Did the action scenes disappoint?

Jones_Happens · Jun 13, 2008

agentsands77 said:
There was still more of a sense of peril, suspense, and excitement than ever appears in KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL, if you ask me. KINGDOM never has a scene that even comes close to the opening nightclub sequence or the spike trap.

Unfortunately, it's all one person's reaction to a scene. I have seen the spike room scene in ToD ripped to shreds for being silly, stupid, and badly acted.

Some people found KOTCS thrilling, others most definitely did not.

Quickening · Jun 13, 2008

Dovchenko said:
Unfortunately, it's all one person's reaction to a scene. I have seen the spike room scene in ToD riper to shreds for being silly, stupid, and badly acted.

Which mental home were you visiting?

Jones_Happens · Jun 13, 2008

Quickening said:
Which mental home were you visiting?

What an unnecessary and useless comment. Thank you!

BTW, I'm a big fan of that scene!! "We...are...going...to...DIE!"

Quickening · Jun 13, 2008

Dovchenko said:
What an unnecessary and useless comment. Thank you!

BTW, I'm a big fan of that scene!! "We...are...going...to...DIE!"

Well Ive never heard anyone say it was "silly, stupid" and/or "badly acted". Especially the latter. The spike chamber scene is generally regarded as a classic Indy scene even by people who don't like Temple of Doom.

Anyway no need to thank me. If you want anymore useless comments just ask <3

MolaRam2 · Jun 13, 2008

Darth Vile said:
I felt the same way about TOD... in that every scene that contained peril was played as a joke e.g. "No time for wove Doctor Jones", "We are going to die" or the infamous "Hang on wady we go for wide".

But on reflection, it has it's charm...

"We are going to die" isn't a joke, it was Indy trying to convince Willie to pull the lever to save him and Short Round. There is humor in ToD, but it is in character and does not detract from the action and peril. The humor in KOTCS tried to hard, did not feel natural, and detracted from any possible action or peril.

"No time for love Dr. Jones," did not downplay the intensity of the car chase, it was merely Short Round telling Dr. Jones that he didn't have time to be messing around with Willie.

The LC scenes of peril were much more jokey than the ToD scenes of peril. The fire in the castle was one big slapstick gag.

ToD has the most danger and peril of the entire series by far. Trying to get the antidote, the car chase, the escape from the plane, the spike room, the conveyor belt fight, rescuing Willie from the fiery pit, Indy sneaking around (before caught), the fight in Indy's bedroom, the conveyor belt fight, the mine cart chase, the water rushing out of the cliff, and the rope bridge scene were all moments of great peril. KOTCS does not have one moment that compares to any of these.

agentsands77 · Jun 13, 2008

MolaRam2 said:
The LC scenes of peril were much more jokey than the ToD scenes of peril. The fire in the castle was one big slapstick gag.

I agree. It's one of the reasons that CRUSADE is, by far, my least favorite Indy adventure.

Darth Vile · Jun 13, 2008

MolaRam2 said:
"We are going to die" isn't a joke, it was Indy trying to convince Willie to pull the lever to save him and Short Round. There is humor in ToD, but it is in character and does not detract from the action and peril. The humor in KOTCS tried to hard, did not feel natural, and detracted from any possible action or peril.

"No time for love Dr. Jones," did not downplay the intensity of the car chase, it was merely Short Round telling Dr. Jones that he didn't have time to be messing around with Willie.

ToD has the most danger and peril of the entire series by far. Trying to get the antidote, the car chase, the escape from the plane, the spike room, the conveyor belt fight, rescuing Willie from the fiery pit, Indy sneaking around (before caught), the fight in Indy's bedroom, the conveyor belt fight, the mine cart chase, the water rushing out of the cliff, and the rope bridge scene were all moments of great peril. KOTCS does not have one moment that compares to any of these.

What? With the greatest respect... Are we watching the same movie? I believe you are imbuing the TOD with more than is there. If the movie is not played for laughs (in the most part), then it can only go down as the worst scripted and acted Indy movie. It's totaly played for laughs. Every single scene you mention is underpinned by humour that (IMHO) takes any real sense of peril away.

Just to underline your examples with my challenges i.e. TOD too comical (and this is off the top of my head without thinking about it).

1) Shanghai car chase – Short Round with blocks tied to his feet for comic amusement, poor sexual innuendo e.g. “no time for love”, “I’ve only just met you for Pete’s sake”. Rickshaw being run off the road in Benny Hill style and “I’ve cracked a nail”, the bloody cameo by Dan bloody Ackroyd. Even the Lao Che airline is a visual gag

2) Escape from the Plane – Although I think it’s probably the best scene in the entire movie, it’s basically a comedy scene e.g. “You know how to fly a plane don’t you?”, “We’re not sinking, we’re crashing”. “That wasn’t too bad… was it?” and the rest of the fumbling life raft paddling scene.

3) Conveyor belt scene all based around the totally preposterous Indy voodoo doll – Enough said.

4) Mine Cart Chase – Totally unbelievable stop motion animation defuses any real sense of tension. If CGI jungle doesn't cut it, how can clay dolls?

5) Rope Bridge – Whilst I like the scene and the situation, again a lot of is tongue in cheek e.g. “Hang on wady we go for wide”, He not nutz, he cwazy”, “Prepare to meet Kali in Hell” etc. etc.

What I don’t understand is that you seem to dislike KOTCS for some/all the reasons you like TOD.

Darth Vile · Jun 13, 2008

agentsands77 said:
There was still more of a sense of peril, suspense, and excitement than ever appears in KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL, if you ask me. KINGDOM never has a scene that even comes close to the opening nightclub sequence or the spike trap.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the opening warehouse scenes from KOTCS is in a league above the opening Club Obi-Wan scenes from TOD. And whilst I love the concept of the spike trap (and how it plays in the movie), I believe it is devoid of any sense of peril, as it's played for laughs.

agentsands77 · Jun 13, 2008

Darth Vile said:
Every single scene you mention is underpinned by humour that (IMHO) takes any real sense of peril away.

It's underpinned by humor, but I don't think the humor is of the sort that undermines the tension. Humor and a sense of danger aren't necessarily at odds (I don't really think humor is the problem in KINGDOM's action sequences, either... just laziness).

Darth Vile said:
1) Shanghai car chase – Short Round with blocks tied to his feet for comic amusement, poor sexual innuendo e.g. “no time for love”, “I’ve only just met you for Pete’s sake”. Rickshaw being run off the road in Benny Hill style and “I’ve cracked a nail”, the bloody cameo by Dan bloody Ackroyd. Even the Lao Che airline is a visual gag.

I don't see how any of those things really undermine the tension in this sequence. Especially the Dan Ackroyd cameo, given that it's almost impossible to tell whether or not it's him given that we never get a good look at him.

Darth Vile said:
2) Escape from the Plane – Although I think it’s probably the best scene in the entire movie,

Forgive me a moment of surprise. It's nice to see someone who likes that scene, given how much it gets slagged. It's not a favorite scene of mine, however.

Darth Vile said:
3) Conveyor belt scene all based around the totally preposterous Indy voodoo doll – Enough said.

I don't get the hate for the voodoo doll. I, myself, love the voodoo doll, and think it's used appropriately to develop tension in that scene.

Darth Vile said:
4) Mine Cart Chase – Totally unbelievable stop motion animation defuses any real sense of tension. If CGI jungle doesn't cut it, how can clay dolls?

To be honest, I have a hard time telling between the live action and stop motion animation. I've always thought the effects in this sequence were top notch.

Darth Vile said:
5) Rope Bridge – Whilst I like the scene and the situation, again a lot of is tongue in cheek e.g. “Hang on wady we go for wide”, He not nutz, he cwazy”, “Prepare to meet Kali in Hell” etc. etc.

I don't really think the "Hang on wady we go for a ride" makes the sequence itself tongue in cheek. I mean, the bridge is about to drop... what kind of reactions would you expect?

Darth Vile · Jun 13, 2008

I think the humour (or degree of) can't help but undermine the sense of peril if that?s how it?s being played. For me, where Last Crusade is more humorous in tone, TOD is more comical (as in cartoonish).

For what it's worth... I am of course overemphasizing the points in my previous post to make a point. I have a high regard for TOD, but being objective, I think the only movie that ever had a real sense of peril was Raiders - as it was played a little straighter and, was of course, the original movie. The perilous scenes within the sequels are not really about seeing/wondering if Indy will survive; rather it?s about seeing/wondering how he will get out of any given scrape. So the excitement is borne out of anticipation rather than fear for the characters safety.

agentsands77 · Jun 13, 2008

Darth Vile said:
The perilous scenes within the sequels are not really about seeing/wondering if Indy will survive; rather it?s about seeing/wondering how he will get out of any given scrape. So the excitement is borne out of anticipation rather than fear for the characters safety.

This is a true statement. And that's really where I feel KINGDOM misses the boat.

Crusade>Raiders · Jun 13, 2008

^What, you were anticipating "Gee, how is Indy going to get out of a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION?"

I'm glad I wasn't the only guy who laughed all through Temple of Doom.

Filmphoenix · Jun 13, 2008

robisindy said:
Let me start by saying I really like this movie. I recognize it's flaws, but I think it stands up well to the others.

But I think for me one of the biggest things that bugged me about the movie was the action scenes. There just weren't a whole lot of the Indy action moments that I loved in the other 3. In a lot of the action, Indy was along for the ride, or a secondary character in the scene. I went back and compared the action scenes from all three movies.

Raiders
The idol Temple/escape from Peru, the bar fight, basket chase, airplane fight, the truck chase - All iconic scenes with Indy the main cog in the action.
The ark being opened is not truly an "action" scene, but is the one scene in the movie where there's a lot happening and Indy isn't the protagonist, but more of a bystander.

Temple of Doom

The nightclub, plane escape, thuggee fight in his bedroom, the fight in the temple with Chatter Lal and co, the fight with Pat Roach on the conveyor, the escape into the mine car chase, and the rope bridge - Again, Indy is the main player in all of these scenes, with Shorty getting a brief piece of the spotlight before the mine car chase

Last Crusade

The train, the ship Coronado, catacombs/boat chase, Castle Brunwald action, motorcycle chase, plane/car chase, tank attack - Indy is the one making it happen in all these scenes

Crystal Skull

Warehouse/Nuclear Blast - Indy is the main player here, and in my opinion the warehouse scene is one of the best in the movie

Motorcycle chase - The highlight is Indy going in the car and coming back out, but Mutt is driving and he is the one that eludes the bad guys

Grave robbing scene - Indy is the main player, but the scene is so short it doesn't give a ton of pleasure in the action

Jungle chase - Most of the action is Mutt - Indy mainly drives around in this scene, while Mutt punches, fences, and swings all over the place

The ant fight - Great fight scene with Indy at the center of it

Climactic scene in the temple - Indy is pretty much just an observer of what is going on

So 6 main action scenes (7 if you want to count the waterfalls, but Indy didn't do much in that scene either), with Indy being at the center of only three of them. I guess it was to be expected that there wouldn't be quite as much stuntwork with Harrison Ford involved because of his age, but I was hoping for more than what we got.

Does anyone else agree?

I liked the movie, but I can agree with this criticism. Indy should have had seen more action.

Filmphoenix · Jun 13, 2008

Sankara said:
Yes, the actions-Scenes are very lousy. "Indiana Jones" mean REAL Stunts! In "Skull" is to much blue-screen-Action and over the top action-Scenes. That's the reason why so many people think "Skull" is not as good as the other Indy-Movies...

TOD and LC had just as much blue screen (green screen back then). TOD has so much green screen it looks like it was shot entirely on a sound stage.

Peacock's-Eye · Jun 13, 2008

I for one was not disappointed. The bike chase & jungle battle were top notch. And the warehouse sequence is amazing.

agentsands77 · Jun 13, 2008

Filmphoenix said:
TOD and LC had just as much blue screen (green screen back then). TOD has so much green screen it looks like it was shot entirely on a sound stage.

True. I think the difference is really the cinematography. KINGDOM is shot in a way that makes it look much more digital all throughout, so even when effects aren't being used, it still has that computerized sheen. It's unfortunate, since by Spielberg's own word he was expressly trying to avoid such a look.

Filmphoenix · Jun 13, 2008

Darth Vile said:
What? With the greatest respect... Are we watching the same movie? I believe you are imbuing the TOD with more than is there. If the movie is not played for laughs (in the most part), then it can only go down as the worst scripted and acted Indy movie. It's totaly played for laughs. Every single scene you mention is underpinned by humour that (IMHO) takes any real sense of peril away.

Just to underline your examples with my challenges i.e. TOD too comical (and this is off the top of my head without thinking about it).

1) Shanghai car chase ? Short Round with blocks tied to his feet for comic amusement, poor sexual innuendo e.g. ?no time for love?, ?I?ve only just met you for Pete?s sake?. Rickshaw being run off the road in Benny Hill style and ?I?ve cracked a nail?, the bloody cameo by Dan bloody Ackroyd. Even the Lao Che airline is a visual gag

2) Escape from the Plane ? Although I think it?s probably the best scene in the entire movie, it?s basically a comedy scene e.g. ?You know how to fly a plane don?t you??, ?We?re not sinking, we?re crashing?. ?That wasn?t too bad? was it?? and the rest of the fumbling life raft paddling scene.

3) Conveyor belt scene all based around the totally preposterous Indy voodoo doll ? Enough said.

4) Mine Cart Chase ? Totally unbelievable stop motion animation defuses any real sense of tension. If CGI jungle doesn't cut it, how can clay dolls?

5) Rope Bridge ? Whilst I like the scene and the situation, again a lot of is tongue in cheek e.g. ?Hang on wady we go for wide?, He not nutz, he cwazy?, ?Prepare to meet Kali in Hell? etc. etc.

What I don?t understand is that you seem to dislike KOTCS for some/all the reasons you like TOD.

I totally agree.

Filmphoenix · Jun 13, 2008

agentsands77 said:
It's underpinned by humor, but I don't think the humor is of the sort that undermines the tension. Humor and a sense of danger aren't necessarily at odds (I don't really think humor is the problem in KINGDOM's action sequences, either... just laziness).

I don't see how any of those things really undermine the tension in this sequence. Especially the Dan Ackroyd cameo, given that it's almost impossible to tell whether or not it's him given that we never get a good look at him.

Forgive me a moment of surprise. It's nice to see someone who likes that scene, given how much it gets slagged. It's not a favorite scene of mine, however.

I don't get the hate for the voodoo doll. I, myself, love the voodoo doll, and think it's used appropriately to develop tension in that scene.

To be honest, I have a hard time telling between the live action and stop motion animation. I've always thought the effects in this sequence were top notch.

You have got to be kidding. I hate to be rude ,but there just isn't any other way to say this, if you couldn't tell the effect shots in that sequence you must be blind. Again I apologize for my rudeness.

Katarn07 · Jun 13, 2008

Filmphoenix said:
TOD and LC had just as much blue screen (green screen back then). TOD has so much green screen it looks like it was shot entirely on a sound stage.

I think you got that mixed up. Isn't it green today, blue yesterday? I make this arguement all the time but the CGI-haters don't wanna hear it. For some reason, fake looking effects from 20 years ago are preferred to fake looking effects of today.

I felt the action was very underwhelming my first viewing. The motorcycle chase was easily the best of the litter for me the first time I saw it (as well as the second time). I appreciated the jungle chase more my second viewing (along with everything else). I think I was just expecting RotLA as Koepp and Lucas hyped this thing up to be that I wasn't able to appreciate it for being its own thing.

But aren't a lot of people unimpressed with the action in LC? I think the action in this one, while not as plentiful, was on par with that film's action sequences.

Filmphoenix · Jun 13, 2008

Darth Vile said:
I think the humour (or degree of) can't help but undermine the sense of peril if that?s how it?s being played. For me, where Last Crusade is more humorous in tone, TOD is more comical (as in cartoonish).

For what it's worth... I am of course overemphasizing the points in my previous post to make a point. I have a high regard for TOD, but being objective, I think the only movie that ever had a real sense of peril was Raiders - as it was played a little straighter and, was of course, the original movie. The perilous scenes within the sequels are not really about seeing/wondering if Indy will survive; rather it?s about seeing/wondering how he will get out of any given scrape. So the excitement is borne out of anticipation rather than fear for the characters safety.

I agree. We all know Indy and the others are in no real danger we are waiting to see how he will get out of it.

Did the action scenes disappoint?

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