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Old 05-02-2003, 10:21 PM   #51
thegreatimposter
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Re: Cite? Reference?

Quote:
Originally posted by Broomhandle Davis
Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter

PS - the Ark DID do damage to others, 'cause they didn't know how to carry it, remember?

Where are you getting this from? The Bible or an Indiana Jones book?

Book of Samuel:

"Seven months the Philistines were punished with the presence of the ark; so long it was a plague to them, because they would not send it home sooner."

"The Philistines consult how to send back the ark. (1-9) They bring it to Bethshemesh. (10-18) The people smitten for looking into the ark. (19-21)"

Thanks for the dis, but you know, maybe you should READ the Bible before talking about it...
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Old 05-02-2003, 10:52 PM   #52
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Just so we're clear:

Samuel 2:

6:6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.

6:7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

Kinda sounds like the Ark aint somethin' to mess with, hunh? Which is why, by the way, the deleted scenes for raiders of the lost ark include one in which Sallah is about to reach out and touch the Ark when Indy stops him, bearing a warning from the priest who gave Indy the measurements for the staff of ra. "Don't touch the Ark."

So, yeah, I got it from an Indy book, and MOVIE!!
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Old 05-03-2003, 10:16 AM   #53
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To go back to the thing about the horn bringing down the walls of Jericho, etc - surely it wouldn't simply be the artifact or the person who could make these miracles occur, but that big guy (I think some folk call him 'God' or something) acting through them. So if Joshua had kept the horn and tried repeating the trick elsewhere, it wouldn't work - unless God agreed to do his big bad wolf thing again ("I'll huff and I'll puff...").

As you may know, I'm not religious, so quoting chapter and verse of a book at me isn't going to mean much. But to me, it would make more sense if a religious artifact only had power if the divine gave it power as it was used in its intended manner, rather than letting it have power all the time so that any old person could come along and use that power for their dastardly deeds.

That would mean that someone (let's say me) could pick up the holy grail thinking "ooh, nice cup" and use it to drink from without any divine power being involved - I'm not seeing it as an instrument of power, but as a cup. Then someone else could come along and find the grail where I'd left it. Perhaps they'd see it for what it was, and through their faith they'd be able to use its powers - presumably God would be able to reward them if their intentions were honourable, and punish them if not. Likewise if someone came across a false grail and tried to use it as the true grail, God wouldn't be impressed, but if it was me picking up what looked like another nice cup, God wouldn't be too bothered (or he'd have a good laugh at the dumbass mortal).

Well, that's my theory anyway, and it fits quite well with the Indy films too.
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Old 05-03-2003, 01:59 PM   #54
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Re: Re: Cite? Reference?

[quote]Originally posted by thegreatimposter

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Originally posted by thegreatimposter

Thanks for the dis, but you know, maybe you should READ the Bible before talking about it...


Asking for the cite is not "dising," it is asking where you found it. It is asking for you to disclose for the benefit of others so we all don't have to read the Bible cover to cover...again.

I have my thoughts now that you have provided the references. Personally I don't think those quotes give rise to the conclusion that the Ark can be "used" by anyone or that it has powers in and of itself.

You were talking about how someone was not lifting the Ark correctly and I was wondering where that came from. It didn't seem Biblical to me.

[Edited by Broomhandle Davis on 05-03-2003 at 03:02 pm]
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:00 PM   #55
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Broomhandle, My apologies, you are absolutely right, there is no harm in asking for evidence. You're wording came across a little disrespectfully I thought, but maybe I read it with the wrong intonation.

Now to the meat:

Specific instructions we're given to the priests who were to carry the Ark. Once the Ark was stolen, and given to the Palestinians, people died. This is because they didn't know the instructions, so to speak. While Moses and the Hebrews were crossing the desert for forty years they habitually made camp every eight to ten paces and took a break. (Maybe that's what took so long) Some speculate that the Ark was in fact a Manna machine, used to create Manna frokm the atmosphere to live off of while they were in the wastelands. Also could be the reason people revolted against Moses because they'd been eating the same thing everyday. I'll get back to you with quotes.

And again Broomhandle, I am thoroughly enjoying these debates so keep it comin'...
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:08 PM   #56
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I have an issue twith the property and ownership of God. When the burning bush spoke to Moses, God identified himslef as the "God of the Hebrews." And during the Visions at Fatima, the first Angel introduced himself as the "Angel of Portugal."

I don't get it.

But in these cases it would be conceivable that the "God of the Hebrews" would provide them with something (a tool) to further their cause. ie, the Ark of the Covenant. My argument is if God NEEDS a tool to help his people, than his power is limited. I mean, hey God, why not NOT allow the Egyptions to enslave the Hebrews, or just intervene yourself? Why use Moses?

So, He needs to give people something of power instead of just showing up himself, I'm betting it'll retain that power for others, because obviously God doesn't have ultimate control, or he wouldn't need to go through these "Corrections". The key is having access to operating instructions...
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:41 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter
...So, He needs to give people something of power instead of just showing up himself, I'm betting it'll retain that power for others, because obviously God doesn't have ultimate control, or he wouldn't need to go through these "Corrections". The key is having access to operating instructions...

Now, there's a very good argument for leaving magical tools lying around. They are a component of free will. Man has a brain so he can select good or evil. He can also use his brain to employ tools for good or evil.

There are all sorts of natural tools lying around all the time rivers and trees and plants, etc. Man has the power to use them to make his life better...or worse. These sacred objects are sprinkled around to "turn up the heat" and let man elect good or evil on a larger scale.

Better (though I stll don't buy it).
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Old 05-06-2003, 11:11 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter
My argument is if God NEEDS a tool to help his people, than his power is limited. I mean, hey God, why not NOT allow the Egyptions to enslave the Hebrews, or just intervene yourself? Why use Moses?
Maybe God was trying to teach a lesson. I mean, I could have grown up without knowing how to tie my shoelaces cos my parents would do it for me, but is that really helping me in the long term? What if my parents were too busy to tie my laces one day? I'd have to go out without shoes, or risk tripping up and breaking my neck...?

I can't believe I'm arguing this when I don't even believe in God, but there ya go! I just love a debate!
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Old 05-06-2003, 11:50 AM   #59
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It's great to debate, helps exercise your knowledge of a subject.

To respond:

Learning to tie a knot would develope out of necessity or you would choose to make SLIP ONS! God doesn't need to come down and hold our hands so to speak when Nature has endowed us with the ability to eveolve and adapt. My problem is that God is trying to correct "Mistakes" through the use of power objects.

In fact, God must be fallible because he had to wipe everyone out, save Noah and his Ark to clean the slate...
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Old 05-16-2003, 05:07 AM   #60
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I think that it exsist, but not in the way that it is portrayed in LC.
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Old 05-16-2003, 07:54 AM   #61
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Good for you!
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Old 05-25-2003, 07:49 AM   #62
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I couldnt be bothered to read all the posts but I have seen the Holy Grail on the news.

Its in some Church in Italy and behind like some bulletproof glass.
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Old 05-27-2003, 10:51 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by British_Lion_2003
I couldnt be bothered to read all the posts but I have seen the Holy Grail on the news.

Its in some Church in Italy and behind like some bulletproof glass.

A grail maybe, but not THE grail as it doesnt really exist as a relic.

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Old 05-27-2003, 11:27 AM   #64
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Okay, you budding archaeologists, get real

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Originally posted by bob
Quote:
Originally posted by British_Lion_2003
I couldnt be bothered to read all the posts but I have seen the Holy Grail on the news.

Its in some Church in Italy and behind like some bulletproof glass.

A grail maybe, but not THE grail as it doesnt really exist as a relic.


The son of a carpenter in about 30 AD would not, I believe, have drunk out of anything fancy enough to be called a "grail." It might have been a carved wooden mug or a dried gourd or some pottery or crockery.

The wood or gourd wouldn't have survived. What do you find a good amount of in archaeologic sites? Broken pottery and crockery. Shards. They wouldn't have survived.

Statistically there were at least 13 people present. Who would have even remember which cup/mug was his? If it had magical curative powers how would those magical curative powers have been discovered?
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Old 05-28-2003, 10:36 AM   #65
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Well i think that IF anything like the story in the New Testemant ever happened i would imagine that the Chalice would become something of central importance to them. However as far as i can see there was no culture of collecting relics until centuries after, and the early Christians were a very unwidely mob full of different sects it would be likely that a Grail would have been lost.

Also the fact that our sole source talking about the Grail is a work of Fantasy starring a Legendary King written over a thousand years later.
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Old 05-28-2003, 11:40 AM   #66
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Actually our sources are a little more acurate than the Arthur fables. The grail cup is one of the central artifacts to the Cathar beliefs and also plays a symbolic role in Freemasonry. I suspect that although the bible is vague and embellished there are secret societies that do maintain the items of worship. Heck, if we see a celebrity now people want their signature on a piece of paper, as arbitrary as it is. So why not keep the cup that caught the blood of some guy who people think is a man of prophecy and who sacrificed himself for thousands. Sure beats a signature...
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Old 05-28-2003, 12:27 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter
Actually our sources are a little more acurate than the Arthur fables. The grail cup is one of the central artifacts to the Cathar beliefs and also plays a symbolic role in Freemasonry. I suspect that although the bible is vague and embellished there are secret societies that do maintain the items of worship. Heck, if we see a celebrity now people want their signature on a piece of paper, as arbitrary as it is. So why not keep the cup that caught the blood of some guy who people think is a man of prophecy and who sacrificed himself for thousands. Sure beats a signature...

The Cathors werent around until around 1000 years after the Grail was lost (i think at least?)
The Freemasons did not turn up until 17th Century or so

The idea that the Grail caught the Blood of Jesus is a Legend and not mentioned in the NT or any of the heretical gospels.

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Old 05-28-2003, 01:15 PM   #68
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Freemasons were knights templar who were hermetic order of the golden dawn...

They were around...

The origins of the Cathars began AT THE TIME OF JESUS DEATH. The church started killing 'em off about a thousand years later....
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Old 05-29-2003, 10:47 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by thegreatimposter
Freemasons were knights templar who were hermetic order of the golden dawn...

They were around...

The origins of the Cathars began AT THE TIME OF JESUS DEATH. The church started killing 'em off about a thousand years later....

The Freemasons have made up a lot of rubbish about themselves the fact is that they are a rich and influenticial persons club essentially; there is no line between a warrior monk order of Knights and Freemasons, the sucsession of the Templers runs through the Hospitilars.

Even so the Templers are still 1000 years after the time of Jesus

As far as i understand it the Cathars were a neo-gnostic group and there is no tradition of the Grail through them. These cults popped up and they fell only for their ideas to appear again hundreds of years later; there is no unbroken line of continuity between the Cathars and early christianity.

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Old 05-29-2003, 12:52 PM   #70
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It was my understanding that the Cathars were responsible for the Grail art seen in stain glass windows in the olde churches speckled across europes countryside. These churches were also fronts for Hermetic orders.

But you mentioned Hospitilars? Can you give me more info about them, I've never heard of 'em...
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Old 05-30-2003, 11:03 AM   #71
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But you mentioned Hospitilars? Can you give me more info about them, I've never heard of 'em...

They were a bit like the Templers except without the power and the mystery; the Hospitilars were a lot more closely linked to the state structure than the Templers were. They existed from around the 13th or so to the 16th century when Monastic orders of Knights melted away.

The last direct link with the Templers and the Monastic orders were the Knights of St.John who resisted out numbered 10 - 1 by Turks when they besieged Malta; the Knights ruled Malta until the time of Napoleon.
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Old 06-20-2003, 10:14 AM   #72
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As an historian, I can tell you there isn't definetively any REAL evidence of templar continuity after the order's desolution. All templars who survived became hospitallers or, as Desmond Stewart puts it "peniless men."

All the myths of templar-massonery connection are false, as are all the other "facts" people seems to know. The templars being a diabolic congregation, the templars as a modern-day institution of power and treasure-hunting (as is suggested in the novel: Tresure of the templars, a western story"), all those things are false. But Phillip the fair created so many lies to be able to judge them (including general homosexuallity), that the popular imagination began to fly. Even today many "official" templar orders exist, and many esoteric books and groups take their spiritual ideas form the templars' false mysticism. Even Umberto Eco wrote a book about it, accepting later that he just wanted to prove how people can be fooled with historic myths.

About the holy objects and great treasures, I can only say the following. The Arc of the Covenant was supposed to be kept on Salomon's Temple. That's why it is said it was kept by the templars. There is no evidence of these. Even Salomon's temple was destroyed and the Templar's headquarters wa not the temple itself. About the holy grail, I do not doubt the templars may seen it or keep it in a time, but there is little probability of this. The Arthurian knighty mithology shows the cup of Christ as an unreacheable goal. Only one of the great number of knights searching it actually found it, and that was because he had a pure heart, Percival if I remember well. At the end of the day, medieval writers would not write of the grail as such unreachable object if it was in the templar's grasp.

Finally, the templar treasure, I think, is also a post-medieval myth. I dont believe that a plan so well made as the arrest on Friday 13th would go without reaching its principal goal: to refill the royal chests. Phillip the fair would not create such an intrincate plan to let go part of the money.

Anyway, all this objects have been great inspiration for novels and movies, such as Indiana Jones, "The Templar Treasure", "Treasure of the Templars", and many others.
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Old 07-03-2003, 11:55 PM   #73
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In reference to the Grail, there is no biblical record of a cup catching the Lord's blood. And since the belief in the Grail stems from Christianity, wouldn't the Bible be the final authority?
As to the location of the Ark of the Covenant, Revelation 11:19 says:
"And the temple of God which is in heaven was
opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared
in His temple, and there were flashes of
lightning and sounds and peals of thunder
and an earthquake and a great hailstorm."

Sounds like bad news for us earth-bound treasure hunters. I've also heard rumors that a group of Israeli archaeologists actually located the Ark with imaging equipment underneath the Temple Mount. Supposedly, resident rabbinical leaders were aware of its presence since the time of Manasseh, when it was hid in tunnels and chambers within the Mount. This area is presently under Palestinian control, and so the archaeologists were called out by the Israeli government to keep from making a stink. Take it or leave it.
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Old 07-04-2003, 09:07 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cain

"And the temple of God which is in heaven was
opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared
in His temple, and there were flashes of
lightning and sounds and peals of thunder
and an earthquake and a great hailstorm."

Isn't "which is in heaven" referring to God rather than to the temple? I know by modern grammatical standards that would be incorrect, but isn't there a version of the Lord's Prayer that begins "Our Father, which art in heaven..."?
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Old 07-04-2003, 10:50 AM   #75
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If you read about the construction of the tabernacle in Exodus, you'll find that God said that the earthly schematics were a reflection of a heavenly temple. This was the reason the Lord was so specific with the dimensions. The ark was the place of God's earthly manifestation, and was therefore a typology of his throne. As to the specific Scriptures, I'll post them at a later date. Good call, though.
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