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Old 10-20-2005, 09:08 AM   #76
Pale Horse
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Are there any theologians here who are dismissing the Bible? I know that Clinton and Rick probably fall into the category of those who have actually read the book, and are therefore qualified to question any or all of it.

The rest of you dismiss it and it's content because you have no capacity to actually discipline yourselves to better who you are by reading someone elses writings (whether you agree with it or not) and actually forming an intelligent thought about what you read.

To prove my point, what is the book of Ruth about? Can anyone tell me the historical significance of the minor prophets as it realtes to the timeline of the Jews and the land of Isreal? How are the book of Daniel and Ezekiel related? These are far simplier things to discuss and actually have a real-world application for what is happening today in the middle east, (especially when you consider that there is an entire nation whose history is summed up in the context of the Bible) and yet, none of our Bible dismissing scholars here would be able to take that knowledge and use it in a global business setting because they think it (the Bible) as a farse.

"It can't be legit because I can't wrap my finite mind around it." This is such a powerful arguement. Wow, so martial art's don't work because you can't tell me the sound of one hand clapping? Just because something is incomprehendable, doesn't mean it isn't true. Just as many have said there are "stories" in the Bible that can't be proved, no one can prove them fasle, either. Hence the arguement of faith that was touched on earlier. Now I know I will take flak for this, for I am being too fundamental, but there are some here that think nothing of p***ing on another mans faith. To me that's an outright insult. You want to discuss differences in opinion about sensitive issues, then take a page from the example of Rick. Form a well thought out response and challenge your audience with an actual statement. I'll even take the cynicism of a Clinton Hammond because he doesn't insult people. But if you are going to continue to participate in this thread, take the above to heed.

As for the Church (and by that I mean the Catholic Chruch), we have to be careful we don't lump the sins of the church into the teaching of the Bible. The abuse of alter boys is a horrid scar that hides the true ethics and moral found inside it's covers. That is one reason that Freemasonry has facinated me so. As part of it's foundation, there is a contempt of the church as a religious institution, for all of it's money and misused power. I know there are Catholic's here so I will wait for some comments from them before continuing.

EDIT: Spelling
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Old 10-20-2005, 10:25 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
As for the Church (and by that I mean the Catholic Chruch), we have to be careful we don't lump the sins of the church into the teaching of the Bible. The abuse of alter boys is a horrid scar that hides the true ethics and moral found inside it's covers. That is one reason that Freemasonry has facinated me so. As part of it's foundation, there is a contempt of the church as a religious institution, for all of it's money and misused power. I know there are Catholic's here so I will wait for some comments from them before continuing.

Point taken.

I was trying to make an argument that if the people who are supposed to be passing the word of God to others cannot follow the basic principles and values of the Bible, how can they seriously expect us to? The "Do as I say, not as I do" attitude may work in a parent/child relationship, but holds little value in a peer-to-peer setting.

If your stockbroker told you to invest your money in a specific stock and then put his own cash elsewhere, it would raise your eyebrows, right? What does he know that he is not telling you?

There are people who are taking stories that our Bible borrowed from other cultures and treating them as fact. Some of us ask "why" or "how" when the rest just accept what they are told.

Someone of the caliber of a Catholic priest should know the consequences of his actions and especially his sins. Almost as literal a translation of "practice what you preach" as you can get. Yet more and more priests are becoming involved in this scandal. There has to be a reason for this. And why only Catholics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
...and yet, none of our Bible dismissing scholars here would be able to take that knowledge and use it in a global business setting because they think it (the Bible) as a farse.

While I do not fall into the category of "Bible-dismissing" there has to be a measure of common sense that one should practice. The Good Book has a lot to offer if you do not take the impossible stories and situations as literal. It very well be the most important book ever written. That does not make it fact though.

My problem is that I cannot understand how people can stick by some of the happenings in the Bible as being fact, even presented with evidence to the contrary. I think the article on Noah's Ark I linked above has some compelling arguments against the literal Bible story. Not to mention that with all the insects, how do you separate them into one male and one female? But you cannot take it literally.

Maybe there was a local flood. Maybe Noah built an ark and put two of each animal he could find on it. What is believed to be true may be a matter of perception. It may have seemed like the world flooded. At least Noah's world did.
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:25 AM   #78
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With the arrival of Pale Horse on the scene, I guess it's time for me to join the fray...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
As for the Church (and by that I mean the Catholic Chruch), we have to be careful we don't lump the sins of the church into the teaching of the Bible. The abuse of alter boys is a horrid scar that hides the true ethics and moral found inside it's covers. That is one reason that Freemasonry has facinated me so. As part of it's foundation, there is a contempt of the church as a religious institution, for all of it's money and misused power. I know there are Catholic's here so I will wait for some comments from them before continuing.

A quote comes to mind: “You who are without sin, cast the first stone.”

I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church doesn't have the corner on the market for abuses perpetrated by religions (not to mention governments or nations). I shall not enumerate, but I’m sure all of us can think of examples. If you look at the world from a Christian (Protestant or Catholic) standpoint, the fundamental starting point is the premise that man is a fallen creature. Whether you put any stock in the particulars of the account of the Garden of Eden or not, I think that we can agree (even those outside of Christian beliefs) that man has inclinations towards some pretty bad stuff.

So, if we start with the biblical starting point that nobody’s perfect, or, to put it in biblical terms: “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”... I don’t see why anybody should be truly shocked when an institution populated by human beings fails (and sometimes quite dramatically). I’m not saying that that makes it okay, or that we should tolerate depravity and hypocrisy from those who claim to be servants of God. What I am saying is that as long as human beings are involved, nothing will be perfect. Nothing. No religion, no philosophy, no government, no relationship, no enlightenment.

If you are steering clear of religion because you refuse to be part of something that isn’t perfect... you’ll never be a part of anything. Hell... you can’t even be by yourself.

I believe in the need for redemption. If we were capable of being perfect by our own power, we wouldn’t need saving. (Which is, last time I checked... a major theme in Christianity. )

Last edited by Deadlock : 10-20-2005 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 10-20-2005, 01:31 PM   #79
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A funny story, we were contacted by a group of catholics to do a charity dinner, they wanted to pay full ticket, which was about $200 a person less then we would charge, so they wanted us to donate $200 per person times 40 people. So we asked, what is the Chairty for, and they answered with a straight face, abused boys . . .

So we all tried to keep a straight face, that the Catholic Church, one of if not the richest religion in the world was asking a small family owned business to donate over $10,000 (this is the dinner plus some auction items) for abused boys that they probably abused int he first place . . .

yes I agree all the qualified people who read the bibles them abuse boys I think they are called priests, I recommend the episode of South Park called Red Hot Catholic Love for reference.


Pale, a preachy today I see. I will take my masters and disagree what I want to and i do not need to be told what i am qualified to disagree with, thank you
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Old 10-20-2005, 01:34 PM   #80
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So How about Evolution, I mean really the whole 7 days thing, I have issue with that, I like to think we are all from Apes, it is very comforting!
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Old 10-20-2005, 02:29 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
They HAVE to believe... cause if they don't believe that ONE story, it calls into question all the other stories in their book.... and if they have to question the stories in their book, they might have to start thinking for themselves...

I've read over this thread for a matter of days and now I'd briefly like to share my thoughts. First off, no one is forced to believe anything. God created all of us with free will and the ability to choose not only what we do but what we believe and how we feel as well. I believe the Bible because, simply put, that's what I believe. My parents, the pastor at church, friends, etc. didn't make up my mind for me. They were big influences on me, of course, but I made up my own mind about the Bible and what it says. I don't have to believe anything: I choose to. Some people only believe parts of the Bible, others think all or none of it to be true. Opinions will probably always vary on this topic, espeically when it comes to a book like The Holy Bible.

Second, I can't prove that Noah's Ark or the Great Flood occured. However, there is also no sound evidence to prove that it didn't happen either. I think we live in an age and culture where everything must be seen or touched to be believed and I'm amazed at how some people think of belief as a sign of denial or ignorance. Since I think that a story like Noah's Ark is true, I must be some sad, close-minded individual who takes everything literally and never listens to the other side of the argument. I have listened to the other side; it's just that they've failed to come up with anything to make me change my mind.

I'm not trying to come down on anyone's beliefs or opinions here. I just think there are some things we have to take on faith and trust that they happened. Personally, I believe every word of the Bible to be true (I'm sure I'm in for some heavy-duty flaming here but so be it) because that's simply how I feel and what I believe and, while I've heard all the arguments against it many times, it's not enough to make me think otherwise.
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Old 10-20-2005, 02:34 PM   #82
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Indy, I guess I'll say to you what you said to me in the "Have you ever noticed.." thread. I agree with your thoughts completely. Very well stated.
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Old 10-20-2005, 02:48 PM   #83
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"I believe the Bible because that's what I believe."
Sorry... in my book, that's a 'just because' answer (Mommy? Why is the sky blue? Just because hunny....) which is to say it's NO kind of answer at all...

If it works for you, good... but it sure don't work for me...

"there is also no sound evidence to prove that it didn't happen either"
Well, for one, that's not how proof works... but for two, ask any reputable geologist about the evidence that dismisses the idea that the globe was ever covered in water... He'll have a list as long as my.... ummm... arm... ya... arm! It is, at it's most basic level, a physical impossibility..... "Oh but 'god' can do anything!".... and that's another "just because" answer.... and I dismiss it....

"Since I think that a story like Noah's Ark is true, I must be some sad, close-minded individual"
I wouldn't say (And haven't said) that at all... but ill-educated, I might say...

"belief as a sign of denial or ignorance"
Depends what you are trying to accomplish with that belief.... if you're looking to adopt for yourself a 'code of conduct' of sorts to help you live your life in a way you think is better for yourself and those around you, then groovy.... But if you, for instance, want to try to tell me that, against all the tested and retested evidence we have for the age of our planet being in the billions of years, that your mythology says it's only 5000+ years old, then no... That I cannot accept... and in that case it is ignorance... it's denial of fact... and there's the difference... Mythology isn't fact... (Ask Dr Jones....)

"I just think there are some things we have to take on faith and trust that they happened."
Very dangerous path.... not one I'll chose to walk thanks... There are too many people selling things I don't need or want down that road.... Too many people waiting for my attention to slip for just a second so they can take me for everything I have... Too many people who want to tell me I'm on the wrong SIDE of the road and should be on their side... Too many people who want to do my thinking for me... And I don't see any good reason why I should allow that to happen.

If you want me to believe, you're gonna have to put it in my hand.... And even then, I might not trust it.... heh
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Old 10-20-2005, 03:39 PM   #84
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Wow, so martial art's don't work because you can't tell me the sound of one hand clapping?

So martial Arts will work if you tell me the sound of one hand clapping? Turst me I have seen the work, and seen them not work,it is the person. If you are trained in Martial arts, but have never been in a real fight, and you happen to confront a person who does not know Martial Arts and has been in many fights, I tell you who my monwy is on.

I think the violent reaction people have to support thier faith is one of the worst things in the world. If there really was the all knowing all seeing god, why in the hell would it let so many people kill each other in its name? Really please think about it. Where the hell has he and angles been inthe lest few thousand years? Are all that much better than the folks in the old and new testament that good ole' JC doesn't need to test us any more. I am a fan of doing and practicing just one thing:

Just try and live your life a little bit better everyday, and try to enrich others peoples lives. Don't live out of some fairy tale book, do what is right, be kind to animals and don't take **** from anyone. (that last part was a quote from one of my best friends fromt he USMC)
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:00 PM   #85
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"martial art's don't work because you can't tell me the sound of one hand clapping?"
You're confusing physics with philosophy.... (Ummm.. philosophy isn't the ideal word for what I'm after... I'll come back and edit it when I think of it....)

"live your life a little bit better"
"do what is right"
According to whom?
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:03 PM   #86
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Anybody watch House, MD? A great quote that the good doctor delivered. To a nun .

"You can have all the faith you want in spirits and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don’t be an idiot. ‘Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to get you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways."

Quote:
However, there is also no sound evidence to prove that it didn't happen either.

Be careful here though. That is how the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster got started. You will read that story and say it is preposterous, but you cannot prove it did not happen any more than we can prove that the Bible did not happen. That phrase in quotes is a double-edged sword.

That is where faith comes in. You must believe in the unbelievable, against all odds. (I am using the pronoun "you" in it's collective capacity, I am not singling anyone out.) Blind faith can have great rewards, but more often than not you are disappointed.

Try one thing for a few weeks. Rather than praise God for all the good that happens in your life and condemning yourself for the bad things, try giving God credit for all the things that happen - good or bad. After all, he is the ultimate deity who knows all and sees all. Blame God when the innocent baby dies addicted to crack, or the flood kills hundreds of people. Read the papers and watch the news. Then back up and look at your God from a new perspective. What is it that the insurance companies call the earthquakes, floods and hurricanes? Oh yeah, Acts of God.

While you are trying to be a good Christian and not lie, cheat, and steal - and every now and then you fight the urge to covet thy neighbors wife - your God is killing people with tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes and floods....some role model, huh?

Quote:
I must be some sad, close-minded individual who takes everything literally and never listens to the other side of the argument. I have listened to the other side; it's just that they've failed to come up with anything to make me change my mind.

Close-minded? Not at all! I will be glad to listen to anyone until the cows come home about religion. I love the topic and find it very interesting. I would tend to believe that those who can change their beliefs as they acquire new information are more open minded than those who simply believe without question. I have listened to the other opinions as well. They have also failed to come up with anything that can explain why they believe what they do. Besides faith that is.

Show me the proof and I can accept it, and will do so gladly. Until then, I am very open to any theories that are presented and will choose to believe the one that makes the most sense to me. We are not that disimilar, when you look at it that way.
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:09 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by roundshort
If there really was the all knowing all seeing god, why in the hell would it let so many people kill each other in its name?

Maybe it's not the all loving, peaceful god in which many believe.

Note: I don't believe this, but I'm just throwing it out there.
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:10 PM   #88
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nice post Rick, very very nice. I think we think a like.

On another note, how can anyone be so dense to have to ask to quaify live a better life, I mean is it that hard, always try to enrich your yourself, environment, and others, I mean, do you have ask do what is right, if that is the case we really are ******
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:46 PM   #89
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That you missed the point, kiddo surprises me not at all...

Point being, what might be right for you might not be right for me...
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:59 PM   #90
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subset to this thread

one hand clapping is the difference between philosophy and physics, I don't get it? Martial arts is a philosophical manifestation of morals and ethics, so is the faith of many Judeo Christian religions. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't see the arguement. To me, to understand the power of a martial art, you have to understand the thought that goes into it. Maybe this is a topic for another thread, something like how Eastern thought and Western thought are more similar than dissimilar...
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:31 PM   #91
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I just feel that religon is way to much trouble than it is worth. enough people have died beacuse of it so far. and religous people are so rightous, we believe in this thing so we are better thna you. I would miss all the Luke 3:10 signs at the ball games though
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Old 10-21-2005, 04:16 PM   #92
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Thanks for your post Rick5150. While we don't agree on this issue I'm glad we can still have a civil and thoughtful conversation on the subject and I look forward to talking to you more. However, I did want to comment on one of your quotes:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick5150
Try one thing for a few weeks. Rather than praise God for all the good that happens in your life and condemning yourself for the bad things, try giving God credit for all the things that happen - good or bad. After all, he is the ultimate deity who knows all and sees all. Blame God when the innocent baby dies addicted to crack, or the flood kills hundreds of people. Read the papers and watch the news. Then back up and look at your God from a new perspective. What is it that the insurance companies call the earthquakes, floods and hurricanes? Oh yeah, Acts of God.


That' s an interesting thought and I think all of us from time to time have been guilty of blaming God for something bad or unpleasant in our lives. However, I don't believe God causes these things to happen but rather allows them to happen. We are all born with free will and the ability to make our own choices and decisions. God isn't forcing terriorists to kill people, or natural disasters to occur or anything like that. God wouldn't be fair if He gave us free will and then stopped us from doing what we wanted (although He did state that there will be consequences for our actions). Let's go back to the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were given a clear choice between right and wrong. Whether you believe that story or not, I think we all know what happened. It was the same with Cain and Able.

I do believe that God is all-knowing and all-powerful and can do anything He wants. But before we accuse God I think we need to look at mankind and the decisions that we've made.
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Old 10-21-2005, 04:26 PM   #93
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When the major league baseball player wins a game, he thanks God for giving him the ability to play the way he does (and earn millions, I might add). How often to you hear one say "God made me drop the ball and lose the game!" I think that was form George Carlin, but I am not sure. Here are my own thoughts...

What I am saying is either take responsibility for your actions or give God the credit. But do not pick and choose. Surely, if you believe that God can see things coming and simply allows them to happen, he is very responsible. For instance?

You are a parent watching your child riding his tricylce at a playground. He begins pedalling toward the road aiming for a spot between two parked cars. You have an unobstructed view and can see that the cars block his view and if he continues, he will drive into the path of a very large truck moving at a speed that is too fast to stop in time. You ignoring the problem and allowing it to occur is just as bad as killing that child yourself. To me anyways.

Let me know when you are sick of my analogies and examples...

Rick

Quote:
But before we accuse God I think we need to look at mankind and the decisions that we've made.
This, I agree with 100%.

Everybody should take complete responsibility for their actions. Admit their mistakes and do the best they can to correct them when possible and not continue to repeat them. Do not blame McDonald's because you are a fat pig, and do not sue Dunkin' Donuts because you spilled hot coffee on your lap. Just because you humiliated yourself in public is no reason to point the finger at someone else.
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Old 10-21-2005, 04:38 PM   #94
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Once again 5150, is that in refernece to the under-rated van halen album? I agree with you 100% I feel that if religion makes you happy and comfortable,t hen fine go to chucrc read the bible havea ball, but as soon as you start pushing it on others you become a danger to mankind. Think of 9/11 when you really want to be a zealot.
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Old 10-21-2005, 08:20 PM   #95
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Hello guys. I have also read the boards for the last few days and will reply, briefly. I really do not understand why some on the boards are a little aggressive to those who believe in the Bible. Like I said before, I am a Christian and believe the stories of the Bible. Things in the Bible do not need a scientific answer to explain. I know I will get blasted for this but miracles do exist. The flood may be hard to believe, but God can make anything happen by His infinite power. Once again I am not a beliver who listens to my mommy or just any preacher in the pulpit. I study the Bible and other resources as well. I believe because of study, moves of God I have personally experienced and (oh my goodness!!) FAITH. It just amazes me to see that people can believe other historical documents which there are only a few hunderd copies of, and not believe any of the Bible which has thousands of copies of manuscripts. I wish some of you would actually open your minds and study the Bible and apply it to your lives; I truly feel that the Holy Spirit would work with you and bring the Word to life for you. If you do not want to try this, fine, salvation is not pushed on anyone. (I say this all with respect, but it does get a little annoying to see bashing everytime I come on the boards).
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Old 10-21-2005, 11:11 PM   #96
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" God can make anything happen by His infinite power."
Sorry... that's a 'just beause' answer... and I haven't accepted those since the 3rd grade...

"the Bible which has thousands of copies of manuscripts"
So just because it's well marketed, it's right? Bzzzt... sorry... Lord Of The Rings is well marketed too... doesn't make it something I'm gonna believe in...

You go right ahead, if you want to though...

"open your minds and study the Bible"
Have done... and the more I studied it, the more I came to see it as a worthless document... If it's worth more to you, you keep it....
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Old 10-21-2005, 11:32 PM   #97
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Just for the record, I never once mentioned that I was pushing my beliefs and views on others. I would never try to force my beliefs on anyone, but I did want to respond to a debate that I feel seems very one-sided and hostile towards those of us who believe "faith" is more than a fairy-tale. Not everyone here is acting that way but still there's no need to get ugly here and remember to attack the opinion, not the person.

Also, I don't have a "religion." Christianity (I'm not talking about a certain church or group, but the actual biblical definition) is about repentence of your sins and accepting Jesus as the Lord of you life, not about attending church X number of times or reciting a certain prayer every day.

indyt, thanks for echoing my thoughts. I'm glad there's someone else here for feels the same way.
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Old 10-22-2005, 07:46 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
Once again 5150, is that in refernece to the under-rated van halen album?

Oh yes. Of course, it was mostly downhill from there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by indyt
I really do not understand why some on the boards are a little aggressive to those who believe in the Bible.

I am not trying to be aggressive, just trying to offer you what you are trying to offer others. The "other side" of the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indyt
I wish some of you would actually open your minds and study the Bible and apply it to your lives

These are the types of comments that stir people up. Whether meant or not, I see this as you saying that because some do not believe what you believe, they are close-minded. I find that people who do not believe are more open to so many more options because they are not bound to the words of the Bible. They do not disallow anything just because the Bible may contradict that particular explanation. I do not mean that with disrespect, as if you choose to enrich your life in that manner, more power to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy
I would never try to force my beliefs on anyone, but I did want to respond to a debate that I feel seems very one-sided and hostile towards those of us who believe "faith" is more than a fairy-tale.

Faith is a good thing. We are comparing the Biblical stories to be fairy tales based on what we know now versus what was known when it was written. Nobody is taking this to a personal level.

Finally, I applaud those of you who believe in whatever you believe to make you better people than you were yesterday. I am not trying to change anyones mind about religion, just get my views out there and make them heard. That is what we are all here for, isn't it?

The reason that this debate is feeling one-sided is because EVERYBODY has an opinion, yet few seem to want to express it once it gets controversial. Religion is a difficult argument to make.

Heck, I thought we were doing pretty well here...
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Old 10-22-2005, 11:42 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick5150
Heck, I thought we were doing pretty well here...

Yes, one of the better discussions here, from both a mod and a member.
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Old 10-22-2005, 12:19 PM   #100
indyt
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Location: Under the Temple Mount
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[quote=Rick5150]

These are the types of comments that stir people up. Whether meant or not, I see this as you saying that because some do not believe what you believe, they are close-minded. I find that people who do not believe are more open to so many more options because they are not bound to the words of the Bible. They do not disallow anything just because the Bible may contradict that particular explanation. I do not mean that with disrespect, as if you choose to enrich your life in that manner, more power to you.

Let me clarify; when I said "open your mind", I actually meant not to close your mind when attempting to read the Bible. Sorry for the confusion. Alot of time people automatically close their minds when asked to read the Bible, as well as other historical, etc. documents. I have studied all of the major religions of the world, Hinduism, Buddhism, Kabbalah, Scientology, Taoism, Islam, Wicca, etc. with an open mind. My choice is to follow Christ. Thats MY choice, that does not mean I would force that on anyone. But that does not mean I cannot pray for those who do not believe or share the gospel with them.
For the record Rick 5150, when it comes to respect on these boards, I think you are #1 on the list, and I thank you for that.

QUOTE-Indy

"Also, I don't have a "religion." Christianity (I'm not talking about a certain church or group, but the actual biblical definition) is about repentence of your sins and accepting Jesus as the Lord of you life, not about attending church X number of times or reciting a certain prayer every day.
indyt, thanks for echoing my thoughts. I'm glad there's someone else here for feels the same way."



And as for you Indy, Halleluah for you. Thank you for YOUR support. It is good to know there is another warrior for Christ out there!! Your quote is GREAT!!
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