo said:
Aside from all that, the whole point of this thread is silly. If a person's religious beliefs prevent them from enjoying the films, why would they even be on an Indiana Jones message board?:confused:

Yeah, but sometimes a film is so good that some people have to adjust their views to accept it - sort of like a guilty pleasure. And this thread has been kinda fun, and surprisingly very peaceful, considering some of the bad-tempered threads I've read on the Raven! :)

Matt
 

Jack Nelligan

New member
Pellman wrote:

5. You say "From Indy's point of view the ark is merely a grand prize. No
> one is harmed by it being in the German's possession. There is nothing
> heroic about retrieving it from them." It's not entirely clear to me that
> this is true. Certainly Indy has "been to Sunday school." He glibly
> brushes off Marcus's cautions as "a lot of superstitious hocus-pocus" --
> perhaps too glibly. And when the time comes, he knows enough to tell
> Marion to close her eyes, not to look. It may be that on some level at
> least Indy has not entirely discounted the possibility that if the Nazis
> possess the ark it could be disastrous for the world.
>

I believe that Indy did understand the power of the Ark and greater picture of what its powers
Could do in the hands of evil. Not only evil, but evil with ambitions to rule the world. Indy, being a smart
And well educated man, would understand, better than most in the U.S. at that time, what Hitler could
do if he had the power of the Ark on his side. I think he was after the Ark as a prize of Archeology, and
taking it from the ?Nazis? just made the prize a little sweater!

Also, back on topic, these movies are FICTION and have nothing to do with real Religion or Faith!!!!!!
 

sgttom

New member
Why? (Plus, not to nit-pick but it was 4 movies... a trilogy is 3). I think having something from a variety of religion makes it easier for everyone to enjoy Indy, it dosen't disprove anything!

It disapproves everything to a certain degree that's why it doesn't make much sense.

I believe the bible is literal and not a fairy tail. I believe in a Supreme Being, there isn't much else to believe in, in my opinion. I cannot defend every aspect of my beliefs because I am no where near that knowledgeable. But the parts of my religion that have been explained to me so far make sense.

To say that humans made God is partly true. Many races of men made God's out of the Moon, Stars, and Sun. They didn't make the Sun they just made up what they thought the Sun to be.

Going to the Bible, which I trust in, God informed the first beings of his existence. The truth wasn't fulfilled until Jesus came.

Like everyone said, Indiana Jones is fiction. Indiana Jones is just a made up Super Man Character. I am sure Lucas put some of his Religious and Political thoughts into the film but It is still Fiction.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Jack Nelligan said:
Also, back on topic, these movies are FICTION

So's the Bible. Both were constructed by numerous authors. Indiana Jones has flying wings and rocket launchers before their time. The Bible has gods, angels and people coming back from the dead. Both are smattered with historical references. Just like Indiana Jones movies the Bible also has plot holes and pieces that some people dislike. It just happens that Lucas and Spielberg have editing rights over their creations, whilst each individual religion has claimed editing rights over the Bible through its history. Hence th
e variation in religions and beliefs based upon it.
 

Col. Detritch

New member
Stoo said:
Been meaning to mention this for awhile now, so it's good that you brought it up, Montana! So many people who post here at The Raven talk about Indy "beatin' on the Nazis" without knowing what they're talking about...:rolleyes:
Yeah...my observation of Pat Roach's orange piping in Kooshmeister's thread!(y) The other officer with Gobler

Aside from all that, the whole point of this thread is silly. If a person's religious beliefs prevent them from enjoying the films, why would they even be on an Indiana Jones message board?:confused:

Thank You Stoo! My thoghts exactly. If it effected you so badly why do you still like it enough to post on this board! Though some interesting arguments have cme up.:hat:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Col. Detritch said:
Thank You Stoo! My thoghts exactly. If it effected you so badly why do you still like it enough to post on this board! Though some interesting arguments have cme up.:hat:

Don't really want to drag this one out any more - though it was interesting to read differing viewpoints - but, to be fair to blueoakleyz (the one who lit the blue touchpaper and thereafter stood well back ;) ), he did ask "Is ANY Indy film hard for you to watch for religious reasons?" Somebody might only find one disturbing, whilst enjoy the others...

Yet there's so much to enjoy in the films that I think that anyone interested enough to post here wouldn't find it too hard to watch any of them. After all, as many have already said, they are fiction. Now I have to get back to customizing my 1/18 motorcycle and sidecar... :hat:

Matt
 

arkfinder

New member
Since people are giving their reasons I'll give mine.

I do not believe in "The big bang" in now way did 2 rocks hit togather and we got this huge galaxy.

I do not believe in evolution. If it were so where are the in between bones? Like when the fish crawled out of the water. And why are their still monkeys & apes?

I choose to put all my Faith in Jesus.

But, back on focus. This is an Indian Jones site and I'm glad it is.
 

Hans

New member
Indy dosen't hurt anyone i think religously. I really don't care much for god and that stuff.:cool:

?I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny.?-han solo
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Hans said:
“I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field controls my destiny.”-han solo

Cool quote, Hans. Religion in Star Wars seems to be much more pantheistic (god exists in every object and subject in the universe), rather than monotheistic (one god controlling everything). Jedi and Sith make use of the power that exists in all things. There's some sort of balancing act going on, nudging the power back and forth, influencing destiny. It's the sort of religion that leaves things open for change by any sentient creature.

A universe under the control of a single god feels very limited - that sentient creatures are merely pawns in a game that ultimately they have no choice in deciding the outcome of.

If you have to have a religion (and I don't) I would rather it was the former kind rather than the latter.

In Indiana Jones neither the discovery of the Ark nor the Grail affect the destiny of anyone beyond those that were there to witness their power. The US Govenrment was able to 'put a lid on' the Ark. The Grail couldn't be taken beyond the boundary of its resting place. Essentially, these artifacts do not change the balance of the universe. History moves on - there is war between 1939-1945, which we know from KOTSC, and there follows the Cold War. It's as though the discovery of these two iconic objects has changed nothing critically in the greater Indiana Jones universe. For me that's a positive result.

The later scenes of KOTSC confirm this (the inter-dimensional beings waiting patiently with their treasure house of artifacts from across human history). It seems quite clear that in the Indiana Jones universe it is these creatures that constitute the source of religious belief - at least they are the closest thing to a god that we ever see. For me it would be reassuring to know that the gods were merely another form of natural life, albeit possessing abilities we would term 'supernatural'. But then, everything is supernatural until science has explained how 'nature' makes it function.

To me, a vinyl record looks like a supernatual object. How do you get words and music out of a single groove? It's no wonder, then, that early man saw the supernatural in so many things we take for granted today.

Matt
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Indiana Jones movie plots are not dissertations on religious issues. The religious stuff supports the adventuring that we love to watch. The god that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship is the god of the Old Testament (the same god) and that god is a literary figure.
 

Sharkey

Guest
Someone else wrote that the religious stuff made them more curious about their religion.Same with me.I know I've gone back and looked through for more info.One thing that's always puzzled me is the idea that it's a radio.If its meant figuratively I get it, they can summon the power of God. It was a comment that ended up defining Belloq's character a bit more.

What's with all the Star Wars on The Raven?
 

sgttom

New member
Han starts believing later on though. :D
God manifests himself in all things. From the words of God" I am". God is everything. He made everything, and controls everything. He occupies no space just like our thoughts occupy no space. He lives outside of time therefore he never ages. When your body dies you'll be left with your soul and then whether you avoided God on earth or not He'll be right in your face and will then be unavoidable. I just hope everyone is prepared when that happens to them.
How does an Atheist explain an exorcism?

Well I guess I am off topic. I don't really find the religious aspects of Indy offensive because its is just an Action Adventure Fiction movie.
 

Walton

New member
I never had a problem with any of the films concerning religious reasons.

emtiem said:
In fact I suppose they're probably only offensive to Christians because they imply that other non-Christian gods co-exist with the Christian one; and some more hardcore Christians probably don't like the idea of aliens existing!

Again, nope on 2 counts.

1. The Bible acknowledges other gods exist (at least in as much as it acknowledges various people groups worship other gods...in Judges 6:10, God says, "I said to you, 'I am the LORD your God; do not worship the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you live.' But you have not listened to me.").

2. In Christianity, God is Creator. Aliens/IDBs, if they exist, fit as part of the universe God created. Not a problem.
 

Walton

New member
Mickiana said:
I'm not religious, but I really enjoy watching Indiana Jones movies. The movies are not serious treatments of religious subjects. Being made for entertainment, the religious stuff is presented fantastically and shouldn't offend or reinforce anyone's sensibilities, whether they are religious or not.

What does that mean? You're not religious? If you have a unified worldview, then you are religious. The word "religion" comes from the Latin for "ligament." A joining together of two or more things.

Atheists have a "religion" that stems from their core claim that God does not exist. Buddhists view the world in a unified way per their attempts to purge themselves of evil from one life to the next, the idea being not to be reincarnated and have to do it all over again. Christians likewise have a unified view that the world and all people in it belong to one God, and that though we stray from Him, He has made it possible for us to know Him and even befriend Him because Christ (from whom the term "Christian" comes) has redeemed mankind back to God.

You may not be a follower of any particular historical religion, but you're as religious as the next because you behave according to your beliefs.
 

Indy's brother

New member
Walton said:
What does that mean? You're not religious? If you have a unified worldview, then you are religious. The word "religion" comes from the Latin for "ligament." A joining together of two or more things.

By that logic, if I can combine more than one item together and turn it into a meal, that would also make me religious.

Walton said:
You may not be a follower of any particular historical religion, but you're as religious as the next because you behave according to your beliefs.

...and that is your belief.

I'm sorry Walton, but this kind of smacks of desperation. To argue that a person can be considered religious just because they acknowledge that religion exists is.....too big a stretch for me. That's like saying "I acknowledge that National Socialism exists, therefore I am a Nazi myself." or "I readily admit that the world believes that the movie Avatar is a masterpiece, so my admission of this means that this is also what I believe."

Perhaps what you are substituting "religion" or "religious" with the term "Belief System", but I'm not sure that you are.

On topic, I was introduced to Indy as a believer, and I have since lost religion. The films have not changed for me at all. ;)
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Indy's brother said:
By that logic, if I can combine more than one item together and turn it into a meal, that would also make me religious.

...and that is your belief.

I'm sorry Walton, but this kind of smacks of desperation. To argue that a person can be considered religious just because they acknowledge that religion exists is.....too big a stretch for me. That's like saying "I acknowledge that National Socialism exists, therefore I am a Nazi myself." or "I readily admit that the world loved the movie Avatar, so my admission of this means that this is also what I believe."

Perhaps what you are substituting "religion" or "religious" with the term "Belief System", but I'm not sure that you are.

I, too, am at a loss with some of Walton's arguments. I'm beginning to think that there is a bit of a crusade occurring. :confused:

Indy's brother said:
On topic, I was introduced to Indy as a believer, and I have since lost religion. The films have not changed for me at all. ;)

I never realized, Indy's brother. Welcome to the wilderness, brother! ;)
 
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