was indy still "the MAN"?

the ox

New member
i was someone who went at midnight and left feeling disappointed. it just was not the movie i had wanted. and it felt a bit "flat". i went again a few months later - right before it left theaters - and enjoyed it for what it was ... really liking the parts i thought were cool.

i realized the bummer of the movie - which, even as i grow to like/respect it i don't think i can deny - there was no part in anything you could call a climax of the movie where indy was THE MAN!:gun:

you know?

it was like they squeezed a lot of cool stuff earlier like the longer-than-usual opening stuff so that we fans would get to see indy back in action. and i loved that stuff (even the fridge!). then - the bit where he blows that dart ... awesome! but after that comes the jungle chase and while giving mutt some action was fine it went on too long and for me IT NEEDED TO ULTIMATELY SHOW INDY SAVING EVERYONE ELSE and grabbing the skull. i wouldn't have even cared how he did it - vines ... whatever! just let indy have the same sort of moment he had on the truck in raiders, in temple's mines and on the awesome tank chase in crusade. as it was - indy was gonna get pushed off the cliff before mutt saved the day. it was cool when shorty saved him in TEMPLE and it would have been cool if mutt had also rescued him in some way ... but there needed to be a moment like when that guy is beating the kid in the mines and the whip comes in and then the shot that reveals jones standing there ... sort of silhouetted - it makes you go YEAH!!!!! (no matter what you think of each film critically - isn't that why most of us watch the indy movies and love them - despite any "faults" of the films??

i don't mind the aliens, the son, the wedding - i just wish after all those years they had given us a chance to root for our hero again throughout the whole movie. as is - the second half just still seems a ramble and kind of boring - maybe like this post!!

if they could have knocked out a few more of these movies back in the nineties (or at least one more!) then SKULL wouldn't have had to deliver so much ... but i'm grateful for the movies they made - even this one ...
 

oki9Sedo

New member
the ox said:
but there needed to be a moment like when that guy is beating the kid in the mines and the whip comes in and then the shot that reveals jones standing there ... sort of silhouetted - it makes you go YEAH!!!!!

What about when Indy picks his hat up from the ant hill and puts it back on after beating Dovchenko?
 

TheLastCrusader

Active member
oki9Sedo said:
What about when Indy picks his hat up from the ant hill and puts it back on after beating Dovchenko?
True, but that's about the only moment in KotCS. An Indy film should be full of 'em.
 

bonoferox

Active member
I consider the warehouse scene to be somewhat of his defining characterstic scene. Not really showing him coming out on top, but pretty much having him alone against a hand full of troopers, facing one of them down and walking away from it.

Again, not as exciting as the truck, minecart or tank chase by any means, but still had the fun aspect.
 

Ska

New member
I'd say Indy promising Mac he was gonna break his nose, and they doing so at the beginning of the truck chase was a good "Yeah Indy!" moment.
 

Sankara

Guest
Yes, that's one of the many-many mistakes of this movie. This time Indiana Jones is not Indiana Jones. Yes, he looks like Indy - but this is not Indy, I'm afraid..
 

deckard24

New member
IndyJess said:
What I noticed is that Indy has no neck! Does Harrison have Klippel-Feil syndrome or is it just old age?
I'd say it's a combination of old age and abuse to his body over the years from stuntwork. The guy is 66 and has seriously put his body through the ringer! I noticed it too for what it's worth, it's like he's become shorter and squatter over the years.


As for Indy still being "The Man!" in KOTCS, I didn't see it! There wasn't one moment like in the previous films, where Indy did something just purely badass that made me wanna cheer! In Raiders you had scenes like the truck chase, or when the pirates on the Bantu Wind are searching for him, and he pops up on the side of the sub as The Raiders March kicks in! In TOD you had probably the most badass scene of Indy in all the films, when he knocks out the temple guard and he's standing there partially silhouetted in the tunnel entrance! Or even in LC, when he finally gets the upper hand on Vogel, and pummels his face into the tank hatch! For me there wasn't a single scene like that in KOTCS, and in my opinion it's just one of many reasons why the film feels flat and just plain off!
 

the ox

New member
yeah - i liked when he picked up the hat off the anthill ... i'm not saying indy wasn't cool and i think FORD was AWESOME - that second half just missed something - in my opinion, anyway.
 

James

Well-known member
I think this is probably the core problem that a lot of fans had with the film. Many wanted Indy to be just like his younger self, and instead he was a more mature character than we've previously seen.

So right away, there's an obvious disconnect here. For a lot of fans, they wanted a film that justified their streak of arrested adolescence. What they got was a film where the hero acknowledged the passage of time, and ultimately accepted increased responsibility in his life. Is it any wonder that the film played overwhelmingly better with the over 30 crowd?

Admittedly, a lot of this could've likely been avoided if Indy- rather than Mutt- had been the centerpiece of the jungle chase. Even though Indy got equal billing with the ant fight, a lot of fans didn't see it that way. Regardless, one thing I love about the series is that Ford has approached the character differently each time out. So while Indy may take a more scholarly role here, he is still the one who is constantly driving the plot.

Sure, Mutt gets a cool chase sequence early on (much like Short Round in TOD), but it's Indy who orchestrates both the beginning and end of that flight. He is also the one who discovers the skull's location, engineers the escape from the jungle convoy, and leads everyone to Akator. We're just not used to seeing a sidekick be able to hold his own so well, which any son of Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood would obviously be able to do.

I disagree with those who argue that Indy just stands around at the end. Does anyone really believe he needs Oxley's help to find a way out of the cave? I see that entire sequence as Indy merely showing respect for his old friend and colleague. He realizes that Oxley is the one who needs to find his way out- in this case- of his own mind. You can also clearly glimpse Indy's sense of pride as he says, "You figured this out in your cell, didn't you professor?"

So while it may rely less on trying to convince us that Indy is "the man"- although I thought his fedora retrieval from the ant mound was a nice throwback to that kind of thing- it does provide us with some new layers to the character. Consider that Indy's chief concern isn't stopping the bad guys or gaining wealth- he basically just wants to rescue Marion and help Oxley regain his dignity.
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
IndyJess said:
What I noticed is that Indy has no neck! Does Harrison have Klippel-Feil syndrome or is it just old age?

Actually it's C.) It's just you! ;)

deckard24 said:
As for Indy still being "The Man!" in KOTCS, I didn't see it! There wasn't one moment like in the previous films, where Indy did something just purely badass that made me wanna cheer! In Raiders you had scenes like the truck chase, or when the pirates on the Bantu Wind are searching for him, and he pops up on the side of the sub as The Raiders March kicks in! In TOD you had probably the most badass scene of Indy in all the films, when he knocks out the temple guard and he's standing there partially silhouetted in the tunnel entrance! Or even in LC, when he finally gets the upper hand on Vogel, and pummels his face into the tank hatch! For me there wasn't a single scene like that in KOTCS, and in my opinion it's just one of many reasons why the film feels flat and just plain off!


I personally thought the Fridge and shooting the dart in the warrior's mouth were particularly badass! :hat:

To answer the question: Yes! Indy is still the man!
 

the ox

New member
James said:
I think this is probably the core problem that a lot of fans had with the film. Many wanted Indy to be just like his younger self, and instead he was a more mature character than we've previously seen.

So right away, there's an obvious disconnect here. For a lot of fans, they wanted a film that justified their streak of arrested adolescence. What they got was a film where the hero acknowledged the passage of time, and ultimately accepted increased responsibility in his life. Is it any wonder that the film played overwhelmingly better with the over 30 crowd?

Admittedly, a lot of this could've likely been avoided if Indy- rather than Mutt- had been the centerpiece of the jungle chase. Even though Indy got equal billing with the ant fight, a lot of fans didn't see it that way. Regardless, one thing I love about the series is that Ford has approached the character differently each time out. So while Indy may take a more scholarly role here, he is still the one who is constantly driving the plot.

Sure, Mutt gets a cool chase sequence early on (much like Short Round in TOD), but it's Indy who orchestrates both the beginning and end of that flight. He is also the one who discovers the skull's location, engineers the escape from the jungle convoy, and leads everyone to Akator. We're just not used to seeing a sidekick be able to hold his own so well, which any son of Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood would obviously be able to do.

I disagree with those who argue that Indy just stands around at the end. Does anyone really believe he needs Oxley's help to find a way out of the cave? I see that entire sequence as Indy merely showing respect for his old friend and colleague. He realizes that Oxley is the one who needs to find his way out- in this case- of his own mind. You can also clearly glimpse Indy's sense of pride as he says, "You figured this out in your cell, didn't you professor?"

So while it may rely less on trying to convince us that Indy is "the man"- although I thought his fedora retrieval from the ant mound was a nice throwback to that kind of thing- it does provide us with some new layers to the character. Consider that Indy's chief concern isn't stopping the bad guys or gaining wealth- he basically just wants to rescue Marion and help Oxley regain his dignity.


yeah, man - i think what you say is true and i KNOW that's what they were going for with this movie. and that's why i came to accept it and started enjoying it 2nd time around. maybe i just feel a little like - while we all get old and time passes ... the sunset at the end of CRUSADE locked indy in our hearts safe from time and nature. i guess they made indy more "real" with the 4th movie and that's the crux of people's love/hate for the film.

it's funny - indy's the same age as my dad in SKULL. he's gonna love the movie when he sees it - doesn't make it to theaters anymore ...
 

The Man

Well-known member
Ford can still do it. Such a shame, then, that Steven 'This Movie Ain't Happening Without My Shia' Spielberg had David Koepp neuter him...
 

Niteshade007

New member
The Man said:
Ford can still do it. Such a shame, then, that Steven 'This Movie Ain't Happening Without My Shia' Spielberg had David Koepp neuter him...

I'm not sure how true that is. Didn't Spielberg okay the Darabont script, which had no Shia-esque character? It was Lucas who vetoed it.
 

The Man

Well-known member
Niteshade007 said:
I'm not sure how true that is. Didn't Spielberg okay the Darabont script, which had no Shia-esque character? It was Lucas who vetoed it.

Spielberg brought Koepp onboard during War Of The Worlds; it's more than a little likely that he had 'discovered' LaBeouf's 'charms' circa the same time. Were there any auditions held for the Mutt Williams character? Didn't Spielberg pretty much tell Shia that the part was his?

Mutt was a Spielberg addition, the same old father-son dynamic he insists upon over and over. And over...
 

Niteshade007

New member
Well, I'm not sure if auditions were held for any of the main characters. In fact, didn't most of the cast sign on without reading the script first?

I'm pretty Blanchett was just asked to be in it, same for Shia. I remember reading that John Hurt actually read the script, then signed on (why, I have no idea), then I'm not sure about everyone else. Broadbent may have just been asked as well, same goes for Winstone.
 
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