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Old 05-03-2018, 08:53 AM   #51
Raiders112390
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I really hate the word "problematic." As soon as someone says it, I know exactly where they stand on every issue. A worry of mine is that such individuals will impose on the rest of us a new Hays Code in film in the near future, one based upon forced inclusion, forced diversity, forced slapping down of men with the words "mansplaining" "Nazi" "racist" and "manspreading" thrown about very easily or where films are mandated to "teach the real version of history.

Disney's Star Wars is just a tiny step into the dystopian future that awaits us.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:48 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I really hate the word "problematic." As soon as someone says it, I know exactly where they stand on every issue. A worry of mine is that such individuals will impose on the rest of us a new Hays Code in film in the near future, one based upon forced inclusion, forced diversity, forced slapping down of men with the words "mansplaining" "Nazi" "racist" and "manspreading" thrown about very easily or where films are mandated to "teach the real version of history.

Disney's Star Wars is just a tiny step into the dystopian future that awaits us.

I'm in complete agreement. If I heard you say that in a bar, I'd buy you a drink to show my appreciation.
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:48 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Toht’s Arm
All art is political. Even when it's avowedly apolitical, that very act is political.
Nonsense, Toht. What is political about painting a landscape or composing a melody, etc.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
...everyone at that table with the exception of Captain Blumberg, Indy etc were posessed by an evil cult. I don't find it as such a portrayal of Indians as much as of members of an insane cult POSING as Indian royalty.
Blumberg? Isn’t his name, Captain Spielburtt? Anyway, those dinner guests aren’t “posing” as royalty because Thugs came from all walks of life, rich & poor. An evil rajah is still a rajah, no matter what he eats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I really hate the word "problematic." As soon as someone says it, I know exactly where they stand on every issue. A worry of mine is that such individuals will impose on the rest of us...
Wow. Hilarious. You are so completely far off-target in my case so thanks for the laugh! Hey, Lambonius, we are now both fully fledged Social Justice Warriors simply by using the word, “problematic”. Perhaps I should have said, “controversial”, because the dinner scene has never been a problem for me.

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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Disney's Star Wars is...
...garbage in the storytelling department. All 3 films, so far.

The biggest danger for Dr. Jones lies within Kathleen ‘The-Force-is-Female’ Kennedy. As the head of Lucasfilm, her attitude towards male “Star Wars” fans is deplorable so I have no confidence that she'll deliver Indy 5 untainted by her publically-stated agenda. Like I wrote in this same thread over a year ago, it's 100% guaranteed.

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Originally Posted by deepermagic
If I heard you say that in a bar, I'd buy you a drink to show my appreciation.
You ARE in a bar! It's called The Raven. Now, could ya pass the peanuts, please?

This conversation just made me realize that ”Skull" was the 1st Indy film to have an all-white cast.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:56 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Stoo
This conversation just made me realize that ”Skull" was the 1st Indy film to have an all-white cast.

Are you sure that wasn't just Kaminski's lighting? Hi-ohhhh!

Regarding the banquet scene in TOD, I remember watching a making-of documentary back in the day where Spielberg explicitly says that they were going for a comically over-the-top gross-out scene. The whole point was to play up the weirdness of Indian cuisine for laughs. I guess you could argue it's more about making fun of the Western perception of Indian cuisine as being radically "exotic," but the point stands. It wasn't an in-lore Thuggee cult decision, it was meta-gag aimed at the audience.
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Old 05-04-2018, 09:38 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambonius
Are you sure that wasn't just Kaminski's lighting? Hi-ohhhh!

Regarding the banquet scene in TOD, I remember watching a making-of documentary back in the day where Spielberg explicitly says that they were going for a comically over-the-top gross-out scene. The whole point was to play up the weirdness of Indian cuisine for laughs. I guess you could argue it's more about making fun of the Western perception of Indian cuisine as being radically "exotic," but the point stands. It wasn't an in-lore Thuggee cult decision, it was meta-gag aimed at the audience.

Some of the books ( I believe the Ultimate Guide) states Indy realized Hindus would not eat food like that. This made him think something wasn't right in Pankot palace.
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:53 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
Some of the books ( I believe the Ultimate Guide) states Indy realized Hindus would not eat food like that. This made him think something wasn't right in Pankot palace.

I believe that was also something in the original script that was cut. There may be a deleted scene of it somewhere but I remember reading that the script initially had Indy and Captain Blumburt discussing how something was wrong.
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:01 AM   #57
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63. EXT. THE PELASURE GARDEN - NIGHT 63.

Hundreds of lanters illuminate the garden where after dinner
drinks are served, cigars lighted and hookah pipes puffed on.

Indiana comes out of the pavilion into the garden with Capt.
Blumburtt and they talk quietly.

CAPT. BLUMBURTT
Rather bizarre menu, woundn't you
say?

INDIANA
Even if they were trying to scare
us away, a devout Hindu would
never touch meat.
(looking around)
Makes you wonder what these people
are...
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:04 AM   #58
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This exchange should've been kept in, too:
WILLIE
(happily)
No? Well, I guess he just hasn't
met the right woman...

As Willie chatters on with the Prime Minister, Indiana wanders
off. He moves to a wall where bronze statues and strange devo-
tional objects are displayed.

CAPT. BLUMBURTT
(joining Indy)
Interested in local curios?

INDIANA
No. But I am interested in the
occult. And this is a krtya.

Indiana picks up a small clay figurine and examines it.

CAPT. BLUMBURTT
(grimacing)
Charming.

INDIANA
It's like the voodoo dolls of West
Africa. The kryta represents your
enemy -- and gives you complete
power over him.

CAPT. BLUMBURTT
That God all that mumbo jumbo
rubbish is disappearing.

INDIANA
You think so?

CAPT. BLUMBURTT
Of course. Admittedly, it's taken
time. Britian's controlled India
for almost two hundred eyars now.

Indiana smiles at the somewhat pompous bureaucrat.

INDIANA
You're hanging on better here
than you did in America.

CAPT. BLUMBURTT
(smiling sourly)
This is a different situation, Dr.
Jones. These people are like
children. We have to lead them
slowly into the twentieth century.

Indiana puts the doll down and looks over at Chattar Lal and
Willie.

INDIANA
The Prime Minister doesn't seem
that naive.

CAPT. BLUMBURTT
No, he's a very shrewd old boy.
Power behind the throne and all
that. He actually runs this whole
province.

Indy and the Prime Minister exchange distant looks as Willie
comes back over to Indiana. She talks to him conspiratorially --
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:06 AM   #59
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If you kept these two sequences in, you'd have an in-movie justification for its "offensive portrayal of Indians" and you'd have a more fan-acceptable version for "why does an Indiana Jones movie feature voodoo?"
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Old 05-07-2018, 04:21 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
If you kept these two sequences in, you'd have an in-movie justification for its "offensive portrayal of Indians" and you'd have a more fan-acceptable version for "why does an Indiana Jones movie feature voodoo?"

I agree, I think both of these scenes would have been a nice edition. I think Spielberg was always trying to do an over the top gross out scene that you would have seen in actual comedies of the 30's. If you included that dialogue it would have been clear that it was not meant to offend Indians. The second scene would have also been nice to show the complexities of the British Raj. It would explain why someone like Chatter Lal who is educated and wants to see his country free again would resort to siding with an evil cult. I think that was always meant to be there but certainly not as clear in the film without this dialogue. The Ultimate Guide does say that Indy was thrown off by the banquet, nice to see James Luceno used the script as a way to flesh out this idea that was left out of the finished film.
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Old 05-12-2018, 05:47 AM   #61
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What I find interesting about Chattar Lal is that he might be the only Thuggee not on the Black Sleep and he's a product of Oxford. It wouldn't surprise me if he voluntarily threw in with the Thuggee as a path to power and influence.

Snark about British colonialism does not necessarily mean Lal has any interest in an independent India. We know how well the Thuggee take care of children too.

Mola Ram is all about a global Thuggee empire and I like that the ToD Sourcebook used Lal's death being cut to say he wasn't quite ready to die for the cause.

But, y'know, keep your politics out of my Indiana Jones. *shakes fist*
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:00 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Nonsense, Toht. What is political about painting a landscape or composing a melody, etc.?

Good question. Despite a lack of a fine arts degree, I'll attempt to answer.
With a landscape painting: what kind of style did the artist employ? Different styles of art have been popular with different political movements over the years, and different styles portray the political climate in which art is created.

Think of German expressionism, coming as it did after the defeat of Germany in the Great War. Stark, bold, with the ever-present threat of darkness and death hanging over it.

Then there's impressionism, which came about during a period of political instability in France, and can be seen as a rejection of the French Academy of Fine Arts, the conservative school that had dominated art training for roughly 200 years.

Also, what kind of landscape is being depicted? Does it show signs of human habitation? If it shows farmland, it could be the product of an agrarian society. Are there buildings in the distance? It could be a product of industrialisation, however subtle. And if the landscape is a deliberate return to nature, eschewing the kind of signs of habitation we're familiar with in the present day, then that in itself is a statement.

At a very bare bones level, any art produced in an industrialised, capitalist society will reflect just that.

The same could be said for music.
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:32 AM   #63
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Lazy link for Stoo: https://www.widewalls.ch/political-a...at-crossroads/
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Old 05-21-2018, 01:24 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toht's Arm
Good question. Despite a lack of a fine arts degree, I'll attempt to answer.
Hi, Toht. As a working artist (with a degree in commercial art), I still respectfully disagree with the common statement that "all art is political". Much of it can be construed to be so, however, not "all". Otherwise, we're talking about everything from world-renowned masterpieces right down to children's drawings that hang on a fridge & beyond (music, sculpture, poetry, etc.) I suppose it boils down to "What is art?" but let's not go down that rabbit hole!

You bring up some slight examples but at the end of the day, even though the artist is the one laying the stuff down, it's the viewer who interprets the work in their own, personal manner. To force a political issue into a piece that is void of such, often resorts merely speculating into the artist's subconsciousness. For instance, Jackson Pollock's paintings were argued to be statements about freedom (even the CIA got involved). Those were the critics' feelings, though, not his.

'Form over content' is one of the general principles of art. It is possible to create something aesthetically pleasing without any political slant whatsoever. Beauty for beauty's sake, as the old saying goes. You mentioned French impressionism. Well, Matisse was a great proponent of this idea.

Yes, a person's output will be influenced by their environment, unintentionally or not, but with Lucasfilm these days, the political injections are obviously VERY intentional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
Already studied 3 years of art history, thank you very much!

---
Apparently the upcoming "Solo" movie has a female-voiced droid who is fighting for droids' rights. Wtf? George has always been an anti-establishment guy but, please, Kathleen, can you pull in your reins a bit? Since Indy 5 is talking place in the late '60s, maybe Kathleen will insist on having a women's lib rally at the college campus where Indy gets the Grail Diary signed by Gloria Steinem!

Last edited by Stoo : 05-21-2018 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:44 AM   #65
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I don't disagree with any of your statements really. I think both posts can coexist. Yes, any interpretation of art will also be clouded by the viewer's own world view (their personal politics, the era in which they live, whether or not they've been seen such art before etc, etc). Pretty much all we do here at the Raven is interpret and extrapolate the art of the Beards, no?

I appreciate that people feel that political viewpoints have become more prevalent in mainstream Hollywood, but I don't think that's the case. I think it's more obvious to us because we're older and more learned than when we first saw the movies of our youth, and because - in some instances - the politics rub some the wrong way, so stand out. (See, for example, the internet commenters who bizarrely think Star Wars only become political from The Force Awakens onwards...)

I can guarantee that the same complaints about movies being less political 'in the good old days' before meddling producers and their agendas got their way have been trotted out since the early days of cinema.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:18 PM   #66
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Well apparently Lando is "pansexual" in the new Solo movie so my worries about Indy V being a PC fest just quadrupled.
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Old 05-21-2018, 01:48 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Hi, Toht. As a working artist (with a degree in commercial art), I still respectfully disagree with the common statement that "all art is political". Much of it can be construed to be so, however, not "all". Otherwise, we're talking about everything from world-renowned masterpieces right down to children's drawings that hang on a fridge & beyond (music, sculpture, poetry, etc.) I suppose it boils down to "What is art?" but let's not go down that rabbit hole!

You bring up some slight examples but at the end of the day, even though the artist is the one laying the stuff down, it's the viewer who interprets the work in their own, personal manner. To force a political issue into a piece that is void of such, often resorts merely speculating into the artist's subconsciousness. For instance, Jackson Pollock's paintings were argued to be statements about freedom (even the CIA got involved). Those were the critics' feelings, though, not his.

'Form over content' is one of the general principles of art. It is possible to create something aesthetically pleasing without any political slant whatsoever. Beauty for beauty's sake, as the old saying goes. You mentioned French impressionism. Well, Matisse was a great proponent of this idea.

Yes, a person's output will be influenced by their environment, unintentionally or not, but with Lucasfilm these days, the political injections are obviously VERY intentional.

Already studied 3 years of art history, thank you very much!

---
Apparently the upcoming "Solo" movie has a female-voiced droid who is fighting for droids' rights. Wtf? George has always been an anti-establishment guy but, please, Kathleen, can you pull in your reins a bit? Since Indy 5 is talking place in the late '60s, maybe Kathleen will insist on having a women's lib rally at the college campus where Indy gets the Grail Diary signed by Gloria Steinem!


Skip to minute 17:39 in this video. If you truly think Disney has some sort of female SJW agenda, you are mistaken. https://youtu.be/KkjtDgjpz98
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:56 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face_Palm
Skip to minute 17:39 in this video. If you truly think Disney has some sort of female SJW agenda, you are mistaken. https://youtu.be/KkjtDgjpz98

Kathleen Kennedy's own words betray the opinion in that video:

Quote:
Originally Posted by From the article
...

Erin Whitney: The Star Wars films have done a lot for female characters and female heroes, but the movies have yet to have a female director. You recently said that a woman who has no experience with blockbusters wasn’t suitable to direct a star wars movie, however multiple male directors have had that opportunity. So why is it different for women and — 

Kathleen Kennedy: That’s not true. This gentleman [points to Gareth] did Godzilla before we hired him to direct the movie. And that quote was taken out of context. And I, as you can imagine, have every intention of giving somebody an opportunity. So, if somebody actually moves through the process of making movies and wants to make a Star Wars movie, and shows that they have actually stepped into the role on that level, of course we’re going to consider a woman. That goes without saying.

EW: Can you name any female directors that you think have potential to direct a Star Wars movie?

KK: There are many. And I’ve talked to most of them. There are many out there.

The message here seems to be that Lucasfilm would welcome a female director for a Star Wars film, provided they they aren’t the ones that have to stomach any of the risk involved in moving them from the realm of independent features to blockbuster films....

The interview in screencrush is a result of Kennedy's words in Variety.

Quote:
Kennedy broached the subject of hiring a woman to direct a Star Wars movie, something she’s previously spoken passionately — an diplomatically — about:

(Kathleen) "We want to make sure that when we bring a female director in to do “Star Wars,” they’re set up for success. They’re gigantic films, and you can’t come into them with essentially no experience. We want to really start to focus in on people we would love to work with and see what kinds of things they’re doing to progress up that ladder now, and then pull them in when the time is right."
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:57 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Well apparently Lando is "pansexual" in the new Solo movie so my worries about Indy V being a PC fest just quadrupled.

Really? I hadn't heard about this. Good grief.
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:44 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Hi, Toht. As a working artist (with a degree in commercial art), I still respectfully disagree with the common statement that "all art is political". Much of it can be construed to be so, however, not "all". Otherwise, we're talking about everything from world-renowned masterpieces right down to children's drawings that hang on a fridge & beyond (music, sculpture, poetry, etc.) I suppose it boils down to "What is art?" but let's not go down that rabbit hole!

You bring up some slight examples but at the end of the day, even though the artist is the one laying the stuff down, it's the viewer who interprets the work in their own, personal manner. To force a political issue into a piece that is void of such, often resorts merely speculating into the artist's subconsciousness. For instance, Jackson Pollock's paintings were argued to be statements about freedom (even the CIA got involved). Those were the critics' feelings, though, not his.

'Form over content' is one of the general principles of art. It is possible to create something aesthetically pleasing without any political slant whatsoever. Beauty for beauty's sake, as the old saying goes. You mentioned French impressionism. Well, Matisse was a great proponent of this idea.

Yes, a person's output will be influenced by their environment, unintentionally or not, but with Lucasfilm these days, the political injections are obviously VERY intentional.

Already studied 3 years of art history, thank you very much!

---
Apparently the upcoming "Solo" movie has a female-voiced droid who is fighting for droids' rights. Wtf? George has always been an anti-establishment guy but, please, Kathleen, can you pull in your reins a bit? Since Indy 5 is talking place in the late '60s, maybe Kathleen will insist on having a women's lib rally at the college campus where Indy gets the Grail Diary signed by Gloria Steinem!

Tenured professor of art history here. I would argue that the very choice to try and make apolitical art is itself a political choice. Art does not exist in a vacuum. The context of both artist and viewer will always impact the conversation.

Personally I've never heard the phrase "form over content," (do you mean "form follows function?"--that one was a principle of early modern architectural design, though it implies the opposite of the argument you're trying to make about beauty for beauty's sake.) I teach my students that form, content, and context are all equally important in the complete understanding of a work of art. In fact, one of the habits I work on breaking my students of is their privileging of appearances or "beauty" over all other aspects of a piece.

Last edited by Lambonius : 05-21-2018 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:08 PM   #71
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Post-modernist art which has no soul, essentially, because beauty doesn't matter.
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Old 05-21-2018, 07:07 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Post-modernist art which has no soul, essentially, because beauty doesn't matter.

Some of the most hilarious art of all time is Postmodern!
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:07 PM   #73
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Some of the most hilarious art of all time is Postmodern!

If I'm looking for art, I'm looking for beauty and an escape from reality. If I'm looking for a laugh I'll go see a comedy.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:13 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
If I'm looking for art, I'm looking for beauty and an escape from reality. If I'm looking for a laugh I'll go see a comedy.

insert the Crystal Skull movie here
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:25 AM   #75
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insert the Crystal Skull movie here

LC, released back when you were around 40, is pretty funny too.
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