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View Poll Results: Is Indiana Jones a good role model for young kids?
Yes, he's a perfect role model. 18 46.15%
Not really but I don't mindmy kids watching the movies. 17 43.59%
NO WAY! He took advantage of teenage Marion amongst other things. 1 2.56%
I have NO idea... 3 7.69%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-01-2010, 06:44 AM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HJJNR
Not many movies or characters can carry across the generations quite like Indy movies (Superman perhaps) as my son is 7 and he adores Indy and no I havent force fed it to him, I was watching Raiders 2 years ago and he came through and started watching it and that was it, he was hooked. (obviously a 5 year old wouldnt want to see the scary Ark scene at the end so that was skipped). He has an awesome little collection of Indy memorabilia (even the gas mask bag ha ha). I even had to paint his bedroom into an Indy theme.

He's written his own Indy 5 idea and thinks it should open with young Indy listening to a story his Mother is telling him about a mythical jewel that gives the holder infinite life (yes he loves Harry Potter too lol).

Indiana Jones is timeless and any 5th or 6th episode should keep to that formula and then I think we'll all be happy.


Please don't take offense here HJJNR, but I think you are all wrong. And further, I think this is the major problem that has plagued Indiana Jones, and perhaps doomed him, from the beginning.

Indiana Jones is not a childrens' character. He is not even a juvenile character...........he is an adult character, with adult themes.

Why oh why have they tried to market him as a childrens' character? Who did that??? George? Steven? .......Who???

I think this has ruined what could have been...what could be.

Maybe it could still be, but not as long as 7 year olds determine his future.

Barney, The Teletubbies, and Indiana Jones..............???

Sorry HJJNR, I'm really not a bad person, and you are probably a very good person, and good parent, .....but you are killing me (and Indiana Jones). The kids have plenty of Heroes...........give them Harry Porter, three dozen or more Saturday Morning cartoon characters and puppets, and...whoever, but let Indiana Jones be who he was meant to be......a long long long time ago:

An Action Adventure Hero for a mature audience.

The fact that you couldn't let your child watch a scene from the Greatest Indy film of all time........should send a clear message.

The future of Indiana Jones depends on it.

No disrespect intended. I hope you can appreciate my opinions without being offended. If I have offended then I apologize.
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:02 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by monkey
Please don't take offense here HJJNR, but I think you are all wrong. And further, I think this is the major problem that has plagued Indiana Jones, and perhaps doomed him, from the beginning.

Indiana Jones is not a childrens' character. He is not even a juvenile character...........he is an adult character, with adult themes.

Why oh why have they tried to market him as a childrens' character? Who did that??? George? Steven? .......Who???

I think this has ruined what could have been...what could be.

Maybe it could still be, but not as long as 7 year olds determine his future.

Barney, The Teletubbies, and Indiana Jones..............???

Sorry HJJNR, I'm really not a bad person, and you are probably a very good person, and good parent, .....but you are killing me (and Indiana Jones). The kids have plenty of Heroes...........give them Harry Porter, three dozen or more Saturday Morning cartoon characters and puppets, and...whoever, but let Indiana Jones be who he was meant to be......a long long long time ago:

An Action Adventure Hero for a mature audience.

The fact that you couldn't let your child watch a scene from the Greatest Indy film of all time........should send a clear message.

The future of Indiana Jones depends on it.

No disrespect intended. I hope you can appreciate my opinions without being offended. If I have offended then I apologize.

I fully appreciate what your saying but I was 6 when I went to see Raiders at the cinema and I was hooked from there. Indy is a PERFECT hero for a young boy; brave, adventurous, intelligent and so on. I can remember jumping across ditches and digging in the dirt looking for relics lol humming the theme tune to myself. My son is now REALLY into history and learning more about history and if he is stuck on a puzzle he'll tell me if he thinks like Indy he'll solve it. Too many kids these days are playstation oriented and dont know what fresh air is. the main reason I think its a good character for kids to look up to is because Indy is human, no magic wand or superpowers red cape and what do kids learn from watching stuffed animals? Not a lot.

I wont say I think your wrong coz its your opinion but I have to say that Indy is a great hero for young kids to have if it gets them off the playstation and into the fresh air and stimulating their imagination.

Last edited by HJJNR : 03-01-2010 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:07 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey
The fact that you couldn't let your child watch a scene from the Greatest Indy film of all time........should send a clear message.

There are parts of Harry Potter that can be disturbing for (then) 5 year olds, I thought (as a parent) that watching exploding and melting heads would be a bit much. He watches it now and because he's a bit older, I have explained how the movie effects work etc.

I'm curious to know how old most of us here were when we first saw Indy.
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:17 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by monkey
Please don't take offense here HJJNR, but I think you are all wrong. And further, I think this is the major problem that has plagued Indiana Jones, and perhaps doomed him, from the beginning.

Indiana Jones is not a childrens' character. He is not even a juvenile character...........he is an adult character, with adult themes.

No he isn't; he's a family hero and that's why kids love him. Yeah there's some scary stuff in there, but all kids like that. If you think it's an issue that's plagued him from the beginning, isn't it more likely that it's you who've misunderstood what he is? He's never been an adult hero.
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:40 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by emtiem
No he isn't; he's a family hero...

He's never been an adult hero.
You are so wrong. Indiana Jones was never a family hero.Not even now. He raped an underage girl and later he got her pregnant and left her at the altar.

He sleeps with his students and in his later years gets married because everything else in his life is being "taken away"...selfish and hardly a family hero.

Hasn't this been pointed out time and time again?
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkey
You are so wrong. Indiana Jones was never a family hero.Not even now. He raped an underage girl and later he got her pregnant and left her at the altar.

That's a pretty gross mischaracterization of his relationship with Marion (and if it weren't, then really, what would make him any kind of hero, even an adult one?).
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkey
You are so wrong. Indiana Jones was never a family hero.Not even now. He raped an underage girl and later he got her pregnant and left her at the altar.

He sleeps with his students and in his later years gets married because everything else in his life is being "taken away"...selfish and hardly a family hero.

Hasn't this been pointed out time and time again?

"Raped an underage girl"? I've never seen that version of the movie... Indiana Jones is about as dark and dangerous as Han Solo i.e. not at all. He's a likeable rogue who is capable of giving as good as he gets, but even then, it's well within the boundaries of what most rationale people would call 'family entertainment'.
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:13 PM   #8
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How would you describe a 42 or 25 year old man having sex with an 11,12 or 15 year old?

Nothing screams family entertainment like - I was a child, I was in love it was wrong and you knew it!

Yeah, family hero, if you're the Manson Family.

Can't wait to catch up with you and yours...don't forget to bring your sweet little daughter to the church drinking contest. I bet she doesn't wet herself THIS time!

Never seen that version...please.
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkey
How would you describe a 42 or 25 year old man having sex with an 11,12 or 15 year old?

Nothing screams family entertainment like - I was a child, I was in love it was wrong and you knew it!

Yeah, family hero, if you're the Manson Family.

Can't wait to catch up with you and yours...don't forget to bring your sweet little daughter to the church drinking contest. I bet she doesn't wet herself THIS time!

Never seen that version...please.

Indy never raped Marion. In the story he was 25 and she was 15, and Marion was angry because he left her (that is, he did the right thing for her). He walked out on her. (The reverse occurs in A.C. Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy - a girl walks out on Han, and when she returns 10 years later he's the one getting angry). Indy isn't your typical hero, but he was intended for a family audience. The creators pushed the boundaries as far as they could with violence and horror (adding big doses of comedy and black comedy), and when they did TOD they just so happened to push the boundary too far (thereby helping to create the PG-13 rating).
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Old 03-02-2010, 02:22 AM   #10
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Thanks for all your moralising, Sharkey. It is truly tedious. The character of Indiana Jones is neither a rapist or a "family hero". WTF is a "family hero" anyway?!!!
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
Thanks for all your moralising, Sharkey. It is truly tedious. The character of Indiana Jones is neither a rapist or a "family hero". WTF is a "family hero" anyway?!!!

"Family hero" sounds like a definition of Seth MacFarlane's American Dad! It makes Indy sound cheesy, which, at heart, he never has been. He's two-fisted, incredibly ambitious, self-centred, yet with a strong moral code which becomes apparent. He might be a "family anti-hero", though!
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:38 AM   #12
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"Dark" Indy, or "Family" Indy?

I think the big question here is: Do you want the "Family" Indy?.........or the "Dark" Indy?

And secondary to that question is: Which one is the REAL Indiana Jones?

I think the real Indiana Jones is the Dark Indy. Why? Because he is by far more interesting.

There are more than enough Super Good, Super Heroes, who, when they smile, there is a flash of light and corresponding "DING" flashing off of their front teeth.

Jones DID sleep with an underage girl. Jones DID rob graves to steal antiquities to sell for $$$. Sure he is 'Good', but he is also 'Bad', and that is what makes him interesting.

HJJNR, you did say something that was very important. You talked about how imitating Indiana Jones inspired your son to jump over ditches and dig in the earth for 'treasures'................reminds me of my own youth. I think that is very important, and I understand better what you mean about your son's interest in Indiana Jones. That is a good thing.

(By the way, you are obviously a very good Dad; something the world needs more of.)

I just don't want to see Indiana Jones lumped in together with Superman, Captain America, or even the Teletubbies....Barney, or any other puppet or Davey and Goliath claymation figure.

Jones drinks, Jones steals (when he needs to), Jones likes women (and even young girls), he is human, he is interesting.

I hope that Indy V can be perhaps a new beginning to the character; one that will maybe represent more truly who he is.
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:04 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by monkey
Jones DID sleep with an underage girl. Jones DID rob graves to steal antiquities to sell for $$$. Sure he is 'Good', but he is also 'Bad', and that is what makes him interesting.

I just did a quick Google search for the age of consent in 1930s America, and found this page:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230

Quote:
In the 1930s, support for setting the age of consent at 16 years or older began to weaken. Characterized by growing economic, social, and cultural independence, girls in their teens assumed a place in western societies quite distinct from that of younger children. New concepts of adolescence and specifically of girlhood normalized sexual activity during the teenage years, at least within peer groups, as "sex play" necessary to achieve adult heterosexuality. Emboldened and influenced by such ideas, girls more often talked of being "in love" with the men charged with having sex with them, and expressed sexual desire. Prosecutors and juries increasingly refused to treat such cases as rape.

Legislators, however, did not reduce the legal age of consent. The resulting tension was reflected in slang, most notably the American term "jailbait," dating from the 1930s, that registered cultural recognition of teenage girls as sexually attractive, even sexually active, but legally unavailable. American legislators did amend laws to take account of the offender's age during the 1940s and 1950s as teen culture expanded and female adolescents exercised their sexual autonomy.
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Old 03-02-2010, 01:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkey
He raped an underage girl and later he got her pregnant and left her at the altar.

He sleeps with his students and in his later years gets married because everything else in his life is being "taken away"...selfish and hardly a family hero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkey
Yeah, family hero, if you're the Manson Family.

As much as I would rather stay out of this, as it is veering off topic, I've been scratching my head over your comments since you posted them. If this is your true opinion of Indy, why are you a fan? Your take on his character paints him out to be little more than an unlikable lech.

While I agree that in a purely legal (statutory) sense of the word in our modern age, the term "rape" could be applied, the context that you set it in makes him undeniably a monster.
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Old 03-02-2010, 01:51 PM   #15
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Indy Is Indy a "Family hero" and a good role model for kids?

I recently had a debate as to whether or not Indy is a good role model for kids or not as my 7 year old son adores Indy and anything Indy related and I said it was a good thing however, some of you think he's a bad role model for young kids an some say he's strictly an adult orientated character.

What do you think?
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Old 03-02-2010, 02:00 PM   #16
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Sorry I took it a bit "off topic" there so...

Since this subject seems to be a healthy debate I have started a new thread to discuss the 'pro's and con's about Indy being a good role model or not. So if there are any mods reading and you want to move the off topic stuff to here: http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=19966 it tidies this thread up a bit.

Sorry about the going off topic.

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Old 03-02-2010, 02:34 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Indy's brother
As much as I would rather stay out of this, as it is veering off topic, I've been scratching my head over your comments since you posted them. If this is your true opinion of Indy, why are you a fan? Your take on his character paints him out to be little more than an unlikable lech.

While I agree that in a purely legal (statutory) sense of the word in our modern age, the term "rape" could be applied, the context that you set it in makes him undeniably a monster.
An appropriate and diametric response to wacked out unequivocal, extreemist and absolute view of a dynamic character. I appreciate your approach to the mayhem.

I've seen many posts already about this subject and it bogles the mind that people so easily turn the blind eye and simply write off themes and content that establishes Indy squarely as NOT family friendly...my hyperbole not withstanding!
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Old 03-02-2010, 02:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy's brother
As much as I would rather stay out of this, as it is veering off topic, I've been scratching my head over your comments since you posted them. If this is your true opinion of Indy, why are you a fan? Your take on his character paints him out to be little more than an unlikable lech.

While I agree that in a purely legal (statutory) sense of the word in our modern age, the term "rape" could be applied, the context that you set it in makes him undeniably a monster.

Just to note, (this is in no way a justification for any sexual relations that occur when one participant is below the age required to legally consent to the behavior, including Indy) that it was not until the 1920s that states within the United States actually started raising their "ages of consent", with most states settling on ages from 14 to 18.

Prior to 1889, the age of consent in California was age 10 then in 1889, they raised the age of consent to 14, in 1897 to 16 and in 1913 to age 18.
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Old 03-02-2010, 02:57 PM   #19
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Well, he's not that great of a role model, really. I mean, he does shoot an awful lot of people for starters. "Now, now Jimmy, you can't just shoot the Cairo Swordsman. Use your words. Now give each other a hug and make up."

My 7-year-old son adores Indy (just like his dad, and his mom for that matter), and we have no problem with that. If you're going to watch adventure movies, there really aren't many good role models. There are some better ones that can lead to good discussions, though. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is one of the best examples. Lord of the Rings. Solid Christian principles presented through allegory.

Indy mainly runs around shooting bad guys. Bit too much of a ladies man as well. At least by Crystal Skull he really settles down and recognizes the love of his life, rather than just getting the girl.

However, in spite of that stuff, he does have a lot of positive qualities. Generally trustworthy, honest, reliable, loyal -- all the stuff from the Boy Scout Law and then some. He's a man of principles, integrity, and honor. So there's a lot kids can learn from Indy. You just have to get around the shooting people part.
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:22 PM   #20
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Prior to 1889, the age of consent in California was age 10 then in 1889, they raised the age of consent to 14, in 1897 to 16 and in 1913 to age 18.

Huh?!!??

Well I guess it has something to do with what the life expectancy was back then. 30 years old was probably middle age.

If what you're saying is true...
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:09 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sartorius
Huh?!!??

Well I guess it has something to do with what the life expectancy was back then. 30 years old was probably middle age.

If what you're saying is true...

Just to add an additional element -

If you've seen the transcript of the original Raiders of the Lost Ark story conference among Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan there a segment that is quite uncomfortable reading due to the morality being discussed regarding statutory rape and promiscuity.

G = George Lucas, S = Steven Spielberg, L = Lawrence Kasdan.

G - We have to get them cemented into a very strong relationship. A bond.

L - I like it if they already had a relationship at one point. Because then you don't have to build it.

G — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.

L — And he was forty-two.

G — He hasn’t seen her in twelve years. Now she’s twenty-two. It’s a real strange relationship.

S — She had better be older than twenty-two.

G — He’s thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve. It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.

S — And promiscuous. She came onto him.

G — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it’s an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she’s sixteen or seventeen it’s not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he…

S — She has pictures of him.

G -There would be a picture on the mantle of her, her father and hi,. She was madly in love with him at the time and he left her because obviously it wouldn't work out. Now that she's 25 and she's been living in Napel since she was eighteen. It's not only that they like each other, it's a very bizarre thing. It gives you lots of stuff to play off of between them. Maybe she still likes him. It's something he'd rather forget and not have come up again. This give her a lot of ammunition to fight with.

S - In a way, she could say, "You've made me this hard"

G - This is a resource that you can either mine or not. It's not as blatanr as we're talking about. You odn't think about it that much. You don't immediatley realise how old she was at the time. It would be subtle, She could talk about it. "I was Jailbait the last time we were together. She can flaunt it at him, but at the same time she never says, "I was 15 years old." Even if we don't mention it, when we go to chas the part we're going to and up with a woman who's about 23 and a hero who's about 35.

The dialog of that scene in the film.

INDY: I never meant to hurt you.
MARION: I was a child! I was in love.
INDY: You knew what you were doing.
MARION: It was wrong. You knew it.
INDY: Look, I did what I did. I don’t expect you to be happy about it. But maybe we can do each other some good.
MARION: Why start now?
INDY: Shut up and listen for a second. I want that piece your father had. I’ve got money.
MARION: How much?

Last edited by JuniorJones : 03-02-2010 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:36 PM   #22
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I don't really find anything "uncomfortable" about the conversation quoted above.

It's impossible to tell from a written transcript, but I get a definitely jokey vibe from it, especially when Spielberg says "she came onto him."

Lucas initially says eleven, but then clarifies the age as being 15. I think they were all just spitballing ideas and had no real intention of actually making a twenty something sleep with an eleven year old.

Sure, fifteen and twenty five is definitely borderline, but for the 1920's, I'd say it's not quite entering criminal territory. And, yeah, the characters do at least quasi-acknowledge the inappropriateness of it in the actual film.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:14 PM   #23
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Indy

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Originally Posted by goodeknight
Well, he's not that great of a role model, really. I mean, he does shoot an awful lot of people for starters. "Now, now Jimmy, you can't just shoot the Cairo Swordsman. Use your words. Now give each other a hug and make up."

My 7-year-old son adores Indy (just like his dad, and his mom for that matter), and we have no problem with that. If you're going to watch adventure movies, there really aren't many good role models. There are some better ones that can lead to good discussions, though. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is one of the best examples. Lord of the Rings. Solid Christian principles presented through allegory.

Indy mainly runs around shooting bad guys. Bit too much of a ladies man as well. At least by Crystal Skull he really settles down and recognizes the love of his life, rather than just getting the girl.

However, in spite of that stuff, he does have a lot of positive qualities. Generally trustworthy, honest, reliable, loyal -- all the stuff from the Boy Scout Law and then some. He's a man of principles, integrity, and honor. So there's a lot kids can learn from Indy. You just have to get around the shooting people part.

Absolutely! I think every hero has his/ her flaws otherwise they wouldnt be "real". The shooting is pretty hard to justify but as for the swordsman, I tell my son he shot it near him and he fainted lol.
The principles and qualities of Jones are what I mean about role model material and as I mentioned in previous postings elsewhere, it gets my son out and about more, wanting to find treasure and bullwhip onto tree branches lol.

Hey if he wasn't a good hero for young kids why would they have this?
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
I don't really find anything "uncomfortable" about the conversation quoted above.

It's impossible to tell from a written transcript, but I get a definitely jokey vibe from it, especially when Spielberg says "she came onto him."

Lucas initially says eleven, but then clarifies the age as being 15. I think they were all just spitballing ideas and had no real intention of actually making a twenty something sleep with an eleven year old.


Sure, fifteen and twenty five is definitely borderline, but for the 1920's, I'd
say it's not quite entering criminal territory. And, yeah, the characters do
at least quasi-acknowledge the inappropriateness of it in the actual
film.





I was refering to indy's moralilty. I would find it a strange thing to joke about. I can't remember how many times people have laughed when I've told them
the joke of the 12 year old girl, who hit on her 25 and he took advantage of this.

Maybe it's a bit like an old Clint Eastwood movie where as he would find the screaming native who would attack him, spit on his face, fight him, he would throw her to the floor, take off his belt, she would scream, he would force
himself on her and within a few minutes she will be loving it. What a hero. He was raping her and she loved it. A heart warming message to all rapist who like to justify their actions.

Prehaps a pedophile will quote Indy actions as a justification.

How my sides are splitting.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Sharkey
How would you describe a 42 or 25 year old man having sex with an 11,12 or 15 year old?

Nothing screams family entertainment like - I was a child, I was in love it was wrong and you knew it!

Yeah, family hero, if you're the Manson Family.

Can't wait to catch up with you and yours...don't forget to bring your sweet little daughter to the church drinking contest. I bet she doesn't wet herself THIS time!

Never seen that version...please.
There is nothing in the movie, or script, that remotely suggests Indiana Jones had sex with Marion Ravenwood without her consent. Furthermore, it's an assumption to believe Marion was literally under age. Itís more probable that she was talking figuratively. Are you really suggesting that Lucas/Spielbergís intention was to portray Indy as nothing more than a pedophile? Is it not possible they simply wanted to portray him as a roguish charmer, who was capable of taking advantage of a naive young woman?
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