Sons of Darkness: 12 Years Later

Rob Smith

New member
Mate...

Seriously, I've been at this game 20 years now... I think I know a little bit about this business and what goes on in it... so c'mon... gimme a break. I'm impressed with your comments but I'm not interested in debating these points to death. Thank you for your feedback, and good luck with your own writing. :)
 

Violet

Moderator Emeritus
Rob Smith said:
compare the nuke scene in KOTCS with SOD - mine comes at the end (another little similarity). My nuke scene emphasizes the power and destructive force of an atomic weapon and becomes a REAL danger to Indy and the world. But the nuke scene in KOTCS was set up as a site-gag, or comic relief.

Sorry... but the new movie doesn't live up to its predecessors and Lucas and Spielberg - IMHO - forgot what excited them about the Indy character in the first place.

Yes, but.... SMFM happened in 1995 and had the Doomtown sequence (yeah, the fridge and rocketsled too and it was believe it or not, more serious in that version, Indy has a conversation about the A bomb with a general in the script). I have now pretty much read SoD. I do like the biblical take, but frankly I prefer the way Mutt was handled in the film, than 11 year old Abner. You've better off sueing the people who made Mummy Returns. They had an 11 year old in that, who did that kind of stuff. The script got better as it went along, but all the Abner staying over at Indy's and the way Indy treats him, I'm not quite sure about. Indy really quickly changes his mind about the kid, yeah I get the feeling sorry for him angle, but even so....

Marion isn't an alco either. Could you imagine how much Marion would have to drink before getting to that stage? As a Marion fan, I feel compelled to defend her by saying she did what she did in Nepal because that was a way of getting by. And if I know the Marion character well enough, I'd say she's too strong a woman to get herself that way. She may love Indy, but she has never let that sort of stuff get in her way. She spent 10 years in Nepal and got stronger for it and didn't break, so why break down now just because she's got no man?

In any case, yes I do agree that Lucas probably seeded some references from SoD, but there was a heck of a lot more in the case of SMFM.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Let's apply a little logic...

Firstly, the mound of sand... why does it exist?

Was it concocted to set up the prairie-dogs? Or were the prairie-dogs invented to justify the mound of sand? Naturally, Lucas wouldn't match dissolve to a mound of sand for the sake of a mound of sand... so he had to justify the mound with the prairie-dog addition.

In my script, the mound of sand was symbolic of Mt. Ararat and in keeping with the religious theme of my screenplay, and to further drive this home I have a child place a dried-out piece of wood on top to represent Noah's Ark. And that's how I justified the mound of sand in SOD.

So... did Lucas have a brainstorm one day and think how clever it would be to match dissolve to a prairie-dog mound because they're just so darn cute, or did he need to justify the mound when he decided to give SOD a nod?

Secondly, there is another possible reason for the mound of sand in the new movie, and it occurred to me just after I finished my script in 95...that the mound of sand in SOD was MY nod to Lucas' and Spielberg's first Indy meeting on the beach in Hawaii in the 70s.

With that new information, the mound of sand could very well be Lucas paying homage to their first meeting on the beach. But if that were the case... then why not match dissolve to a sand castle/mound, which could easily have been incorporated into the American Graffiti-style opening sequence...?

Furthermore, the alien resurrection scene can't be simply coincidence -- and yes I know so many here have said it is -- but you haven't convinced me yet.

So once again I find myself back at the beginning... and wondering... is the mound of sand a nod to SOD?
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
Was it concocted to set up the prairie-dogs? Or were the prairie-dogs invented to justify the mound of sand?
The former, I believe.

Rob Smith said:
Furthermore, the alien resurrection scene can't be simply coincidence -- and yes I know so many here have said it is -- but you haven't convinced me yet.
Well, now that we have the Darabont draft, we can clearly see the origins of the "alien resurrection" scene. And its origins are different enough from your draft that I think it demonstrates that Lucas wasn't raiding your script. At least during that scene.
 

Rob Smith

New member
agentsands77 said:
The former, I believe.


Well, now that we have the Darabont draft, we can clearly see the origins of the "alien resurrection" scene. And its origins are different enough from your draft that I think it demonstrates that Lucas wasn't raiding your script. At least during that scene.

Was the Darabont draft leaked recently? Where is it? And what does Darabont's draft have to do with my script written 13 years ago? Darabont could have easily read my script if it was source material during the writing of his script. This isn't about what came first, the chicken or the egg... the alien resurrection scene mimics my Unclean Son resurrection scene. The Unclean Son resurrection scene was first - written 13 years ago. So... I don't think it demonstrates anything other than Darabont wrote the alien resurrection scene.
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
Was the Darabont draft leaked recently? Where is it?
Check the KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL thread.

Rob Smith said:
And what does Darabont's draft have to do with my script written 13 years ago?
Read it. The alien resurrection scene in Darabont's draft isn't anything like yours, but it still plants the seeds for how it would later evolve in Koepp's final form. So much so, that there doesn't have to be any involvement from SONS OF DARKNESS to explain away the similarities in the finished product... it could just have naturally evolved out of what Darabont wrote.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Good point...

But it could have naturally evolved out of what I wrote as well... and we're not talking about just a scene here, but actions within the scene. I understand your point... but there's still nothing saying my script wasn't sourced over the years, and remnants remain in the final product. Clutching at straws perhaps... but I'm still not convinced.
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
I understand your point... but there's still nothing saying my script wasn't sourced over the years, and remnants remain in the final product.
Actually, there's plenty suggesting your script would never have been involved in any sourcing whatsoever. Largely because of legal issues. There's no real reason to believe it was read by anyone other than Lucasfilm's legal division.

Rob Smith said:
Clutching at straws perhaps... but I'm still not convinced.
There's no real reason to believe it *was* sourced. So the burden of proof is on you, and so far, you've provided nothing other than improbable speculation.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Roundabout...

Your points are just as speculative as mine, because they are assumptions on your part. There's no hard and fast evidence that the only people to have read SOD were Lucas' legal team -- that is your assumption based on no real evidence other than what you believe. I know for a fact that the lawyer I spoke with did read the script because he told me he did, just to verify its contents. And who's to say that my script wasn't re-examined once the dust settled? Or years later?

Sorry... still not convinced.
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
Your points are just as speculative as mine, because they are assumptions on your part.
But they're logical assumptions to make.

Rob Smith said:
There's no hard and fast evidence that the only people to have read SOD were Lucas' legal team -- that is your assumption based on no real evidence other than what you believe.
It's based on evidence on how these kinds of situations work. Any lawyer worth their salt, as Lucas would have had, would have clearly advised Lucas not to read your script because of the potential entanglements.

Rob Smith said:
I know for a fact that the lawyer I spoke with did read the script because he told me he did, just to verify its contents.
Well sure. It's obvious the legal team would examine it. That's their job.

Rob Smith said:
And who's to say that my script wasn't re-examined once the dust settled? Or years later?
Because of the legal problems involved, which would still be present years later.

And I highly doubt there would be any interest once the dust settled. I doubt Lucas would ever give a damn about a fan script, no matter how big the phenomenon was. It's wishful thinking indeed to think that SONS OF DARKNESS ever really caught GL's attention to begin with beyond a few memos from his legal division.

Rob Smith said:
Sorry... still not convinced.
It's not my job to convince you. I'm not making the positive statement. The burden of proof is on you. Why on earth would Lucas have read your script?
 
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Rob Smith

New member
Fair enough...

and your logic is sound... but I gotta go with my gut on this. It could be all wishful thinking as you say... but stranger things have happened. And until Lucas says either way, it's all speculation, theory, or delusions of grandeur on my part.

Food for thought. Thanks for the logical rebuttal.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Darabont script...

where the heck is it?

I looked through the KOTCS thread -- but it's like wading through an ocean of words. Can someone please point me in the right direction? Grassyass.
 

Rob Smith

New member
Play-by-play?

Agentsands logical assumptions aside for the time being, let?s look at the facts:

1) Rob Smith (me) sat down to write SOD in early 1995, inspired by a vivid Indy dream, and my love affair with the trilogy.
2) I finished SOD in record time (7 days), and basically had a working draft to expand on.
3) In late 1995, I completed the first draft and managed to procure a local agent, but he later decided not to assist me in my quest for the gold.
4) Somewhat desperate, I concoct a publicity stunt, and in May of 1996, ?Indiana Jones and the Sons of Darkness" hits the Internet. News of it spreads rabidly throughout Indydom and cyberspace.
5) Word of the official Indy 4 screenplay -- stolen from Lucasfilm by a nefarious courier and posted on the Internet -- reaches Skywalker Ranch and the legal team goes on red alert.
6) Robert Smith receives the first cease-and-desist order days after the posting (hey, lawyers don?t frak around). But not satisfied yet, he moves the script to another website and continues the good fight against the legal machine.
7) Almost a half-dozen cease-and-desist orders later, Robert Smith finally pulls the plug. Satisfied he has their full attention.
8) Legal documents arrive at the Smith household. These documents inform me that Lucasfilm will agree not to sue me in exchange for the rights to my screenplay. I seek legal help and later refuse to sign over the rights and wait for the other side to return my serve.
9) Months later it?s old news and one final follow-up call from Lucasfilm, asking me to please sign the agreement and return it promptly, is once again met by polite resistance from me. Eventually, it ends in a stalemate and everybody leaves the sand box and goes home.

Now, at last, back to Agentsands and his question, ?Why on Earth would Lucas have read your script??

Wouldn?t you? In fact, you did. I mean? wasn?t my crazy misadventure itself something to notice? It grabbed the attention of thousands ? maybe even tens of thousands. The first of its kind really.

Furthermore, I don?t recall Lucas ever trying to control the rights to the flood of Indy 4 fanfic scripts which followed in the wake of SOD.

It?s also a logical assumption that SOD haunted Lucas for 12 years, in that he was forced to deflect, dismiss, or down-play SOD to the media. Do you recall his AOL message, denouncing SOD as copyright-infringing fanfiction? Then, for years after my stunt, webmedia and even some print media were still abuzz with speculation about the scripts authenticity. So Lucas found himself sort of ?cleaning up? after SOD, which tends to leave an impression. Am I wrong?

Agentsands? let me ask you this? do you think Lucas read that guy?s Star Wars treatment? I bet he did, and I also bet his crack team of high-priced lawyers advised against it.

And didn?t Lucas eventually acknowledge that Star Wars guy and his treatment? And with great humility? that stunt was no where near as flamboyant as mine.

So? while I love your logical ways Agentsands? I?m still not convinced.
 

CasualJeff

New member
It's important to note that Lucasfilm does not always equal Lucas. Corporate lawyers send cease and desist letters to tons of websites every day(often with no rhyme or reason). It doesn't mean that Lucas himself is checking these sites out.
 

agentsands77

New member
Rob Smith said:
I’m still not convinced.
Well, I'm quite convinced this no longer has anything to do with convincing. You simply want to believe that Lucas would have paid attention to your script (and that it subsequently influenced INDY IV), and will go on believing it even if there isn't much rational reason to believe as such.

Unfortunately, SONS OF DARKNESS wasn't all that. SONS OF DARKNESS was a flash in the pan, but it was not an internet phenomenon to end all internet phenomena, and for that reason, I'm highly skeptical that Lucas had anything other than a dismissive attitude towards it.

CasualJeff said:
It's important to note that Lucasfilm does not always equal Lucas. Corporate lawyers send cease and desist letters to tons of websites every day(often with no rhyme or reason). It doesn't mean that Lucas himself is checking these sites out.
Quite right. And in this case, Lucas might have been informed by his legal division, but I highly doubt he was bothering to check out the work of a fan. Heck, the only reason people were reading it is because they thought it was legitimate. Why would Lucas read something that he knew to be a forgery?
 
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G-Man

New member
I kinda knew it was fan fiction from the opening logo dissolve... er... and what d'ya know they did the same thing in the real movie! That showed me...

But seriously Rob, I'm half way through re-reading it. Lots I like, Indy & Marion exchanges seem right to me, I believe Marion as an alkie, but then I don't love Marion the way Violet does, some I think is off for an Indy movie, specifically the amount of time Indy is off screen. When you look at all the Indy movies the story focus is Indy, there are the odd 2-3 min scenes which focus on other characters (Marion drinking scene, Marion and Belloq in the tent, Opening musical number in Temple, Donovan getting telegram from Germany, etc) but in your script there are whole sequences which focus on the other elements of the story, Abner on his adventures, the back story with the Russian dude, the whole opening with the kid and the goat, to me this felt off. The opening sequence should start when Indy gets off the plane...

Just my thoughts...
 
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