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Old 02-27-2007, 07:22 PM   #26
Finn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
My eyes are open... You haven't put anything in front of them yet.
I'll try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

But since it's a wikipedia article, I probably wrote it just a couple of minutes ago because I had nothing better to do, eh Clinty?
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:38 PM   #27
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Who is Jesus?
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:46 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Baron Brunwald
Who is Jesus?
The guy who comes over your southern border without proper papers and can then be found as a fruit vendor in San Diego...
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Finn
The guy who comes over your southern border without proper papers and can then be found as a fruit vendor in San Diego...

Ohh ok. I think I got a banana from him at last year's ComicCon.
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Old 02-27-2007, 09:37 PM   #30
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"why in the world would I even bother"
Nobody asked you did they.... Your personal failings are none of my concern.


"how about you try typing in"
I'm not the one making the outrageous claim... and an outrageous claim requires outrageous proof.

You claim to have that proof, so cite it... Otherwise your cowardice says more, and says it louder and clearer than any of your arguments have so far...

Instead you resort to childish name-calling. Not that I expected anything better from you. It's too bad 'faith' and 'religion' are so poorly represented on this forum.... We could use more people like Doc Savage.
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:29 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
The guy who comes over your southern border without proper papers and can then be found as a fruit vendor in San Diego...


Don't encourage them, my good friend....the crossers or the posters. lol
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Old 02-28-2007, 08:43 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
We could use more people like Doc Savage.
In all sincerity, thank you. A thinking man's compliment is a compliment indeed. And not to leave said compliment without corresponding action...
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 93 A.D.
"About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day."

Tacitus, Annals, 116 A.D.
"Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."


Pliny the Younger in a letter to Trajan, 112 A.D.

"Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do *— these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ."

All emphasis added by yours truly. The rest speaks, historically, for itself. Jesus the man did exist. Jesus the Son of Man lives forever, established faith picking up where established fact leaves off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
The Shroud is fake? Or the claim it is the burial cloth of a man who was crucified?
The Shroud has always fascinated me. If it's a forgery, the artist knew considerably the effects of crucifixion on a body. As to a Man being crucified, can 1 billion Christians be wrong?

*those would be "True Scotsmen," CH :-p

Last edited by Doc Savage : 02-28-2007 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:03 AM   #33
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CH, out of all the discussions you and I have had as well as with the other members of this forum on the Bible there has been plenty of evidence presented to you that the Bible is accurate, inerrant and reliable. You even have securlar sources that prove this. All I ask is you have an open mind and at least entertain all of the evidence and maybe go on some faith. If you put forth the effort, I know God will reveal Himself to you. I am writing this not to cause conflict but to sincerely reach you.
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:49 AM   #34
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"plenty of evidence presented to you that the Bible is accurate, inerrant and reliable"

Sorry, the "bible" is none of those things...

Nice post Doc... I'll address it when I have more time!

"can 1 billion Christians be wrong?"
Sure they can....
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:57 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indyt
CH, out of all the discussions you and I have had as well as with the other members of this forum on the Bible there has been plenty of evidence presented to you that the Bible is accurate, inerrant and reliable.
I'm no Clinton, but I think he's done his own part to present evidence of the opposite, with very little regard from believers. Not exactly the best position to start recommending "broader" view of the world.

***

Anyway, to wrap it all into one nice chapter, there's no such thing as the universal truth to go with in a subject as aged and mysterious as this. Or, there is, but it's likely to stay veiled 'til to end of all mankind. Kind of silly to think it's all in the Good Book.

Therefore, you've probably heard this song before, but I think faith should be something to hold close to heart and dear, something personal, known to the carrier only. It's no religion that should scorched out of this world, but organized religion. Would there be no better way to get actual proof of the ultimate powers if every man was up to finding it himself instead of being conviced so often by sheer amount of numbers? Like our fair Doc here put it, one billion Christians is a hefty group to disagree with.

James Cameron's not telling us the truth either. He's telling his truth. Like we all are, when asked, not spreading the truth, but our truth. Yet, none of these are actually arguable. So much information to seed out and so little time. If only there was a way for us to be more than just the sums of our surroundings... then perhaps all the pieces that seem unfitting to the puzzle wouldn't be tossed away so lightheartedly, but used to see that what we consider the complete picture is more likely just a piece of one bigger puzzle... and the piece that doesn't seem to fit has its place after all.

Is this my truth then? Certainly not. But what is, I'm not going to tell because it's mine and only mine.
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Old 02-28-2007, 12:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
...there's no such thing as the universal truth to go with in a subject as aged and mysterious as this. Or, there is, but it's likely to stay veiled 'til to end of all mankind. Kind of silly to think it's all in the Good Book.
Silly is as silly does. Or as the Master put it, "wisdom is justified of her children."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
...I think faith should be something to hold close to heart and dear, something personal, known to the carrier only.
Those of us who believe have been given a commission to "go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every nation." To hide our faith, by the strictest definition, is to deny it. If I believe the Bible historically, scientifically, and philosophically, and yet don't obey its mandates, I'm the worst sort of hypocrite. Some people need a Damascus road (as I did) and some will need a critical evaluation of fact. Either way, as Paul said, I endeavor to become "all things to all people."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
It's not religion that should scorched out of this world, but organized religion. Would there be no better way to get actual proof of the ultimate powers if every man was up to finding it himself instead of being conviced so often by sheer amount of numbers?
That's the only way to acquire the proof. I was raised in the church...and bolted at the first opportunity. I had to individually encounter Truth after years of trying everything else. The church, as a whole, has done a terrible job of introducing people to Christ. Another thing I endeavor to do my part to change.

But I digress...
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Old 02-28-2007, 01:22 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Savage
Those of us who believe have been given a commission to "go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every nation." To hide our faith, by the strictest definition, is to deny it.
Now, that sounds a little too convenient, doesn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Savage
That's the only way to acquire the proof.
Yet, there are people who never question. Sorry are those who grow up into doctrine instead of finding it themselves.
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Old 02-28-2007, 01:59 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Now, that sounds a little too convenient, doesn't it?
Believe me, Finn, convenience has nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Yet, there are people who never question. Sorry are those who grow up into doctrine instead of finding it themselves.
Amen and amen. Faith that isn't personal is no faith at all.
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Old 02-28-2007, 02:06 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Savage
Amen and amen. Faith that isn't personal is no faith at all.
That is what I meant when I said I feel sorry because many of us are simply sums of our surroundings. Especially our children are eager to believe whatever their elders tell them as truth... and many of them get so accustomed to it that they disregard "contradicting evidence" by habit, not by conclusion. And those who come to think otherwise nevertheless... the amount of bridges that have been burnt is unimaginable.

If not spreading the word is out of the question, perhaps we should at least look little into to whom, and when. Respect those, who preach to the ones looking for their path, abhor those who do it to the ones who know of nothing else.
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Old 02-28-2007, 03:17 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Finn
If not spreading the word is out of the question, perhaps we should at least look little into to whom, and when. Respect those, who preach to the ones looking for their path, abhor those who do it to the ones who know of nothing else.
This statement reminds me of when Jesus said that Christians are the light of the world. Those who want said light are drawn to it while others flee. Jesus didn't go around looking for an audience...He merely was what He was and people reacted to that. Without soliciting, He developed a following. He spoke in the synagogues where people gathered to learn. From there people either clung to Him or confronted and conspired. When Christians can prompt the world to ask concerning the "hope that is in them" we will have acheived what the Master walked in daily.
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Old 02-28-2007, 03:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Savage
This statement reminds me of when Jesus said that Christians are the light of the world. Those who want said light are drawn to it while others flee. Jesus didn't go around looking for an audience...He merely was what He was and people reacted to that.
What little I've studied the book, I understood that most of the ones who listened the Christ were grownups, looking for salvation. They needed what he had to offer.

However, has something twisted in the pan of the centuries as nowadays our main method of spreading each one's individual faith is to introduce our youth into it as soon as it seems applicable? Children are influental, most of them take for granted what their parents tell them to believe. I'm no expert, so I can just wonder, does that result in finding one's own path or faith by habit?

You're a family man, Doc. How do you intend to raise them? Are you going to influence them to find a truth similar to yours, or do you encourage them to draw conclusions with the brain they have been given, even though they might be something completely different from your own?
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Old 02-28-2007, 03:49 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
You're a family man, Doc. How do you intend to raise them? Are you going to influence them to find a truth similar to yours, or do you encourage them to draw conclusions with the brain they have been given, even though they might be something completely different from your own?
I intend to introduce them to God and trust Him to reveal Himself to them. My daughter, at three, has shown herself incredibly shrewd. In the final analysis, an individual with any strength of character will eventually be force into a confrontation with his or her belief system. I have the utmost faith that Truth will win out in their lives. Will I educate them? Yes. Will they read their Bibles? You bet (a practice I was never introduced to as a child; no wonder the church as a whole is ignorant and self-destructive). But critical thinking will be included into the mix, not dogmatic tyranny. All I can do, and indeed need do, is point them in the direction of the Master. He can and will take it from there.
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Old 02-28-2007, 04:10 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Doc Savage
But critical thinking will be included into the mix, not dogmatic tyranny. All I can do, and indeed need do, is point them in the direction of the Master. He can and will take it from there.
Still sounds a little too influental for my tastes. Up to my beliefs, there should be some leads towards agnosticism if one really wants them to make choices. Hopefully your goal is to get them confused concerning contradicting pieces of info (so that they really seed it out themselves), not ignorant to them.
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Old 02-28-2007, 04:17 PM   #44
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Still sounds a little too influental for my tastes.
Again, if I believe in intellectual conversation only, I'm a hypocrite. Deuteronomy ch. 6 explicitly outlines the educational requirements that parents are to abide by. My dance, then, becomes leading rather than driving. In the most final of analyses, I'll stand before God and answer for their direction, not their individual choices. What I have to offer them is my personal experience, what the Bible says, and whatever wisdom God affords. The rest is in His bailiwick. To put a dash of my faith in the conversation, Isaiah 54:13 says that all of my children shall be taught of the Lord, and great shall be their peace. I do what I must: believe and act accordingly.
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Old 02-28-2007, 04:25 PM   #45
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Though I still don't agree completely, I appraise the logic you use to get your point across. Not many succeed in doing so without getting the conversation counterpart onto his toes.

You will do well.
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Old 02-28-2007, 04:32 PM   #46
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Though I still don't agree completely, I appraise the logic you use to get your point across. Not many succeed in doing so without getting the conversation counterpart onto his toes.

You will do well.
A thousand thanks, Finn.
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:09 PM   #47
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"Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 93 A.D."
The writings of the Jewish historian Josephus on the allegedly historic Jesus have undeniably been adulterated by others with a pro-Christian spin.

"Tacitus, Annals, 116 A.D."
I'll let this
lay it out... saves me on a LOT of typing... at best the case is inconclusive for believing that Tacitus provides independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus.

"Pliny the Younger in a letter to Trajan, 112 A.D."
Even Christian historian Robert Wilken concludes, Pliny's "knowledge of the new movement must have been slight and largely second-hand."[Wilken The Christians as the Romans Saw Them New Haven: Yale, 1984, p. 16] And France writes, "for our purposes, looking for evidence about Jesus, [Pliny's letter] has nothing specific to offer. ... Pliny seems to have discovered nothing about him as a historical figure."[France The Evidence for Jesus 1986, p. 43.] Thus, Pliny's letter cannot be used as independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus.

So there's those struck down, one, two, and three Doc....

From here on in, I'll leave you and Finn to congratulate each other on your posts here...
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:25 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonHammond
"Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 93 A.D."
The writings of the Jewish historian Josephus on the allegedly historic Jesus have undeniably been adulterated by others with a pro-Christian spin.
Undeniably is a tremendous leap of 'faith' on your part...Josephus mentions Jesus again later in Antiquities (in reference to John the Baptist, I believe. I don't have my copy with me) with no further explanation of who he's referring to. Not permissable practice for as astute an historian as Flavius Josephus. As to the other two, I'll have to research your claims and comment later.
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Old 03-01-2007, 03:07 PM   #49
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"Josephus mentions Jesus again later in Antiquities"
Repeating oneself doesn't make a questionable reference valid...

and I'm outa this thread
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Old 03-01-2007, 04:03 PM   #50
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I'm outa this thread
You'll be missed.
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