Sons of Darkness: 12 Years Later

Rob Smith

New member
No worries mate...

thanks for having me.

I'm just here to see if others see what I see... I pretty much forgot about my Indy script/stunt, chalked it up to experience, and moved on.

But when the plot of the new film leaked out and similarities were clearly there, I perked up. And then while sitting in the movie theater as just a regular Indy fan and that match dissolve to a mound of sand came on, I just about soiled myself.

And that alien skull resurrection scene had me saying to my buddy..."you gotta be frakin' kidding me?!?"

But... what an honour if it's true. I would have preferred the call from Lucas... but you take what you can get these days. :)
 

Rob Smith

New member
The Good, The Bad...

and The Ugly...

It's hard to believe that after 12 years I'm still defending myself and my script, but that's exactly what's going on over at Mystery Man On Film:

http://mysterymanonfilm.blogspot.com/

The guy there (I call him Sunshine) has gone out of his way to ridicule me over the years... and still seems hell-bent on trashing my name. For the longest time I thought he was one of Lucas' goons. But this guy's a free agent for sure. Go read the mud-slinging and my final message to Sunshine. He just doesn't get it.
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, that's a bit harsh: "You?re a third rate hack wannabe screenwriter... a criminal, a plagiarist, and a liar to boot." He probably just remembers the frustration of sorting fact from fiction in the wild west days of the internet.

Rob, what I'd love to see is your correspondence with Lucasfilm. Was it via mail or email?
 

Peacock's-Eye

New member
Back in the 1990's, Lucas's legal counsel was to take a hard line with "fan fiction". Remember all those websites that were shut down? By the time the SW Special Editions came out, Lucasfilm has eased its grip on copyrighted material, to the point of sponsoring an annual fan-film contest.

A few points to note:

1. There's really no way Lucas personally read your script - it just doesn't happen. Whatever angle the legal department at Lucasfilm pursued, it would be fatal for someone in his position to read an unsolicited manuscript based on a copyrighted character. Believe me - he has a huge firewall of employees and lawyers that would stop such material from ever reaching his eyes, or even getting close, for his own protection.

2. Lucas didn't work on the KotCS script - Spielberg did, with David Koepp. It was their script, and Koepp was on the set revising it throughout the shooting. If you have an issue, it is with Koepp.

I'm not saying it's a bad script (I haven't read it), but I don't think Lucas read it. Case in point, back in 1994 when I was young and lacked confidence in my own ideas, I submitted a proposal for a series of books based on the movie "Willow" to Bantam. In my case, I got a polite reply that Lucas was already working on a project like that, and that it would be legally impossible to show the proposal to him or anyone at Lucasfilm anyway. When the first "Shadow War" book came out, I noticed that the authors (GL & Chris Claremont) shared a several ideas of mine. But I believe what Bantam told me - I'm sure neither of them ever saw my proposal.

Hope that helps a little.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Wow, all the great feedback...

Too bad I didn't get this kind of feedback 12 years ago... ;)

Moedred - I think I have email from Lucas lawyers somewhere... I still have the old agreement somewhere as well... I'll have to dig them out... yeah, Sunshine is a real crusader these days...

Peacock - I agree... most likely Koepp read my script when it was part of the slush pile... you're right about the website shutdowns too... today fansites are encouraged... I suppose Lucas finally woke up to the fact that it only serves him to keep his products in the minds of the populace...

I think Lucas stopped being a filmmaker a long, long time ago...
 

agentsands77

New member
Peacock's-Eye said:
2. Lucas didn't work on the KotCS script - Spielberg did, with David Koepp. It was their script, and Koepp was on the set revising it throughout the shooting. If you have an issue, it is with Koepp.
Not quite true. The Complete Making of Indiana Jones notes that Lucas turned in a rewrite of Darabont's script, called INDIANA JONES AND THE PHANTOM CITY OF THE GODS, which was the draft before Nathanson stepped in. And Lucas was always involved with the script's progress from the beginning of INDY IV to the end, giving his opinion and ideas.
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
Peacock - I agree... most likely Koepp read my script when it was part of the slush pile...
In keeping with Peacock's post, I highly doubt Koepp ever read your script, either. I find it almost impossible to believe that anyone at Lucasfilm would let your script fall into the INDY IV "slush pile."
 

Peacock's-Eye

New member
>>I think Lucas stopped being a filmmaker a long, long time ago...<<
I disagree with that. He's as creative as ever, he's just lost his focus and flare as a director. The same happened to Walt Disney. But Walt produced some great stuff, like Treasure Island, Kidnapped and the Fess Parker "Davy Crockett" series - those were all great & Walt worked only as executive producer & script supervisor. But like Lucas, he was creatively involved & still doing good work. Young Indy & the Prequels are filled with exciting, new, cinematic ideas. It's just that the 'center' has shifted.

I'm not sure Koepp would have seen the script either - I think unsolicited manuscripts go straight to the legal dept. or something like that. Compare Koepp's script for the "The Shadow" with "Batman Begins" - many. many similarities. But I don't think anyone stole from Koepp.

Lucas & the script: Yeah, I can see that. And he did bring the Crystal Skulls into it. But I don't think he was ever seriously considered as the official Indy4 screenwriter.
 

agentsands77

New member
Peacock's-Eye said:
Lucas & the script: Yeah, I can see that. And he did bring the Crystal Skulls into it. But I don't think he was ever seriously considered as the official Indy4 screenwriter.
Sure. But he did get the story credit, and I think it's made pretty clear in the information we have about the production that it was Lucas' guiding hand that really formed the story of INDY IV.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Who knows...

Agent - all good points... but the nods to SOD are hard to ignore... you've got a mound of sand as the opening match dissolve, opposed to what was the traditional motif, mountains. Why the change? And why a mound of sand? What? To justify the gofers... which were too cutesy and had no place in an Indy film... I think somebody was watching Caddyshack and thought it would be fun... I was waiting for Bill Murray to make a cameo... what a silly movie. I really wanted to like it... but it had none of the magic found in the trilogy... okay, I suppose you could argue that it's all nostalgia on my part... but I would disagree... the trilogy (in particular Raiders) is well crafted and clearly the work of filmmakers with vision and passion... but KOTCS falls flat for me and misses all the beats.

Here's my guess... over the years Lucas relaxed a bit and came to appreciate my script and paid tribute to it because I was the first to really get under his skin... but... who knows.
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
Agent - all good points... but the nods to SOD are hard to ignore... you've got a mound of sand as the opening match dissolve, opposed to what was the traditional motif, mountains. Why the change?
Well, I actually think the change was there to subvert audience expectations and toy with the formula. Expect a mountain? No... it's a prairie dog mound. It's a wink-and-nod.

Frankly, I'd thought of the whole match-dissolve to a mound of sand even before I'd read your SONS OF DARKNESS way back when. It's not at all that shockingly original.

Rob Smith said:
Here's my guess... over the years Lucas relaxed a bit and came to appreciate my script and paid tribute to it because I was the first to really get under his skin... but... who knows.
Again, I think it's only logical to believe that Lucas and anyone involved in INDY IV never touched your screenplay. And the idea of Lucas actually paying tribute to your screenplay just doesn't compute.
 

Rob Smith

New member
It's a free world...

and you're entitled to your opinion mate... ;)

But... how do you explain away the skull resurrection scene? It's my script exactly. Coincidence? What are the odds? Both stories have a dead "alien" resurrected by the return of its skull... as far as I know, Saucer Men From Mars never used this concept... so what's the answer?
 

Peacock's-Eye

New member
>>so what's the answer?<<
It's called a coincidence. Every year thousands of people think the same thing, but it is almost impossible to prove. Very few of such lawsuits are ever decided in favor of the writer.

I mean, the first novel I ever wrote, when I was 18 (1990), was called "The Matrix". It took place in the future, after a war between humans and A.I. - the machines won the war, and humans were reduced to savages. The hero was a messianic figure, half human and half machine. It ended with a truce between the A.I. race and the human race. I submitted that manuscript all over the place. It never got published, but in 1999...do I think that somehow my ideas were stolen? Not really - I took alot from Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, Frank Herbert and the "Terminator" (this was pre-T2!). My ideas weren't that original, probably why the novel was never published.

You should concentrate on writing something new - protecting it by registering it with the Writer's Guild - and move on. It's much healthier.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Also...

I read somewhere that Keopp sourced a number of Indy 4 drafts and the ones with Marion worked the best... now, how many actual drafts would have brought back Marion... it's a fanboy idea.

Hmm... and you thought of a mound of sand 13 years ago... that's impressive. ;)
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
But... how do you explain away the skull resurrection scene? It's my script exactly.
The concept is quite similar of course.

Rob Smith said:
Coincidence? What are the odds?
No idea what the odds are.

But it's pretty clear in THE COMPLETE MAKING OF INDIANA JONES that the starting point was their idea that a crystal skull was actually an alien skull. Once you've gotten there, and connecting it with the source material about Akakor from Karl Brugger (that the temple in Akakor contains hibernating aliens), I think the scenario in the movie actually follows from that pretty naturally, without any necessary theft from your own screenplay.
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
now, how many actual drafts would have brought back Marion... it's a fanboy idea.
A good number of them by the time Koepp stepped in, given THE COMPLETE MAKING OF INDIANA JONES. It seemed to be a popular idea throughout much of INDY IV's genesis, fanboyish though it may be. Heck, even SAUCER MEN has a lot of fanboyish stuff about it.

Rob Smith said:
Hmm... and you thought of a mound of sand 13 years ago... that's impressive. ;)
I did. I had some of my own fan-fiction stuff back in the day, including my own outline for an INDY IV I'd worked up. And this was before the SONS OF DARKNESS leaked on the net (which I remember quite vividly, including eagerly reading through the screenplay believing this was the real deal... ah, those were exciting times).
 
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Rob Smith

New member
Writing something new...

you're assuming a great deal there mate... I've spent nearly 20 years - and 20 screenplays - trying to crack this nut. I've come close half a dozen times now but something always killed the deal. 9 times out of 10 the financing fell through.

Getting my stuff read has been the biggest challenge by far. People hate to read in this business.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Keep in mind...

I think we should keep in mind that my script wasn't something I wrote and tucked away 12 years ago... it was distributed around the world, which is evident when you search for "Indiana Jones and the Sons of Darkness" - French sites, German sites, Chinese sites - it did the whole world tour over the years. So, with that kind of exposure, the similarities take on deeper meaning, don't you think? I mean... I'm not some crazy person stepping out from the shadows with my script and crying foul - my script is more popular than I am.

I think what I'm getting at is this... it isn't impossible that Lucas paid tribute for the simple fact that my script, in the end, did catch his eye, and he's been trying to plant seeds against my script since day one... a year after my screenplay was posted (mid 97) Lucas was telling foreign news that Indy would have a son, and later, that the skull was always the Mcguffin... yet Saucer Men From Mars has no sign of a skull... but... again... who knows.

Funny... I think we're seeing the birth of an urban legend. ;)
 

Peacock's-Eye

New member
>>Getting my stuff read has been the biggest challenge by far. People hate to read in this business.<<

I've been through the same thing.
But for me, instead of letting this stuff ruin my life, I just move on.

I had a Hollywood agent at one point, and something big fell through. I'd been working on it for 10 years, had professional artwork done, wrote 100 drafts etc. It went to Henson & Walden Media, all over the place. I thought I was so close - and nothing.

I've been submitting fiction since 1988 - and nothing has come from it. My last novel just went through three major publishers - all three editors, major figures in the publishing world, wanted the book. But the publishers said "no", they thought the book was too risky!

So I move on to something new. Dwelling on the past won't change it.
 

Rob Smith

New member
True...

it's a cut-throat biz, peacock... but no one is dwelling here... just looking for honest feedback... which I'm getting. So it's all good.
 
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