Gypsy's Kiss

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
And there you said the cliché you fell in.

Actually, there are two of them. The first is a general assumption, and you made it even more clearer by giving us an opposite reflection. In the beginning, you showed us Indiana Jones with one of his girlfriends around the world, and gave us the expression that Jones was just looking for some fun, not being serious with her.

As with Vadoma, you might have as well bolded, underlined and written in it italics and couldn't have made it any more clearer that Indy's found the girl of his life... biiig mistake. Since as we all know, Indiana Jones is a very classic archtype of a hero and we will never ever see him ending up with together in the very final way. (At least not in that point of his life, though I would not be surprised if he actually had someone in Indy IV.)

And the second one, which you just also gave away, you obviously thought that it was an unique way to end the story. Nearly every writer who kills off the girl in the end thinks they have created something revolutionary, while in the reality, that truly is out of this handbook called "Cheesy Endings for Dummies", if you get what I mean. Of course, the reason for this everybody thinks that killing the love interest in the end may be a result of watching too many Bond films since in the end of those, 007 always gets the girl.

Okay, now one may wonder if the girl living in the end is a cliché and the girl dying at the end is a cliché, then what is not?
To be honest, none of them are clichés if the story is built in the way reader doesn't get any hints about how it might be... something in what you Monkey man failed miserably.

You slightly took your readers as simpletons in other cases too, by the way. You tend to underline the current emphasis in a scene overly too much to make clearly out that now they're excited, now the athmosphere is threatening, now they're relaxing, etcetera. While this, of course can bring a writer to the core sources of using good metaphors, it's also an insult towards the reader's intelligence.

But as I said, good work. You'll have to work out keeping the plot flowing more smoothly and get rid of writing so much out-of-place scenes, but as usual, the journey around the world starts with taking the first step. And more steps you take, more determined and secure your gait will become.
 

monkey

Guest
But how do you really feel Finn?

Thanks? .........I guess, for this critique.

I see what you're saying Finn, but.........ouch!

One thing though, I never meant to insult the readers' intelligence. I may have done so inadvertantly, I apologize.

Cheesy endings for dummies??? Hmmmm, I disagree there. I kind of liked my ending. And I don't think I foretold it in the story anywhere. I think there were lots of alternative endings that could have happened. But that's just me. Others may agree with you.

But it is interesting that you bring up that earlier girlfriend in South America. She was a brief, but very important character for me. She helped to define MY concept of Indiana Jones. I have always thought the playboy aspect of Jones' character has been too much understated. He IS a playboy, and has girlfriends all over the world, but as he is getting older, he is somewhat troubled by that fact.

As for the main female character, Vadoma, being the girl of his dreams, she wasn't supposed to come across that way. I must have botched that because I wanted Jones to be attracted to her for two reasons, one, she was HOT to look at, and two, she was intriguing, interesting, and a woman in trouble.

In my concept of Indiana Jones he is a playboy, but a chivalrous playboy. (Kind of like me)

Actually I wanted Jones to fall in love with Vadoma gradually, but not necessarily fall any more in love with her than with Lupe down in South America, or any of his other many girlfriends.

You are a very astute and knowledgeable reader Finn. I want to thank you for your extremely helpful critiques. Despite my "ouch" I still appreciate it.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
If you didn't foretell it anywhere, then how was I able to be so damn sure about it? ;) (Think about that.)

And another thing about the ending... killing Vadoma off was the only way to end the story, so in that case you did a good job. There was no other solutions to bring this story to a sensible end. Actually, if we look at things that led to the ending, I'd say that even Elsa had a bigger chance to see LC's credits than Vadoma living past "The End" in GK.

And you didn't really have to tell me that you weren't supposed to insult the reader's intelligence, no writer does that consciously (except in some cases of satire and parody), so no hard feelings about that.

And for cheesiness & stuff in some scenes, I guess they were supposed to be there. This was a classic adventure serial and it actually helped to create the athmosphere more closer to that, cliffhangers an'all. This is the stuff in thin cheap paperback bookies people buy from paper stands.

But if you dream about writing an actual novel, Monkey man... I'll tell you one thing.

If I ever, ever order a hardback copy off eBay with $39.90 and it's written like this one, I'm marching right up to the writer and tell him I've been robbed.

<small>You know, I've been here talking big words and I have absolutely no proof that my skill in writing is any higher than our fabulous serial author's here... Hmm, p'haps I should try writing my own story?</small>
 
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monkey

Guest
If anybody ever charged you $39 for GK, then I myself would be a witness to the crime.

I think I pretty much get everything you're saying Finn. And you're right about the 'cheese'. A lot of the cheese was intentional. I tried to give it a 1930's Adventure Serial feel, and that recipe often calls for some gouda and gorganzolla.

I have a few ideas for other novels (NOT IJ). These, if written, will be done in a totally different style that hopefully will be worth.............well, maybe 39 cents, if not 39 dollars.

By the way, you hint at the possibility of maybe writing an IJ fiction???

That would be great! Interested in a collaborator?
 

Canyon

Well-known member
Finn, your posts on this topic are interesting to read, but I can't help think but feel that you're being a little bit harsh about Monkey's story.

Okay, I'll be honest with you. I kinda guessed what happens to Vadoma many chapters before I read it, but apart from that, I feel that was the only cliché as far as I could see. And as for pacing, I certainly didn't think that there was a problem.

And as for insulting the readers intelligence, I certainly don't think that Monkey was doing that subconsciously or consciously.

I'm honestly not trying to be a pain, and you are certainly entitiled to your opinion, but I just felt that you were a little bit overcritical.

No hard feelings I hope. ;)
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Canyon - As I've said here I liked GK very much, and I admitted that in the frames it was published, it was more than fitting piece... and if I didn't get it completely wrong, Monkey got my meaning here too. It's a great piece of amateur fiction... and if you read the topic from very beginning you notice that Monkey man here actually thought about letting someone re-read it and tell him what prevents it from being "professional" fiction. And this is the job I'm doing here, using those skills I've learnt about storywriting to tell him my views about what should be honed in GK to make it look even better than what it is now. And even now, it's one great piece. My apologies, if I didn't make this clear enough.

Monkey - To be honest, there has been this certain plot idea that had span around my mind for some time now... one that I, when I say it rather honestly, think that it would have some potential if even turned to from simple thoughts to a written form.

But usually the things are the biggest obstacles on my way when writing a story is that I can think of a great storyline and the major events from the beginning to the end and the themes the story is going to deal with, but when it comes to close-to-earth events you're supposed to handle and enlighten the story with, it all, if does not start to collapse, but at least slows down the process pretty good deal.

And this is, I admit, the thing that could make one interested about a partner in crime, even though that means the credit has to be shared (with what I personally have no problem with). It's just that finding a good collaborator can be a pain. Many have enthusiasm, but lack greatly in the fields that closer to the process of writing itself. But if I get this ball (or should we say boulder?) rolling, I could actually give it a shot in the form of team work, since the fellow offering his helping hand has some helluva credentials, with 53 chapters.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Hmm... sure thing, why not? I'd be rather interested to see too if we could work out anything even as remotely good as GK.

Drop me a PM (or email or whatever) about what you need to know to let the boulder roll and we'll talk.
 
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Indyologist

Well-known member
monkey said:
Thanks Indyologist. Sorry about that rather graphic ending. I hope it didn't throw you, or any of the readers too much. If so I apologize. It wasn't meant to be brutal or disturbing in anyway. In fact it was meant to be rather the opposite of those things.

I think I was trying to make some kind of a point about the transitory and impermanent nature of life; of the flesh, versus the immortal and eternal nature of the human spirit.

That's no problem, Monkey. You did a great job. I figured that Vadoma would die-- it was the only cure for her deadly "kiss." It was a mite graphic and more than a little sad. I think I would have had Indy just bury her in some kind of gypsy tradition, if they DO bury their dead and don't creamate them. I'm a writer too, so I appreciate your symbolism regarding the human spirit. Maybe, as I said earlier, you could have done some research into gypsy traditions/rituals involving death/funeral rites. That would have been interesting.

Still, great job!
 

monkey

Guest
Thanks again Indyologist,
Your comments and suggestions are very nice, and very helpful.

One of the things that GK suffered from was my inability to put as much time as I should have into research. But that was a function of two things.

First of all, I was working full time the whole time writing it. Sometimes, as you probably well know, it is tough to squeeze writing time into your daily schedule.

Secondly, I foolishly compounded the first problem by my own impatience and overenthusiasm. I got so darned excited about writing it and putting it out there that I sent it in to the site before it was even half finished. I'll never, EVER, do that again. Because then I was faced with a deadline to get the chapters out. What I haven't divulged until now is that there were times when I was only two or three chapters ahead of the posted chapter. That was kind of stressful, and led to me taking some shortcuts.

Lesson learned: Don't post anything until it's DONE!!

But just to comment on the cremation scene again for a moment, another aspect of that was that the followers of Pharaoh Akhenaton's religion of the Aten (which was one of the main archaeological themes of the story) rejected the funerary practices of the Amun priests, and believed that cremation was the only true way to release a person's Ka; their spirit. I think I was trying to somehow incorporate that into the scene.

(...........I say 'think' because half the time I didn't even really know what the hell I was thinking.)

Thanks again Indyologist for your nice comments. I very much appreciate it.
 

monkey

Guest
Fascinating web page Indyologist.

The Gypsies and their history are truly very unique and interesting.
 

Indyologist

Well-known member
monkey said:
Fascinating web page Indyologist.

The Gypsies and their history are truly very unique and interesting.

I know this is OT, but I'm Hungarian so probably some of my ancestors were gypsies.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Indyologist... how well you know the origins of Hungarians?

Honestly, I'm not fooling you here, but if you have Hungarian blood, you're probably more closely related to Finns than the gypsies. Wanna know more?
 

Indyologist

Well-known member
Finn said:
Indyologist... how well you know the origins of Hungarians?

Honestly, I'm not fooling you here, but if you have Hungarian blood, you're probably more closely related to Finns than the gypsies. Wanna know more?


Sure, you can tell me more, Finn. If you want to PM me so we don't get OT, that's fine.

Well, I've got a Hungarian double-whammy on my dad's side. Both his mom and dad were Hungarian (Feher). I've been told by people that I look kind of Slavic. My brother has narrow eyes like the Slavs do. I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily.

My mom's dad was Irish (Sheridan) and her mom was Polish (Grabowski). My aunt visited my relatives in Hungary in 1950 or so. They were farmers, pretty much. I guess Hungarian gypsies are probably a stereotype. I wonder though, because I had an old, old aunt (my dad's sister-in-law) who could predict the future of her loved ones down to a "T." If that doesn't sound like gypsy stuff, then I don't know what is!
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Well, this is a lengthy explanation, but I guess a little history lesson hurts no one, since this is actually civilizing, and could be counted under "topic progression".

About the origins of the Hungarians, the only thing known with certainty is that they are related to the Finns, and their language belongs to the so-called Fenno-Ugrian language family, together with that of the Vogul and Ostyak peoples of the northern Urals and the Fenno-Baltic people living around the Eastern parts of the Baltic Sea. With the distant Finns as their only cousins, the Hungarians have no linguistic ties with their neighbours.

When it comes to actual blood relation, about 50% of their original genes the Hungarians are being the same stuff with Finns. It is assumed that somewhere deep East, there where the river Volga flows lived a bunch of people speaking language that would form itself into both Finnish and Hungarian. They started to head west, in some point separating so that the part of them went more northwards while the rest of them bent their route south. Respectively, they ended up on those quarters where you nowadays can find Finland and Hungary on the map. The genes of both people have heavily mixed though. As I said, they share 50% of the same blood relation. With the Hungarians, the other half comes mostly from the people living in Slavic areas and Balkan, while those of the core people who headed north eventually mixed up with the Scandinavian and Western European blood - and thus became Finns. Story told.

So, to simplify a bit:
Code:
                            Ugrian ancestors
                            I            I
                            I            I
headed:                   south        north
                            I            I
                            I            I
mixed blood:             Slavics   Scandinavians
                            I            I 
                            I            I
to become:              Hungarians     Finns

So as proven here, the Hungarians and the Finns share de facto more blood relation than the Hungarians and the gypsies. Actually the amount of gypsy blood is not that great with Hungarians at all since as we know, they originated from near India and didn't actually arrive Europe before the "Ugrian people from East" (still haven't figured out a better callname for them) had gained some genes from the Slavics to establish the base Hungarian gene pool.

And of course, when I talk about "moving west", don't think about a bunch of people packing up their things and possibly taking a month or two to find a new place to dwell, it took centuries, maybe millennias. Actually, the Hungarians most likely first set their dwellings near the south end of the Ural mountains, where they were driven away by the ancestors of the Russians estimately sometime in the early Christian era.

Of course, there are other theories about the origin of the Hungarian people, but I told you the most commonly supported one. None of these different theories, however, deny the blood bond shared by the Hungarians and the Finns.

Interesting, huh?
 

monkey

Guest
Dark Women!

"I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily."

GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Sounds like you're my kind of girl Indyologist!!

Hey Finn,
Very interesting history lesson, and it's definitely not OT. Very much topic progression. I found it to be fascinating. I had actually heard some vague details of the connection of the Finns and their language with that of some of the Eastern European peoples, but nothing specific like you talk about. I know that the Finnish language is quite different from the other Scandinavian languages.
 

monkey

Guest
Indyologist said:
I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily.

The previous post was supposed to be a "quote", but something messes up every time I try to do a quote.

Sorry
 

Canyon

Well-known member
Re: Dark Women!

monkey said:
"I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily."

GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Sounds like you're my kind of girl Indyologist!!

Hey, Monkey!

I've got dark hair and dark eyes too! ;)
 

monkey

Guest
.............Canyon, not only do you have pretty dark eyes and lovely, wavy dark hair, but you also have a beautiful complexion to match.

You and Indyologist are both my kind of girls!!!...........................

(Monkey slips into a naughty daydream......) ; )
 
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