Is Indy a "Family hero" and a good role model for kids?

Is Indiana Jones a good role model for young kids?

  • Yes, he's a perfect role model.

    Votes: 18 46.2%
  • Not really but I don't mindmy kids watching the movies.

    Votes: 17 43.6%
  • NO WAY! He took advantage of teenage Marion amongst other things.

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • I have NO idea...

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • Total voters
    39

JuniorJones

TR.N Staff Member
Dr.Sartorius said:
Huh?!!??:eek:

Well I guess it has something to do with what the life expectancy was back then. 30 years old was probably middle age.

If what you're saying is true...

Just to add an additional element -

If you've seen the transcript of the original Raiders of the Lost Ark story conference among Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan there a segment that is quite uncomfortable reading due to the morality being discussed regarding statutory rape and promiscuity.

G = George Lucas, S = Steven Spielberg, L = Lawrence Kasdan.

G - We have to get them cemented into a very strong relationship. A bond.

L - I like it if they already had a relationship at one point. Because then you don't have to build it.

G — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.

L — And he was forty-two.

G — He hasn’t seen her in twelve years. Now she’s twenty-two. It’s a real strange relationship.

S — She had better be older than twenty-two.

G — He’s thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve. It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.

S — And promiscuous. She came onto him.

G — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it’s an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she’s sixteen or seventeen it’s not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he…

S — She has pictures of him.

G -There would be a picture on the mantle of her, her father and hi,. She was madly in love with him at the time and he left her because obviously it wouldn't work out. Now that she's 25 and she's been living in Napel since she was eighteen. It's not only that they like each other, it's a very bizarre thing. It gives you lots of stuff to play off of between them. Maybe she still likes him. It's something he'd rather forget and not have come up again. This give her a lot of ammunition to fight with.

S - In a way, she could say, "You've made me this hard"

G - This is a resource that you can either mine or not. It's not as blatanr as we're talking about. You odn't think about it that much. You don't immediatley realise how old she was at the time. It would be subtle, She could talk about it. "I was Jailbait the last time we were together. She can flaunt it at him, but at the same time she never says, "I was 15 years old." Even if we don't mention it, when we go to chas the part we're going to and up with a woman who's about 23 and a hero who's about 35.

The dialog of that scene in the film.

INDY: I never meant to hurt you.
MARION: I was a child! I was in love.
INDY: You knew what you were doing.
MARION: It was wrong. You knew it.
INDY: Look, I did what I did. I don’t expect you to be happy about it. But maybe we can do each other some good.
MARION: Why start now?
INDY: Shut up and listen for a second. I want that piece your father had. I’ve got money.
MARION: How much?
 
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Lance Quazar

Well-known member
I don't really find anything "uncomfortable" about the conversation quoted above.

It's impossible to tell from a written transcript, but I get a definitely jokey vibe from it, especially when Spielberg says "she came onto him."

Lucas initially says eleven, but then clarifies the age as being 15. I think they were all just spitballing ideas and had no real intention of actually making a twenty something sleep with an eleven year old.

Sure, fifteen and twenty five is definitely borderline, but for the 1920's, I'd say it's not quite entering criminal territory. And, yeah, the characters do at least quasi-acknowledge the inappropriateness of it in the actual film.
 

HJJNR

New member
goodeknight said:
Well, he's not that great of a role model, really. I mean, he does shoot an awful lot of people for starters.:gun: "Now, now Jimmy, you can't just shoot the Cairo Swordsman. Use your words. Now give each other a hug and make up."

My 7-year-old son adores Indy (just like his dad, and his mom for that matter), and we have no problem with that. If you're going to watch adventure movies, there really aren't many good role models. There are some better ones that can lead to good discussions, though. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is one of the best examples. Lord of the Rings. Solid Christian principles presented through allegory.

Indy mainly runs around shooting bad guys. Bit too much of a ladies man as well. At least by Crystal Skull he really settles down and recognizes the love of his life, rather than just getting the girl.

However, in spite of that stuff, he does have a lot of positive qualities. Generally trustworthy, honest, reliable, loyal -- all the stuff from the Boy Scout Law and then some. He's a man of principles, integrity, and honor. So there's a lot kids can learn from Indy. You just have to get around the shooting people part. (y)

Absolutely! I think every hero has his/ her flaws otherwise they wouldnt be "real". The shooting is pretty hard to justify but as for the swordsman, I tell my son he shot it near him and he fainted lol.
The principles and qualities of Jones are what I mean about role model material and as I mentioned in previous postings elsewhere, it gets my son out and about more, wanting to find treasure and bullwhip onto tree branches lol.

Hey if he wasn't a good hero for young kids why would they have this?
3838287.jpg
 

JuniorJones

TR.N Staff Member
Lance Quazar said:
I don't really find anything "uncomfortable" about the conversation quoted above.

It's impossible to tell from a written transcript, but I get a definitely jokey vibe from it, especially when Spielberg says "she came onto him."

Lucas initially says eleven, but then clarifies the age as being 15. I think they were all just spitballing ideas and had no real intention of actually making a twenty something sleep with an eleven year old.


Sure, fifteen and twenty five is definitely borderline, but for the 1920's, I'd
say it's not quite entering criminal territory. And, yeah, the characters do
at least quasi-acknowledge the inappropriateness of it in the actual
film.





I was refering to indy's moralilty. I would find it a strange thing to joke about. I can't remember how many times people have laughed when I've told them
the joke of the 12 year old girl, who hit on her 25 and he took advantage of this.

Maybe it's a bit like an old Clint Eastwood movie where as he would find the screaming native who would attack him, spit on his face, fight him, he would throw her to the floor, take off his belt, she would scream, he would force
himself on her and within a few minutes she will be loving it. What a hero. He was raping her and she loved it. A heart warming message to all rapist who like to justify their actions.

Prehaps a pedophile will quote Indy actions as a justification.

How my sides are splitting.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Sharkey said:
How would you describe a 42 or 25 year old man having sex with an 11,12 or 15 year old?

Nothing screams family entertainment like - I was a child, I was in love it was wrong and you knew it!

Yeah, family hero, if you're the Manson Family.

Can't wait to catch up with you and yours...don't forget to bring your sweet little daughter to the church drinking contest. I bet she doesn't wet herself THIS time!

Never seen that version...please.
There is nothing in the movie, or script, that remotely suggests Indiana Jones had sex with Marion Ravenwood without her consent. Furthermore, it's an assumption to believe Marion was literally under age. It?s more probable that she was talking figuratively. Are you really suggesting that Lucas/Spielberg?s intention was to portray Indy as nothing more than a pedophile? Is it not possible they simply wanted to portray him as a roguish charmer, who was capable of taking advantage of a naive young woman?
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
HJJNR said:
Absolutely! I think every hero has his/ her flaws otherwise they wouldnt be "real". The shooting is pretty hard to justify but as for the swordsman, I tell my son he shot it near him and he fainted lol.
The principles and qualities of Jones are what I mean about role model material and as I mentioned in previous postings elsewhere, it gets my son out and about more, wanting to find treasure and bullwhip onto tree branches lol.

Hey if he wasn't a good hero for young kids why would they have this?
3838287.jpg

There's nothing immoral about Indy shooting the swordsman. He was being attacked. By people who were trying to kill him. People who nearly succeeded. The swordsman was a participant in that attempted murder and was clearly planning to attack himself.

Deadly force was definitely an appropriate response.
 

Darth Vile

New member
JuniorJones said:
I was refering to indy's moralilty. I would find it a strange thing to joke about. I can't remember how many times people have laughed when I've told them
the joke of the 12 year old girl, who hit on her 25 and he took advantage of this.

Maybe it's a bit like an old Clint Eastwood movie where as he would find the screaming native who would attack him, spit on his face, fight him, he would throw her to the floor, take off his belt, she would scream, he would force
himself on her and within a few minutes she will be loving it. What a hero. He was raping her and she loved it. A heart warming message to all rapist who like to justify their actions.

Prehaps a pedophile will quote Indy actions as a justification.

How my sides are splitting.

I think Lance is suggesting that perhaps Lucas/Spielberg were simply applying (or playing with) the morality of the period the movie was set in. For example, if you were making a cop thriller set in the 1970's and if you wanted to accurately reflect both the period and institution, it would be legitimate to incorporate language that isn't appropriate in today's world.
 

JuniorJones

TR.N Staff Member
Darth Vile said:
There is nothing in the movie, or script, that remotely suggests Indiana Jones had sex with Marion Ravenwood without her consent. Furthermore, it's an assumption to believe Marion was literally under age. It?s more probable that she was talking figuratively. Are you really suggesting that Lucas/Spielberg?s intention was to portray Indy as nothing more than a pedophile? Is it not possible they simply wanted to portray him as a roguish charmer, who was capable of taking advantage of a naive young woman?

Why not? He wasn't in love, he took advantage of her. It was that horrific for her that she went to live in nepal and tried to drink her life way.

I would so far as to say this may be some kind of wishful thinking on behalf of Lucas and Speilberg regarding the promiscuity of 12 year old girls.
 

JuniorJones

TR.N Staff Member
Darth Vile said:
I think Lance is suggesting that perhaps Lucas/Spielberg were simply applying (or playing with) the morality of the period the movie was set in. For example, if you were making a cop thriller set in the 1970's and if you wanted to accurately reflect both the period and institution, it would be legitimate to incorporate language that isn't appropriate in today's world.

That's right, inapporpriate sexual relationships with minors was rampant amongst cinematic serial hero adventures in the 1930 and 1940s.

Raiders is a modern take on the serials and would have been subject to morality of the time it was made.


If they wanted to add a bit accuracy prehaps they could have shown the true atrocities of the Nazi's rather than a Nazi saluting monkey.

The Marion/Indy relationship - It's uncomfortable and that's how Lucas intended it.
 
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YouNeverKnow

New member
I'm 21. Pretty much my entire life I've been watching Star Wars and Indiana Jones. From the mouth of a male who grew up idolizing Ford's characters, I say he is a perfect role model. Using my own experience as an example, children have no idea about the grayer aspects of the film. I have never, EVER thought about Indy and Marion's relationship before these recent threads other than "they had a relationship". I have never felt the urge to fire a gun or fight people. As a child, you watch the films and you see blacks and whites: it's the Nazis, it's scary cult guys with skeleton cups, it's the...Nazis again. EVERYTHING Indy does to them is completely justified because those are scary archetype baddies and that makes Indy, who fights them, a good guy. Indy is a perfect role model for young boys in particular because of this. I feel like some people who may see otherwise might have lost sight of these important aspects coming from their jaded, now-adult viewpoints. I'm not immune to this. Every time I go back and watch I catch more dialogue and draw conclusions that would never have occurred to me in my wildest dreams watching as a kid. But I think that is yet another part of the magic of Indy. He is all things at all different life stages. That's pretty awesome.
 

HJJNR

New member
YouNeverKnow said:
I'm 21. Pretty much my entire life I've been watching Star Wars and Indiana Jones. From the mouth of a male who grew up idolizing Ford's characters, I say he is a perfect role model. Using my own experience as an example, children have no idea about the grayer aspects of the film. I have never, EVER thought about Indy and Marion's relationship before these recent threads other than "they had a relationship". I have never felt the urge to fire a gun or fight people. As a child, you watch the films and you see blacks and whites: it's the Nazis, it's scary cult guys with skeleton cups, it's the...Nazis again. EVERYTHING Indy does to them is completely justified because those are scary archetype baddies and that makes Indy, who fights them, a good guy. Indy is a perfect role model for young boys in particular because of this. I feel like some people who may see otherwise might have lost sight of these important aspects coming from their jaded, now-adult viewpoints. I'm not immune to this. Every time I go back and watch I catch more dialogue and draw conclusions that would never have occurred to me in my wildest dreams watching as a kid. But I think that is yet another part of the magic of Indy. He is all things at all different life stages. That's pretty awesome.

I agree with that, our cynical adult minds sometimes see the worst in most things; unfortunately thats down to that fact that we watch the news, read the papers (in between working and watching Indy of course) and see what "life" is actually like in these times. The innocence of a child watching the right film can be preserved and my childhood was a fun one, full of adventures and getting caked in mud and that has a LOT to do with Indy films. I know kids as young as 6 or 7 being allowed to watch Resident Evil and Terminator and that kind of film steals their innocence. There was mention of Indy's relationship with Marion in another thread in which it was said that he "technically" raped her :eek: due to the discussion in Raven ( Marion: "I was a child, I was in love") but nowhere in that conversation or any that I know of did any sexual act take place. I always read that as she was in love and he just took off. Does anyone here have a theory on this?
 

HJJNR

New member
Lance Quazar said:
There's nothing immoral about Indy shooting the swordsman. He was being attacked. By people who were trying to kill him. People who nearly succeeded. The swordsman was a participant in that attempted murder and was clearly planning to attack himself.

Deadly force was definitely an appropriate response.

Good point. We are all taught (I assume) that if you are threatened and you fear for your life to protect yourself. OK Indy could have whipped the sword out of his hand but whats to say that that kind of unpredictable tactic may have sent that sword flying into someone in the crowd... we do what we think is right at the time.
 

HJJNR

New member
Lets open a "Did Indy rape Marion" thread, lol.

All these points are interesting but the one thing I feel is that there is NO mention of sexual intercourse as such. I always assumed that she was infatuated with him and he left and that was what hurt her... just a thought.
:confused:
 

Dr.Sartorius

New member
HJJNR said:
All these points are interesting but the one thing I feel is that there is NO mention of sexual intercourse as such. I always assumed that she was infatuated with him and he left and that was what hurt her... just a thought.
:confused:

Actually nothing happened. They're fictional characters. ;)
 

Crack that whip

New member
JuniorJones said:
Why not? He wasn't in love, he took advantage of her. It was that horrific for her that she went to live in nepal and tried to drink her life way.

I would so far as to say this may be some kind of wishful thinking on behalf of Lucas and Speilberg regarding the promiscuity of 12 year old girls.

I think I can say with absolute certainty neither Lucas nor Spielberg ever truly intended to suggest she was anywhere near that young, and even if she was at one time meant to have been 15 or so, it's surely no longer the case. I'd think she was more like 17 - young enough to have regretted it when she was older, but not so young that she was a child being molested or anything like that. And FWIW, the Ultimate Guide does indeed cite a birthdate for her that would make her 17 at the time of the affair.

And she didn't go to Nepal to drink her life away; she went there because that's where her father Abner's work took him (and her with him), and when he died she didn't have an easy way to get back right away. Indy went to the Raven looking for Abner, remember?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Marion had a hard life, and it wasn't all Indy's fault. After Abner died she had to resort to prostitution, as the 1979 screenplay and the novel tell:

"He [Abner] dragged me, a kid, halfway round the world on his crazy digs. Then he pops off. He didn't leave me a penny. Guess how I lived, Jones? I worked here. And I wasn't exactly the bartender, you understand?"

(Were those lines in the movie?)
 

DocWhiskey

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
(Were those lines in the movie?)

Certainly not.

Yeesh. Tough life is right for 'ol Marion.

Who knows how many "Mutts" there were before the one we know came to be :dead:
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
It seems like the centerpoint of the discussion over the last few pages would be better suitable for its own thread. It might be inappropiate for this one, but nothing worth declaring a taboo over. At least in my mind.

Also, when you present interpretations of things that have happened offscreen, try not to dress them as factual statements, even if it sometimes seems tempting for a stronger effect. You know, to avoid extra trouble and unnecessary accusations if your main focus was in springing some discussion, not riling people up.
 
I hear Indy V's "germ of an idea" is about Mutt's fling with Sallah's early teen daughter...and is in danger of having his "misunderstanding" cut off.

...and the wackiness ensues, as Marion and Indy come to terms with their own history:

I was a child, I was in love it was wrong and you knew it!

Fun for the whole family!

Wow another "Sharkey Attack" riling up the townsfolk!
 
Crack that whip said:
And FWIW, the Ultimate Guide does indeed cite a birthdate for her that would make her 17 at the time of the affair.

FWIW, the Ultimate Guide also states Shorty wears a NY Yankees hat.

The Crystal Skull novel puts a new spin on how they met...(the daughter of a teacher very well may have "skipped" a grade or two but a 15 year old in a graduate class?).

Who knows how Indy V will revise history and sanitize Indiana Jones to push him further into the light.
 
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