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Old 10-22-2005, 12:34 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick5150
Heck, I thought we were doing pretty well here...

Actually, I think we're doing very well considering the subject matter and those of us involved in this discussion. I think we all have the tendency to get hot-headed in discussions like these from time to time but the level of respect in this thread is really quite surprising and I hope the dicussion can remain this way.
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Old 10-22-2005, 01:10 PM   #102
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For the record Rick 5150, when it comes to respect on these boards, I think you are #1 on the list, and I thank you for that.

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” (Matthew 7:12).

(Actually, my Bible says, "Therefore all that you wish men to do to you, even so do you also to them." Same with Luke 6:31 - "And even as you wish men to do to you, so do you also to them.")

I have learned that folks often get what they give. I was a moderator/administrator at a couple of forums before starting my own bulletin board where I encourage controversial topics. It is difficult to learn anything new if you do not listen to alternate opinions.

You do not have to thank me. My personal opinion is that there are few things as enlightening as having a debate (often heated) with someone and you both walk away having learned something. Extra bonus if you are still on speaking terms when it is over

My first rule of any internet forum? Have fun. Everything beyond that is icing on the cake.
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Old 10-22-2005, 01:11 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Pale Horse
Yes, one of the better discussions here, from both a mod and a member.

Palehorse, your other avatar fit the name better
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Old 10-22-2005, 01:31 PM   #104
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I am surprised you enjoy this thread pale, as you are usually the one who threatens to clse a thread when it strays fromt he topic, and this one has strayed
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:04 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Rick5150
"You can have all the faith you want in spirits and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don’t be an idiot. ‘Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to get you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways."

This is a very practicle quote indeed,and to be sure it parallels the "God help's those who help themselves" quote I like to remind myself from time to time. But I see these more as common sense then true faith. Faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see. I don't see how that applies to crossing the street. In that respect, I think that all man demonstrate faith to a remarkable level. What you put your faith in, then becomes the question. Whether you put your faith in the story of Noah's Ark, or the science that has yet to prove definitively that a global flood didn't happen, you are still exercising faith .

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That is where faith comes in. You must believe in the unbelievable, against all odds. (I am using the pronoun "you" in it's collective capacity, I am not singling anyone out.) Blind faith can have great rewards, but more often than not you are disappointed.

Bilnd faith can indeed prove to be disappointing, but there will be many here who will argue that faith in God, Jehovah, Mohammad, Buddah or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't blind. I certainly know my personal beliefs don't lead to the blind side of faith.

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Try one thing for a few weeks. Rather than praise God for all the good that happens in your life and condemning yourself for the bad things, try giving God credit for all the things that happen - good or bad. After all, he is the ultimate deity who knows all and sees all. Blame God when the innocent baby dies addicted to crack, or the flood kills hundreds of people. Read the papers and watch the news.

Unfortunately, this is the reality of the world we live in. But I don't think that viewing God as the puppet master pulling the stings on this is an effective argeument, (though I am not convinced this is your arguement).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church doesn't have the corner on the market for abuses perpetrated by religions (not to mention governments or nations). I shall not enumerate, but I’m sure all of us can think of examples. If you look at the world from a Christian (Protestant or Catholic) standpoint, the fundamental starting point is the premise that man is a fallen creature.

Man as the fallen creature becomes the central point of where this board starts to draw lines, in my opinion. It also takes this thread back to the Noah's Ark story initially started many pages ago. To paraphrase the Bible (which may be the reason so many people don't know the actually context of the story) Noah and his family were found by God to be the only righteous people on Earth, so he vowed to punish the sins of man by destroying the Earth through a flood. Quick sum up: build an ark, get the animals, and start anew.

But at the heart of the story is the fallen man. The empirical arguement of this thread, once you strip it of all the presuppositions we add to it is whether or not you believe that man is fallen.

Tough question. It's a yes or no question, but if you say no, your logical mind looks around the world and sees the crack babies, and looting in N.O. LA, and the crime in Europe, and you now have a dilemma. If you say yes, you have to then ask, fallen from what. But until you ask yourself that question, there can be no common ground to progress from.

For the record, I am a Fallen Man, kinda guy.

Being a moderator here will do that to ya, {snicker}
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Old 10-31-2005, 06:17 PM   #106
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Always a big fan of Noah, he was a drunk and liked his wine, and I guess so did good ole' JC, and if anyone read Lamb by Christopher Moore, he has some great Jesus Drunk stories.
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Old 11-01-2005, 02:43 AM   #107
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Eh, ever tried Julian Barnes? A History of the World in 10 ½ Chapters sounds like a recommendable read...
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Old 11-01-2005, 08:43 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Pale Horse
But at the heart of the story is the fallen man. The empirical arguement of this thread, once you strip it of all the presuppositions we add to it is whether or not you believe that man is fallen.
Part of the difficulty for some (as I see it) lies in this: to accept the reality that man is fallen/unregenerate, ultimately leads to the conclusion that sin is a reality, and the existence of sin requires both accountability and atonement. The redemption aspect has been provided for by God through the sacrifice of His Son, as the Creator recognizes that a flawed humanity is incapable of paying the price for their own unrighteousness or living up to the standard of His holy law. But the accountability...to me this hits on the idea of Christ as a scandalon: the stumbling block, or offense, that helps lead men to conviction of sin. At the core, prideful humanity doesn't want to be convinced of their own sinfulness, which is why I believe many reject the idea of fallen man altogether.
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:41 AM   #109
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Why does anyone have to be fallen? We do right, we do worng, but there is no judge, except the laws of man, hell mother nature, now there is a judge, and it seems she is a bit pissed. Maybe we will have another flood? hmmmm. . ..
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:12 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by roundshort
Why does anyone have to be fallen? We do right, we do worng, but there is no judge, except the laws of man, hell mother nature, now there is a judge, and it seems she is a bit pissed. Maybe we will have another flood? hmmmm. . ..

Actually, we won't see another deluge of that magnitude since God promised never to flood the entire earth again (hence the promise of the rainbow).
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:19 PM   #111
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Wow, what a guy (gal, whatever you want it to be), I guess he didn't like New Orleans?
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Old 11-03-2005, 02:59 PM   #112
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IS this on topic?

Pale, in your private message you jumped all over my stuff for being off of topic, which is finding Noah's Ark, umm, I think this long winded passage is about as far off topic as you can get, hhhmmmmm? At least my post was a bout Noah, and his well noted drinking habits, so am I to understand that you can post off topic and if anyone else does you send them a little hate mail?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
Are there any theologians here who are dismissing the Bible? I know that Clinton and Rick probably fall into the category of those who have actually read the book, and are therefore qualified to question any or all of it.

The rest of you dismiss it and it's content because you have no capacity to actually discipline yourselves to better who you are by reading someone elses writings (whether you agree with it or not) and actually forming an intelligent thought about what you read.

To prove my point, what is the book of Ruth about? Can anyone tell me the historical significance of the minor prophets as it realtes to the timeline of the Jews and the land of Isreal? How are the book of Daniel and Ezekiel related? These are far simplier things to discuss and actually have a real-world application for what is happening today in the middle east, (especially when you consider that there is an entire nation whose history is summed up in the context of the Bible) and yet, none of our Bible dismissing scholars here would be able to take that knowledge and use it in a global business setting because they think it (the Bible) as a farse.

"It can't be legit because I can't wrap my finite mind around it." This is such a powerful arguement. Wow, so martial art's don't work because you can't tell me the sound of one hand clapping? Just because something is incomprehendable, doesn't mean it isn't true. Just as many have said there are "stories" in the Bible that can't be proved, no one can prove them fasle, either. Hence the arguement of faith that was touched on earlier. Now I know I will take flak for this, for I am being too fundamental, but there are some here that think nothing of p***ing on another mans faith. To me that's an outright insult. You want to discuss differences in opinion about sensitive issues, then take a page from the example of Rick. Form a well thought out response and challenge your audience with an actual statement. I'll even take the cynicism of a Clinton Hammond because he doesn't insult people. But if you are going to continue to participate in this thread, take the above to heed.

As for the Church (and by that I mean the Catholic Chruch), we have to be careful we don't lump the sins of the church into the teaching of the Bible. The abuse of alter boys is a horrid scar that hides the true ethics and moral found inside it's covers. That is one reason that Freemasonry has facinated me so. As part of it's foundation, there is a contempt of the church as a religious institution, for all of it's money and misused power. I know there are Catholic's here so I will wait for some comments from them before continuing.

EDIT: Spelling
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Old 11-03-2005, 03:12 PM   #113
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I can't know the content of the PM's between you and Pale Horse, roundshort, and I could be being dense here, but to me the post you quoted is related to the subject of Noah's Ark, as it is defending the credibility of the Bible, where the story of the Ark is recorded. Or am I missing something?
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Old 11-03-2005, 03:42 PM   #114
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Paden, I have no clue(in more ways than one), I was as usual killign time at work between apointments, and I check the theraider.net, as it is my homepage, and slped the raven button, and a-ha, a private message, so I open it to find a lovely piece of hate mail form Pale, so I respond with my typical, what the f, type response, a little shocked, a few days later I get a pm back about who he was "calling me out" and my email had NOTHING to do with the thread of "finding Noah's Ark," (which to me is a neat ride in Kennywood in Pittsburgh), and he said I was being disruptive (who me, disruptive? Sarcasim) i'll give you the names of all of my teachers, they can tell you stories) So I filpped through the thread only too see that as early as page 2, this thread was way off topic,
Paden, you know I am not a strict by the book type guy, but I am consistant, so if you want to throw stones at me cool, but I do not live in a glass house and I will throw back, anyhow, we in the wine business (Christian or not) love Noah, because he loved his wine! and yes int he bible he gets drunk to me I want to find the ark to see what type of booze he had on board, I wouldbe some type of Sherry or other backed wine, maybe even Retsina (yum)< but if you want to get anal abouot it, and many people here do, Pale thread has nothing to do with the ramification of finding the ark, the thread is not about defending the credibility of the Bible, it is about the discovery of the ark,

What'ca gonna do?
Thanks for the kind post Paden
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:12 AM   #115
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hate mail. hmmm

for the record, in 3 PM's when I asked you about the motivation of your Noah and his drinking quote, you never touched on what you what you just noted to Paden above. Could have saved a lot unnecessary discussion if you had simply said if "Noah's ark isn't found, that puts a whole different spin on us in the wine business" or something to that effect.

In light of this this most recent discovery I will simply say "Thank you", again and now that your intenetions have been made known, I will not trouble you again in the PM system.
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Old 11-04-2005, 11:35 AM   #116
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hhhhmmm.
Pale, it is more of your tone, when you say things like, "man to man" "I'm calling you out" "you don't care" it reminds me of prases we used to use on the play ground back in 3erd and 4th grade, it is not very respectful.
Thank you, maybe high horse would be a better name?
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Old 11-04-2005, 12:18 PM   #117
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"in your private message"

Kindly keep Private Messages exactly that...
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Old 11-04-2005, 01:05 PM   #118
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not a huge fan of the pm, don't always see them up there ya know, and days weeks years go by, and never give an answer, hate to be rude, ya'know!
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Old 11-04-2005, 01:48 PM   #119
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we had "the Pit" at baisc, it was a huge, and I mean huge sandbox, the DI's would dig us in the pit almost everyday, usually before we hit the rack, so it was after out showers and we were nice and clean. We would do many various things, like situps, push ups, "electric chair" etc, anything that woudl get us covered in sand, remember this was Parris Island inthe summer, so just breathing made you sweet, and the sand sticked. When we were done we were excused, hit the rack, covered in sand, and that was how we usually slept. People wonder why I hate the sand!

That has nothing to do with Noahs ark, I'll grant you!
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