KOTCS Re-Cut

Walton

New member
I know there are a few threads that discuss fan-made edits to KOTCS. What about a Spielberg-directed recut?

It's no secret that when filming, they do several takes, Indy's "Part time," line being one of the lines in the trailer that made me laugh...but the cut in the film has a different inflection on it, one that made the moment less Indy, less dry wit.

It seemed to me that the first 2/3s of the film was about on par with the trilogy, take or leave the nuked fridge. But after they get re-captured by Spalko, things seemed to run a little flat. There's Mutt's Tarzan act. Indy v. Devchenko lacked the kind of interest that made the Indy v. German mechanic so fun to watch on Raiders. The Ugha warriors didn't seem particularly menacing. I think if those scenes could be doctored...maybe all they needed were better musical queues (like almost every time a punch was thrown in the Raiders scene) with a handful of added alternate cuts.

They release Director's Cut Blu-Rays and DVDs all the time. So why not a Director's Cut/Re-Cut? Why not a petition? Steven, Harrison, George...this movie is not beyond help. We like it...we want to enjoy it as much as the trilogy. You "fixed" classic Star Wars, so...actually fix KOTCS.
 

Cole

New member
Spielberg already released his cut.......the "problems" you have with the movie likely couldn't be fixed with editing.

The last act of the film, after the whole jungle chase, is less about action and more about the mystery of the skull.

I've maintained that if the last act of the film is slightly underwhelming, it's because the general plotline resembles the previous Indy films.

But even so, there's still a lot to love about it. The sets in particular are extraordinary.

If you go over it with a fine-tooth comb, you're bound to find "problems."
 

The Drifter

New member
Cole said:
Spielberg already released his cut.......the "problems" you have with the movie likely couldn't be fixed with editing.

The last act of the film, after the whole jungle chase, is less about action and more about the mystery of the skull.

I've maintained that if the last act of the film is slightly underwhelming, it's because the general plotline resembles the previous Indy film.

But even so, there's still a lot to love about it. The sets in particular are extraordinary.

If you go over it with a fine-tooth comb, you're bound to find "problems."

I agree that the sets were nice. But, wasn't the cemetery supposed to be on a plateau overlooking the Nazca Lines? I wish they showed more of this and gave us the scale of it on the screen.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Lonsome_Drifter said:
I agree that the sets were nice. But, wasn't the cemetery supposed to be on a plateau overlooking the Nazca Lines? I wish they showed more of this and gave us the scale of it on the screen.

Was there a brief glimpse from the cemetery out over the Nazca plain?

In between reading screenplays, novelizations, and looking at storyboards and artwork, I find it hard to remember what was actually in or out of the movies.

I know that Mutt was supposed to fall through the overhang and dangle over the plain.

Overall I think KOTCS would have benefited from more characterization of the main protagonists, and less stereotypical 1950s-isms. If only Mutt could have been more believable, and less of a Marlon Brando clone, then the father-son relationship could have been more interesting to watch. All this is much more than a simple edit, though.
 

The Drifter

New member
Montana Smith said:
Was there a brief glimpse from the cemetery out over the Nazca plain?

In between reading screenplays, novelizations, and looking at storyboards and artwork, I find it hard to remember what was actually in or out of the movies.

I know that Mutt was supposed to fall through the overhang and dangle over the plain.

Yes, I read somewhere that Mutt was supposed to fall through the over-hang. And, I don't remember them even showing the Nazca plains from the cemetery. They show the Lines from the plane, however.
 
Montana Smith said:
I know that Mutt was supposed to fall through the overhang and dangle over the plain.
There was a story board which showed the tomb floor give away and Mutt, hangin from the corpse of Orelliana over the plain with the lines in view...

4709212757_4da152fa2b.jpg
 
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Cole

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
There was a story board which showed the tomb floor give away and Mutt, hangin from the corpse of Orelliana over the plain with the lines in view...
Did you see that in the 'Making of Indiana Jones' book too? I love that book.

Montana Smith said:
Was there a brief glimpse from the cemetery out over the Nazca plain?

In between reading screenplays, novelizations, and looking at storyboards and artwork, I find it hard to remember what was actually in or out of the movies.

I know that Mutt was supposed to fall through the overhang and dangle over the plain.

Overall I think KOTCS would have benefited from more characterization of the main protagonists, and less stereotypical 1950s-isms. If only Mutt could have been more believable, and less of a Marlon Brando clone, then the father-son relationship could have been more interesting to watch. All this is much more than a simple edit, though.
I believe the very first look of the cemetary, which is an overhead shot - where it fades from the map on Oxley's cell floor to the "real" cemetary - we see a glimpse of the Nazca lines.......but it's fairly easy to miss because it's dark and it's a pretty quick pan. Must've cut it for time.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Cole said:
I believe the very first look of the cemetary, which is an overhead shot - where it fades from the map on Oxley's cell floor to the "real" cemetary - we see a glimpse of the Nazca lines.......but it's fairly easy to miss because it's dark and it's a pretty quick pan. Must've cut it for time.

...and to think how much else they could have cut to make way for some glorious scenic shots, and for some real atmosphere and tension, especially between Indy and Spalko, and Marion looking on from the sidelines ready to fight for her man...
 

Walton

New member
Cole said:
Spielberg already released his cut.......the "problems" you have with the movie likely couldn't be fixed with editing.

The last act of the film, after the whole jungle chase, is less about action and more about the mystery of the skull.

I've maintained that if the last act of the film is slightly underwhelming, it's because the general plotline resembles the previous Indy films.

But even so, there's still a lot to love about it. The sets in particular are extraordinary.

If you go over it with a fine-tooth comb, you're bound to find "problems."

Right, I know it's his cut. That's why I said re-cut. I think he could tighten it up a little more.
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Walton said:
I know there are a few threads that discuss fan-made edits to KOTCS. What about a Spielberg-directed recut?

It's no secret that when filming, they do several takes, Indy's "Part time," line being one of the lines in the trailer that made me laugh...but the cut in the film has a different inflection on it, one that made the moment less Indy, less dry wit.

It seemed to me that the first 2/3s of the film was about on par with the trilogy, take or leave the nuked fridge. But after they get re-captured by Spalko, things seemed to run a little flat. There's Mutt's Tarzan act. Indy v. Devchenko lacked the kind of interest that made the Indy v. German mechanic so fun to watch on Raiders. The Ugha warriors didn't seem particularly menacing. I think if those scenes could be doctored...maybe all they needed were better musical queues (like almost every time a punch was thrown in the Raiders scene) with a handful of added alternate cuts.

They release Director's Cut Blu-Rays and DVDs all the time. So why not a Director's Cut/Re-Cut? Why not a petition? Steven, Harrison, George...this movie is not beyond help. We like it...we want to enjoy it as much as the trilogy. You "fixed" classic Star Wars, so...actually fix KOTCS.

The version of of the film we saw was Spielberg's final cut.

Just to add to one of your criticisms, I thought the Indy vs. Dovchenko fight was one of the things they did absolutely right.
 

Cole

New member
oki9Sedo said:
The version of of the film we saw was Spielberg's final cut.

Just to add to one of your criticisms, I thought the Indy vs. Dovchenko fight was one of the things they did absolutely right.
It's a bit of a retread from the famous German mechanic fight in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'.......but no mind here - the ants add a unique touch.

I particularly love how you see the ants carry Indy's hat back to their hill......and then Indy comes into the shot - skull in hand - picks the hat up and turns around, with the iconic music - great moment.
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Cole said:
It's a bit of a retread from the famous German mechanic fight in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'

But deliberately so, and in a good way.

In moderation, having moments that remind us of stuff in the first films is a very good thing. In moderation of course, since the film had to stand on its own just as the other three did and not be a greatest hits compilation.
 

Matt deMille

New member
If someone does do a fan-cut, here's my suggestions:

1) Remove the "Doomtown" sequence entirely. Not because of the fridge, but just because I feel the 1950's suburban aesthetic takes you out of an Indy film. Just go from Indy coming over the ridge where he sees Doomtown to the airbase (the distant "Doomtown" could *be* the base).
2) Remove Indy's line at the waterfall of how "nobody else has to go" because everyone comes inside anyway. Just go from Mutt's "We have to go through that waterfall!" to everyone inside the tunnel.
3) Cut out Mutt taking his bike along. Don't show the inside of the plane and then start the graveyard sequence after the bike has been panned out of shot. The bike coming along was an unused plot device so just remove it (oh, and take out Mutt's line at the Russian camp of having left his bike behind).
4) Cut out the shot of the school interior at the end (Indy's new office door). It was never explained how he got his job back. We can assume that since the Russian spies were disposed of that those influencing the school were gone, but it's not clear, and this scene is just unnecessary. Just go from the heroes on the mountaintop to the wedding.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Matt deMille said:
If someone does do a fan-cut, here's my suggestions:

1) Remove the "Doomtown" sequence entirely. Not because of the fridge, but just because I feel the 1950's suburban aesthetic takes you out of an Indy film. Just go from Indy coming over the ridge where he sees Doomtown to the airbase (the distant "Doomtown" could *be* the base).
[...]
4) Cut out the shot of the school interior at the end (Indy's new office door). It was never explained how he got his job back. We can assume that since the Russian spies were disposed of that those influencing the school were gone, but it's not clear, and this scene is just unnecessary. Just go from the heroes on the mountaintop to the wedding.

I'm not a fan of the concept of these fan-cuts, but I do take some slight issue with each of these.

Your point 4 - they gave us the beginning of the plot line about Indy falling victim to the Red Scare, which seems necessary, tonally. They can't just not mention it at the end - the office door at least goes someways towards resolving the plot line, I'd argue.

Point 1 is a bigger one, though. The Doomtown sequence pretty well dramatized the extent that Indy is out of place in this new era, both with the suburban and atomic elements. It's <I>meant</I> to take you out of what we're accustomed to as the Indy aesthetic. It's one of the showpiece sequences of the film, one of the ones that makes it worthwhile.

(I agree, though, that they didn't do anything interesting with Mutt's bike once they left the States.)
 

Cole

New member
Attila the Professor said:
I'm not a fan of the concept of these fan-cuts, but I do take some slight issue with each of these.

Your point 4 - they gave us the beginning of the plot line about Indy falling victim to the Red Scare, which seems necessary, tonally. They can't just not mention it at the end - the office door at least goes someways towards resolving the plot line, I'd argue.

Point 1 is a bigger one, though. The Doomtown sequence pretty well dramatized the extent that Indy is out of place in this new era, both with the suburban and atomic elements. It's <I>meant</I> to take you out of what we're accustomed to as the Indy aesthetic. It's one of the showpiece sequences of the film, one of the ones that makes it worthwhile.

(I agree, though, that they didn't do anything interesting with Mutt's bike once they left the States.)
Concerning point 4, I agree it would be a huge loose-end to have. I know some people don't think they gave an adequate explanation, but in terms of the film's momentum, I think it works fantastically. I don't think everything needs to be explained in detail - we can connect the dots - we know what we need to know.

As far as momentum - what I mean is the wedding is the focal point of the end. Explaining monotonous details about how Indy got his job back would bog it down.

As is, we get the climax at Akator, cut to Dean Stanforth running down the hallway (visually maintaing the momentum), we get the cute/humerous line - we know Indy has his job back (an even better job in fact) - and then we get the slick transformation to the wedding with close-up of the bible..............now we're at the wedding scene, and the mood is electrically charged.

Agreed about the Doomtown sequence.........as much as what's made about the "nuke the fridge" nonsense, it was one of the highlights of the film for me on May 22, 2008 and it remains such today. The way the tension is built with the countdown and Howdy Doody playing in and out of the background, the creepiness of the mannequins, the stunning, vibrant visuals of this typical, perfect, American 1950's neighborhood - even down to Ford's frantic acting........I think it's a brilliantly shot scene for sure. Love how Indy also has to use his wits/intelligence to get out of the dire situation - very Indy to me.

The blast itself is also intense.......whatever lighthearted elements follow with the refrigerator flying through the air I think offsets that intensity, and balances well. Plus I found the lighthearted elements generally funny/entertaining.

I - personally - didn't view it as Indy being out of place per se.......but it is important in setting the era, particularly that of the age of the atomic bomb. The shot of Indy's silhouette in front of the mushroom cloud is reminiscent of the shot with Indy in front of the UFO. Spalko talks about Oppenheimer's quote about becoming death - the destroyer of worlds - and how it was nuclear intimidation, and the next super weapon would be their's (the skull).........so there's probably a sublte theme of man having too much power here.
 

emtiem

Well-known member
Removing Doomtown is a bizarre suggestion; it's just about the most successful sequence in the whole film. It's original and just about the only occurrence of proper tension and peril in the film.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
emtiem said:
Removing Doomtown is a bizarre suggestion; it's just about the most successful sequence in the whole film. It's original and just about the only occurrence of proper tension and peril in the film.

Agreed. It's such an awesome scene and is so outrageous that it works. Such an eerie scene done with such wit and swagger, in my opinion.

And KOTCS does feature a lack of danger, no doubt. I feel TOD suffered from that same problem (aside from the whipping torture scene). I mean c'mon, they jump out of a plane on a raft then over a cliff, then into a raging river, and it doesn't feel dangerous at all. Same with the mine cart chase. They feel like fun scenes, but that's all they are. Fun. And we're just observing their luck without feeling that they're vulnerable.

KOTCS is the exact same way. The Jungle Chase, while great fun, is just us observing their luck and not feeling their situation as threatening.

Why would you remove any scenes (I can see the monkey scene, that could be removed but still work with Mutt swinging out of nowhere) because that's how it was supposed to be. Take it as it is.

Especially the Doomtown sequence. Remove that and one of the coolest scenes in the series is gone.
 
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StoneTriple

New member
Attila the Professor said:
I'm not a fan of the concept of these fan-cuts...

That's where I've always been on them as well. If a film is at the point where you want to remove 30 minutes of it, alter the sound, alter the picture, & alter the music, just so you feel it's acceptable - then you really need to just watch something else.

Go see a movie in the theater - if you like it, watch it again and buy the DVD. If you don't, then say goodbye to it or make peace with the scenes you would have done differently.

We've entered a new world of thinking these days where some people feel they need to correct someone's mistakes. If you don't like a film, that doesn't mean it was done incorrectly - it means you don't like it. Move past it.

I only like, own, & watch one of the Star Wars films (1977). That doesn't mean the other five are wrong and need to be corrected. It just means my Star Wars marathons are much shorter than anyone else's.

There are parts in all the Indiana Jones films that I would have done differently. I wish they hadn't changed Marcus into a bumbling idiot in Crusade, I wish they hadn't done the silly life raft fall or the childish gross-out dinner scene in Temple, shown the ship in Kingdom, or had a double-agent English-speaking monkey in Raiders. However, none of those things needs to be corrected. They're just things that I sort of wince at and move past.
 

Matt deMille

New member
Whew! I never so many people liked Doomtown. But you're all right, of course. I was just throwing these out there as suggestions. I certainly take movies as is. I don't correct 'em. I thought others around here were more interested in the idea than I was.

Definitely right on about the lack of feeling peril, except I thought it was most lacking in Crusade, second most-lacking in Kingdom. Temple had plenty of moments of feeling in danger.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Walton said:
They release Director's Cut Blu-Rays and DVDs all the time. So why not a Director's Cut/Re-Cut? Why not a petition? Steven, Harrison, George...this movie is not beyond help. We like it...we want to enjoy it as much as the trilogy. You "fixed" classic Star Wars, so...actually fix KOTCS.
Why don't you start a petition, then? Let's see how far you get with it.:rolleyes:
StoneTriple said:
That's where I've always been on them as well. If a film is at the point where you want to remove 30 minutes of it, alter the sound, alter the picture, & alter the music, just so you feel it's acceptable - then you really need to just watch something else.

Go see a movie in the theater - if you like it, watch it again and buy the DVD. If you don't, then say goodbye to it or make peace with the scenes you would have done differently.

We've entered a new world of thinking these days where some people feel they need to correct someone's mistakes. If you don't like a film, that doesn't mean it was done incorrectly - it means you don't like it. Move past it.
"I heartily agree with you." (Love your quip about your short "Star Wars" marathon!:D) There has been much discussion about what some disgruntled fans would like to cut but probably the most ludicrous suggestion has been from someone who actually wants to ADD their own dream sequence to "Crystal Skull"!:rolleyes:

Calling all video editors and effects artists
Phantom Edit of Indy 4

That said, I have a voracious appetite for deleted scenes!
 
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