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Old 04-15-2003, 02:23 PM   #26
Tim
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It all depends what you want to go there for. Cambridge has always been thought of as the science institute, where as Oxford is the English, history type institute. If you choose to go to Med school I'd recommend Cambridge. But for archaeology I'd recommend Swansea. Best school in the world for archaeology!! With out a doubht.
Are you thinking of studying here in sunny ol' England?
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Old 04-15-2003, 05:53 PM   #27
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Yeah, I am, actually. The University that I am going to lets me study abroad for a semester to two years. There's a bunch of places that you can choose, but I have relatives in England, and I actually really enjoyed going there. And besides, its central enough that I can fly out of the country for a few days to visit other places. I think that I can pretty much pick where I want to go. The tuition is the same either way, I just loose my scholarships for that time period. Ill just take out loans, I guess. in regards to medical school or archeology... I will probably major in biomedicine with a minor in cultural or physical anthropology. I am not sure yet. I dont think that they will let me combine the archeology minor with the biomed. I will have to wait and see. I am really quite split with the decision though. I would love to go to Egypt and work there for the rest of my life, but again I will just have to wait and see how everything works out... What part of England are you from? Anywhere I've been? Oh, and here's another fun England question... Can you find Charles Dickens house? You'd be suprised how many people a block away from it had no clue what so ever! Anyways, I feel as though I am babbling on... and on... and on... And very off the subject of indy I might add. Have you ever seen teh movie the majestic with Jim Carrey? The idol used in the opening scenes of The Raiders of the Lost Ark, is used in a clip of a reproducation of an old movie that is shown in the Majestic and unless you really noticed it, you would never know that it was there... Well, I must go. Kwaheri! (Goodbye in swahili)
~Genevive
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Old 04-16-2003, 02:03 AM   #28
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No I'm affraid I've never seen that film, but I'll certainly keep me eyes peeled. Charles Dickens house is in Portsmouth, which is about a thirty minute drive from me. But I've never actually been there.
I've known a few American students that have done what your doing and they had a great time.
You don't have to be an archaeologist or have any archaeological training to get on a dig, you could be the medical or anthropological (blimey, ain't that long??!) specialist.
Let me know how things go.
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:18 PM   #29
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This is what I read.

Okay. I read a book about it and the theory was: Jesus was married to Maria-Magdalena and he got her pregnant. After the crucifying he an his wife fled to France. And that is where King Arthur enters the stage.

Maria-Magdalena carried the "blood" of Jesus, so she is the Grail. No kidding.



You'll find the book here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

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Old 04-21-2003, 04:35 PM   #30
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That has to be one of the craziest theories that I have ever heard.
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Old 04-21-2003, 07:26 PM   #31
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Um....no.

Let's just drop that theory right here and now.
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Old 04-22-2003, 04:40 AM   #32
Broomhandle Davis
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Where in the Bible...

...is there an inanimate object that gives the possessor a wonderous power?

Give me chapter and verse. I know of no such allusion.

Even the Ark of the Covenant is NOT described in that way, the way it is described in the flick. This stuff about religious relics and their mystical powers came centuries afterwards and could be described as left-handed idolatry.

I think Mark Twain or someone once said you could build a cathedral of two out of all the splinters of the True Cross.
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Old 05-01-2003, 01:05 PM   #33
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Actually, Solomon's son stole the Ark of the covenant and crossed the border to Bethshemesh with it. They were so inflicted with boils rashes and death that they brought it back to Solomon. But he had ordered a fake ark built so that people wouldn't revolt. So, the real Ark went missing...(Ethiopia?) And the FAKE was buried in Tanis...
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Old 05-01-2003, 01:06 PM   #34
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And what about the Horn of Jericho?
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Old 05-01-2003, 01:33 PM   #35
Broomhandle Davis
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Darn close

Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter
And what about the Horn of Jericho?

Good suggestion.

But, is it written anywhere that who possesses the horn of Jericho can make walls fall down? I think it was Joshua rather than the horn that was key.

If, say, Goliath, had used the horn, would it have worked for him? My guess not. You had to be favored. Not just anyone could use the horn or Moses' staff, David's sling, Sampson's jawbone of an ass,etc. The miracle was in the chosen user, not in the chosen object.
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
Actually, Solomon's son stole the Ark of the covenant and crossed the border to Bethshemesh with it. They were so inflicted with boils rashes and death that they brought it back to Solomon. But he had ordered a fake ark built so that people wouldn't revolt. So, the real Ark went missing...(Ethiopia?) And the FAKE was buried in Tanis...

Why would the FAKE then have all those supernatural powers then? Maybe the real one not only had the powers but with those bonus 10 Commandants and radio as well.
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:18 PM   #37
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I was under the impression that you were starting a commentary on what the Bible actually says, and what it doesn't. Where is it written that "The miracle was in the chosen user, not in the chosen object."??

And as for the Fake Ark having power? Religious artifacts may retain power. Even if you try to fake one. So, maybe the fake Ark brings death and the real Ark brings... oh, wait, different artifact...
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Old 05-01-2003, 07:38 PM   #38
Broomhandle Davis
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No, no magical trickets with eveready batteries

Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter
I was under the impression that you were starting a commentary on what the Bible actually says, and what it doesn't. Where is it written that "The miracle was in the chosen user, not in the chosen object."??...

It doesn't. But where in the Bible does it say Joshua used the horn and the walls came tumbling down. Then a decade later Waldo used the horn and the walls came tumbling down. Then Brittany picked it up several decades later and she made the walls come tumbling down.

All these miraculous items are all one-shot deals, they deal with a single occasion, a single crisis. They are not handed over to others and surely not others outside of the tribe or religion. Nor are they found, stumbled on, won in a poker game, or unearthed.

Nope it doesn't say expressly, but no where do magical props do magic for whomever possesses them. At least not in the Bible as translated into English. I'm not as familiar with the Pentauch as written.

[Edited by Broomhandle Davis on 05-01-2003 at 08:41 pm]
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Old 05-02-2003, 08:49 AM   #39
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I have a theory...

The theory is, people in Biblical times were all from Missouri, they had to see it to believe it. So God had to pull a few tricks to get these people's attention, that's why there were a lot of Visions back then. Anywho, just a possible explanation.

As far as whether it's real or not, I know it exists one way or another, it could be a chalice, or it could be a blood line, more practical theory, you never know. But some of you guys have it wrong, the Grail doesn't have healing powers, Spielberg took the Bible's talk of 'Blood of Jesus Christ giving you eternal life', he simply took the spiritual facts and made them into a cool visual feast. So you see, it didn't have powers, Jesus could have used it at the last supper, but you never know. Over time it has been mixed with myth to where nobody knows for sure.

Now, if it weren't an actual object it would be the blood line, shoot, I forgot all these names, been so long since I really studied it, but there was a Rabbi who wrote a book, he talked a lot about stuff like this, made sense, I'll have to search around for the title, but he laid it out. And he was a Jew who believed Jesus was the Messiah, so he was coming from a true believer's perspective. Anyway, it's one of those mysteries, but if we did ever find out the grail was a real object and it existed and we could prove what it was, it wouldn't do a thing, just make for a very cool cup.

As far as God giving powers to an inanimate object, look at the Ark, it's what the Bible says he did, he 'lived' in the Ark, now I know, God is everywhere, this is one of those things that gets tricky, it's God's way of playing with our heads I guess, but that's what he says. We got a guy in Ethiopia who claims to have the Ark, he says that he can only approach it. Why is this bogus? Cause when Jesus died, the covenant was complete, and the veil was rent, and the Ark was then just a gilded box. If you still don't have a clue about what I'm talking about, try reading Luke 24, that talks about the death of Jesus.

But anyway, just my thoughts.
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Old 05-02-2003, 10:30 AM   #40
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If you found an object, or was "given" an object that could destroy city walls, or wipe out whole armies, would YOU leave it lying around for others? Or would you hide it? Hence the Indy movies.

PS - the Ark DID do damage to others, 'cause they didn't know how to carry it, remember?
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Old 05-02-2003, 10:43 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter
PS - the Ark DID do damage to others, 'cause they didn't know how to carry it, remember?

I'm not saying it didn't have powers, no no no, I'm saying AFTER Jesus died, it left, but beforehand, it was one badass box.
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Old 05-02-2003, 11:59 AM   #42
Broomhandle Davis
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Cite? Reference?

Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter
If you found an object, or was "given" an object that could destroy city walls, or wipe out whole armies, would YOU leave it lying around for others? Or would you hide it? Hence the Indy movies.

PS - the Ark DID do damage to others, 'cause they didn't know how to carry it, remember?

Where are you getting this from? The Bible or an Indiana Jones book?
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Old 05-02-2003, 12:35 PM   #43
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The whole concept of the Indy type relics actually existing and having powers are very, very silly; for two reasons.

1. A complete lack of historical evidence for these 'super relics' supposed powers, there is no need to explain them as they are just very dodgy myth and legend.
2. I really have objections from a theological point of view even though i am an athiest, i cannot imagine an omnipotent begin leaving ultra holy (TM) artifacts lying around the world. Also these artifacts being in some way passive objects like a gun that functions like a machine.
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Old 05-02-2003, 12:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob
The whole concept of the Indy type relics actually existing and having powers are very, very silly; for two reasons.

1. A complete lack of historical evidence for these 'super relics' supposed powers, there is no need to explain them as they are just very dodgy myth and legend.
2. I really have objections from a theological point of view even though i am an athiest, i cannot imagine an omnipotent begin leaving ultra holy (TM) artifacts lying around the world. Also these artifacts being in some way passive objects like a gun that functions like a machine.
You're an atheist, you don't believe. Christianity along with Judaism are based on faith, therefore we don't need proof, we just believe, like it or not.

I respect your opinion, and in some ways you're right, but then again, you're not coming from the same perspective as me. You only believe what you see, that's alright, but in any case, I would call it silly, just not proof.

But, hypothetically speaking, let's say a HUGE archaeological dig were to take place in Jerusalem and they were to find the ark and they could prove without a doubt that it was the 'One True Ark', what would you think then?

Just curious
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Old 05-02-2003, 01:10 PM   #45
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Look faith is all very well, but what is the basis for your "faithful" intepretation that some of these objects do what somebody says they do?

The Holy Grail appears in no theological document. It is an ancient urban legend. It comes from the Arthur Legend as reduced to writing a century or so ago. Using theological logic there is no particular basis for its existence or its alleged powers. I'd go so far as to contend that it is inconsistent with the teachings and documents of the religions it is linked to.

I've asked where the traits attributed to the Ark of the Covenant come from and get no answer. In Isaiah there is talk of the fire and retribution of God, but it is not linked to the Ark necessarily. Where does it say outside of an Indiana Jones novel that the Ark was some sort of spiritual ray-gun?

Faith stems from a spiritual interpretation or understanding. The Holy Grail comes from an entertaining myth or work of fiction. As far as I can tell it comes from nothing more serious than that. I suppose I could read a Superman comicbook and say I have faith that men can fly if they come from alien planets, but it would be pretty lame.
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Old 05-02-2003, 01:38 PM   #46
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I respect faith to a certain extent but not to the extent that i have to ignore all of my rules about evidence. Tangible artifacts such as the Ark or the Grail or not ones that i accept on Faith, they exist in the physical world and so they conform to them. The Grail is worse than an Urban legend the first tales of it do not occur until deep into the dark ages there is no evidence that takes what we call the Holy Grail Legend beyond Medieval Northern Europe; and the only information on it comes from romanticised ballards about a legendary 6th century British warlord! It is just a pure legend no truthes are in there what so ever in a society obsessed with the getting of Relics the Grail just became the mystical ultimate Relic that Greedy monks dreamed of having to boost their income.

I really think that faith has come to depend more on Spiritual truthes than Enchanted knick nacks lying around Europe....

And if they did find the true ark in Jerusalem and it started smiting the unbelievers etc then i would really have no choice..would i?; i mean why would God leave his Holiest artifacts out for anyone to find?
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Old 05-02-2003, 02:17 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Broomhandle Davis
Look faith is all very well, but what is the basis for your "faithful" intepretation that some of these objects do what somebody says they do?

The Holy Grail appears in no theological document. It is an ancient urban legend. It comes from the Arthur Legend as reduced to writing a century or so ago. Using theological logic there is no particular basis for its existence or its alleged powers. I'd go so far as to contend that it is inconsistent with the teachings and documents of the religions it is linked to.

I've asked where the traits attributed to the Ark of the Covenant come from and get no answer. In Isaiah there is talk of the fire and retribution of God, but it is not linked to the Ark necessarily. Where does it say outside of an Indiana Jones novel that the Ark was some sort of spiritual ray-gun?

Faith stems from a spiritual interpretation or understanding. The Holy Grail comes from an entertaining myth or work of fiction. As far as I can tell it comes from nothing more serious than that. I suppose I could read a Superman comicbook and say I have faith that men can fly if they come from alien planets, but it would be pretty lame.
You have a good point, Bible doesn't make itself easy to understand, that's why scholars spend their entire life trying to figure it out. Where's Greg when you need him?


Quote:
Originally posted by bob
And if they did find the true ark in Jerusalem and it started smiting the unbelievers etc then i would really have no choice..would i?; i mean why would God leave his Holiest artifacts out for anyone to find?
Trying to figure out God: one of the biggest mistakes man ever made, that's what happened in bable, and sadly nobody learned.

And in any case, what makes you think it would 'smite' anybody? Now, after Christ's Crucifixtion, it's just a gilded box like I said, just a relic, a Museum peice. God doesn't want to FORCE anybody to believe in him, that's why he gave us a mind of our own, why did he do it? He loved us, He wanted us to be free, He wanted us to decide, He wanted you to believe in Him for real, not just because you had to, and that rings true today. So please, don't missunderstand what it's all about. That's all.

And if we did find it, the Muslims would go nuts...

And Bob, you also make another good point, why would God leave him on Earth? Maybe the reason we havn't found them is because he took care of them himself. And don't say "Maybe it's cause they don't exist..." because you won't have a worthy argument with me because I'll just call you crazy.
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Old 05-02-2003, 02:38 PM   #48
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Okay, after reading the thread and replies, I have this to say:

There is no 'Holy Grail'. There might have been a chalice that Jesus used at the Last Supper, that's it. Then, this was thrown into a mythological meat grinder in the dark ages and that's where the whole 'eternal life' came from. So, if you even found the 'Holy Grail', it wouldn't do a thing for you.

As far as the Ark, maybe what was happening that the Jews witnessed was so far beyond their comprehension, that they put it in their own context and did their best to interpret it. Now looking at their mind set, what they saw to them could be completely different to us, so to understand what really happened is nearly impossible, you just got to take it for what it is and make your own conclusion/theory.
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Old 05-02-2003, 03:54 PM   #49
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because you won't have a worthy argument with me because I'll just call you crazy. [/b][/quote]

I can live with that
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Old 05-02-2003, 06:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob
because you won't have a worthy argument with me because I'll just call you crazy.

I can live with that [/b][/quote]

Haha, well by that I ment you can't make a worthy argument by saying it doesn't exist, but hey, that's what the forum title is, look who's talkin...

I think it's safe to say Jesus drank from something at the last supper, but it had no special powers, I think that's a fair statment we can all agree on. Any objections?
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