The Great Jock Escape...

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
Yes and no. They are definitely not 'cash-in' books because they are Lucasfilm sanctioned and lovingly done, crammed full of interesting tidbits, details, drawings, letters, etc. Highly recommended! The problem is that they are also sprinkled with errors, inconsistencies and there is much conflicting information between the two. (Same goes for the "Greatest Adventures of IJ" book). Apart from that, the NEW information they provide, ex. Forrestal backstory, is all we have to go on. They're well done but some of the ideas have not been as fully scrutinized as we're able to do here. Always fun to throw into the mix, though!

I'm very curious about Machete Junction. As far as I know, that info is unique to "Ultimate Guide".

Thanks for the mini review, Stoo. They sound like the sort of background books I like. I am drawn to roleplaying books for similar reasons (Indy & Star Wars) as I really love the diagrams, cross-sections and maps. Most of the West End Games Star Wars RPG stuff is cannon, and has been used by authors of Star Wars novels as reference, However, with Indy, whilst the maps & diagrams are there, some of the writing is a bit suspect. I'll look out for the books you mention.

As for the snake, I'm happier to think he came aboard after Indy got off the aircraft.

emtiem, that's another way of looking at it. That Indy was also planning a double cross. That would make Belloq's statement about them correct: "You and I are very much alike." Yet, I still can't see Indy making that unnecessary journey as he doesn't need a guide to know how to find the temple. For that matter, if the 'Ultimate Guide', that Stoo quoted, is to be believed, Satipo and Barranca had been to the temple before, and didn't need a guide either. Maybe there is no definitive answer to this one. Maybe Lucas and Spielberg didn't think about it as much as we do! :)
 

emtiem

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
emtiem, that's another way of looking at it. That Indy was also planning a double cross. That would make Belloq's statement about them correct: "You and I are very much alike." Yet, I still can't see Indy making that unnecessary journey as he doesn't need a guide to know how to find the temple.

Does he not? I thought that's what the map business was all about. Rather: he could probably get there alone if he had both parts of the map, but they wouldn't give it to him. He may well know the general area they're going to so could give Jock instructions as where to meet him.

Montana Smith said:
For that matter, if the 'Ultimate Guide', that Stoo quoted, is to be believed, Satipo and Barranca had been to the temple before, and didn't need a guide either.

Maybe, but perhaps they never wanted to go in because they knew there were traps, and never had to because they always robbed the guys they were taking up there first. Perhaps they killed Forrestal and just told everyone that the traps got him! And Indy shows himself to be a tough customer when he whips the gun out of that chap's hand: they perhaps think that they'll have to go through with it this time and stand to make more cash if Indy actually does get the Idol!

Montana Smith said:
Maybe there is no definitive answer to this one. Maybe Lucas and Spielberg didn't think about it as much as we do! :)

Oh, I don't doubt it! Fun though, isn't it? :)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
emtiem said:
Does he not? I thought that's what the map business was all about. Rather: he could probably get there alone if he had both parts of the map, but they wouldn't give it to him. He may well know the general area they're going to so could give Jock instructions as where to meet him.

Yet Jock was so close that Indy could barely fail to miss the temple itself. That's why I began to think that the map showed a safe entrance into the temple. The Peruvians would meet Indy close to the temple and together they would attempt a risk-free entry, under the assumption that Forrestal had failed to do that.

It's certainly a fun puzzle, and with no definite answer. :)
 

JuniorJones

TR.N Staff Member
I must say, these theories are great.

The vast majority of most films wouldn't pass any logical driving test and the best answer is to simple accept what you have seen, put you hands over your eyes, rawplugs in your ears and sing LA LA LA LA never think about it again.

With that in mind, I present the LA LA LA solution -

Indy was on the run for 3 days, Speilberg just edited the sequence to a few minutes!!:whip:


So if you like another logic challenge explain how the vat of water in TOD followed him down miles and miles of hot moulton lava covered tunnels? Did it travel compacted?

LA LA LA LA LA LA
 

emtiem

Well-known member
JuniorJones said:
So if you like another logic challenge explain how the vat of water in TOD followed him down miles and miles of hot moulton lava covered tunnels? Did it travel compacted?

LA LA LA LA LA LA

Arf! Good question! My answer: it took the short way out: the tunnel that Short Round wanted to take ;)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
I should have taken Henry Jones Sr.'s advice and remembered my Charlemagne - well, at least remembered to consult my West End Games 'Raiders of the Lost Ark Sourcebook'. Its chock full of information and diagrams about the discovery of the temple, including background on Jock, Forrestal, Barranca, Satipo, Belloq, Machete Landing etc etc.

With reference to Jock it says: "Sometimes he brings his pets along with him, or picks them up out of the jungles he's often flying clients into."

After two months of asking questions, Jock discovered the high lake in the jungle where another pilot had taken Forrestal. Combined with the half of the map and other information gleaned from Forrestal's notes, Indy therefore knew the general place where Jock should land. Forrestal's notes recorded Machete Landing and the names of Barranca and Satipo.

Barranca and Satipo, though, had already heard Indy was interested in finding the temple and the idol within, and cabled him, offering to provide pack animals and guidance to the temple's vicinity. They also said they had half the map.

"Even though Jock had learned the general location of the lake where Forrestal landed on an earlier expedition, I [Indiana] could spend years searching for the temple in the twisted jungle undergrowth. I had to trust these two, and I had to pay them enough for them to trust me...We arranged to meet at a point on the lake a few weeks later. The two Peruvians were responsible for transporting supplies to the site..."

Barranca and Satipo are reported to be not brave enough or foolish enough to explore the area or venture inside to retrieve the idol, since most everyone they've taken to the area has died there. They intend to murder the first successful explorer and take the idol.

So, according to West End Games, Indy is flown by Jock to the lake and then meets up with the Peruvians and porters.The only trek Indy makes is exploring the vicinity, searching for the temple entrance. Meanwhile, Jock finds a friendly snake and names him Reggie. Whether he intended to bring him back with him is another matter, but Indy had to leave in a hurry and there was no time to remove Reggie before take-off.

It was just chance that the temple happened to be soclose to the location where Jock had landed with Indy. Barranca and Satipo must have known it was close, but finding it in the jungle could take a long time - hence the need for supplies.

Matt
 
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Zealot

New member
I always wondered what Belloq says to Howitos when he shows them the Idol above his head? Is it just gibberish or it has some meaning?
 

metalinvader

Well-known member
Zealot said:
I always wondered what Belloq says to Howitos when he shows them the Idol above his head? Is it just gibberish or it has some meaning?


"You could warn them,If only you spoke Hovitos"

Judging by that line I'm going to bet Belloq was pretty versed in the language and wasn't spouting off some gibberish.
 

Zealot

New member
metalinvader said:
"You could warn them,If only you spoke Hovitos"

Judging by that line I'm going to bet Belloq was pretty versed in the language and wasn't spouting off some gibberish.

I'm just wondering if Belloq is speaking gibberish for the sake of viewers or if the actor Paul Newman REALLY learned a few Hovitos words and he is now using them for the sake of authenticity?
 

emtiem

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
I should have taken Henry Jones Sr.'s advice and remembered my Charlemagne - well, at least remembered to consult my West End Games 'Raiders of the Lost Ark Sourcebook'. Its chock full of information and diagrams about the discovery of the temple, including background on Jock, Forrestal, Barranca, Satipo, Belloq, Machete Landing etc etc.

With reference to Jock it says: "Sometimes he brings his pets along with him, or picks them up out of the jungles he's often flying clients into."

After two months of asking questions, Jock discovered the high lake in the jungle where another pilot had taken Forrestal. Combined with the half of the map and other information gleaned from Forrestal's notes, Indy therefore knew the general place where Jock should land. Forrestal's notes recorded Machete Landing and the names of Barranca and Satipo.

Barranca and Satipo, though, had already heard Indy was interested in finding the temple and the idol within, and cabled him, offering to provide pack animals and guidance to the temple's vicinity. They also said they had half the map.

"Even though Jock had learned the general location of the lake where Forrestal landed on an earlier expedition, I [Indiana] could spend years searching for the temple in the twisted jungle undergrowth. I had to trust these two, and I had to pay them enough for them to trust me...We arranged to meet at a point on the lake a few weeks later. The two Peruvians were responsible for transporting supplies to the site..."

Barranca and Satipo are reported to be not brave enough or foolish enough to explore the area or venture inside to retrieve the idol, since most everyone they've taken to the area has died there. They intend to murder the first successful explorer and take the idol.

So, according to West End Games, Indy is flown by Jock to the lake and then meets up with the Peruvians and porters.The only trek Indy makes is exploring the vicinity, searching for the temple entrance. Meanwhile, Jock finds a friendly snake and names him Reggie. Whether he intended to bring him back with him is another matter, but Indy had to leave in a hurry and there was no time to remove Reggie before take-off.

It was just chance that the temple happened to be soclose to the location where Jock had landed with Indy. Barranca and Satipo must have known it was close, but finding it in the jungle could take a long time - hence the need for supplies.

Matt

Yeah, that works for me.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
emtiem said:
Yeah, that works for me.

There's also a whole page in the Sourcebook from 'Belloq's diary' on how Belloq tracked Indy's research in the US. Belloq wrote, "I then dropped a rather innocuous hint to Barranca and Satipo (anonymously, of course) that an American named Doctor Jones was seeking to continue Forrestal's work where he had left off - including the retrieval of the golden fertility goddess."

At this time Belloq didn't know the exact location ofthe temple, so he made contact with the Hovitos Indian tribe whom he had met years before during his search for the temple. "Of course, it helps if you know how to speak Hovitos, and if you're friends with the chieftain's son. I packed quite a few trinkets along as well, shiny gifts for my old Hovitos friends."

The temple, a day's hike from the Hovitos village, is revered by the Indians as it was the place where boys would undergo manhood rituals - proving their worthiness by avoiding the traps to come face to face with the idol (though not to pick it up, hence the boulder trap...)

Belloq writes: "...when I cleverly told them [the Hovitos] that others - outsiders - intended to violate the legendary sacred ground of their ancestors, they were more than eager to lead me into the valley." Yet they would still not take him to the temple itself.

However, "...tracking Jones to the exact location was rather easy once in the valley. The sound of the plane overhead indicated he was landing on the lake, and a pistol shot an hour or so later brought me directly to the temple site."

So, from Belloq's diary, after landing Indy only trekked "an hour or so" before finding the temple.

When Barranca fled he showed the Hovitos where the others were, indicating that Belloq did not bring the Hovitos to capture Indy, they just turned up, threatening to complicate Belloq's theft of the idol.

"Too bad I was able to slip away with the idol while they were chasing him. I guess I won't be welcome in the village for a long, long time."

I had forgotten just how in-depth the West End Games Raiders Sourcebook went.

Matt
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
I should have taken Henry Jones Sr.'s advice and remembered my Charlemagne - well, at least remembered to consult my West End Games 'Raiders of the Lost Ark Sourcebook'. Its chock full of information and diagrams about the discovery of the temple, including background on Jock, Forrestal, Barranca, Satipo, Belloq, Machete Landing etc etc.
So that's where the name, Machete Landing/Junction, comes from! According to "Ultimate Guide" it's Machete Junction on a river (with a waterfall upstream) and in the "Sourcebook" it's Machete Landing on a lake. In the film, it's clearly a river so if one puts all the references together, Jock is waiting in a river that soon flows into a lake. The village in the UG painting could be the Hotivos' and not Barranca & Satipo's place.

Thanks for posting all those excerpts, Matt.:D I don't own any of the role-playing stuff so it's much appreciated. Would love to know more about the Forrestal related info so maybe I'll resurrect his thread with the "Ulimate Guide" bits because I'm curious to know if West End Games is the source. Is there any more background on Jock?
Montana Smith said:
With reference to Jock it says: "Sometimes he brings his pets along with him, or picks them up out of the jungles he's often flying clients into."
There we go, sort of. I wonder what else is in Jock's menagerie?:)
Montana Smith said:
Barranca and Satipo are reported to be not brave enough or foolish enough to explore the area or venture inside to retrieve the idol, since most everyone they've taken to the area has died there. They intend to murder the first successful explorer and take the idol.
This makes sense. Barranca's line, "If they knew we were here, they would have killed us already" had always led me to believe that they NEVER go there.:dead:
Montana Smith said:
When Barranca fled he showed the Hovitos where the others were, indicating that Belloq did not bring the Hovitos to capture Indy, they just turned up, threatening to complicate Belloq's theft of the idol.
Really? That's not the way I see it since Barranca was most likey killed immediately while running away from the Hovitos. All the darts in his back suggest this and the Hovitos would have known where to look for the others. I can understand if they didn't want Belloq to know where the temple was but can't picture them showing up there seperately.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
So that's where the name, Machete Landing/Junction, comes from! According to "Ultimate Guide" it's Machete Junction on a river (with a waterfall upstream) and in the "Sourcebook" it's Machete Landing on a lake. In the film, it's clearly a river so if one puts all the references together, Jock is waiting in a river that soon flows into a lake. The village in the UG painting could be the Hotivos' and not Barranca & Satipo's place.

Thanks for posting all those excerpts, Matt.:D I don't own any of the role-playing stuff so it's much appreciated. Would love to know more about the Forrestal related info so maybe I'll resurrect his thread with the "Ulimate Guide" bits because I'm curious to know if West End Games is the source. Is there any more background on Jock?

Like Henry Jones Sr., I finally remembered to make use of what was already at my disposal. This book has been sitting on my shelf, but I never took the trouble to study it properly until now. The book is dated 1994, if that helps.

Machete Landing is an old mission, and comrpises a river house and open-walled storehouse looked after by a man named Paco. There is a rickety dock with Paco's steamboat. Of the old mission the church is in ruins and the old school has been turned into a stable for the pack animals. The only other building is 'Tequila Flats' - a rustic bar owned by Barranca and Satipo where they can put travellers up overnight.

The Hovitos village comprises one gigantic circular thatch-roofed building, under which all the villagers live. This is based upon real Amazonian villages I've seen in documentaries.

The original map of the temple was discovered by the 19th century explorer McHenry, who made it from pictographs found at the ruined Tec'na'al city complex which is two days' hike from the valley of the Chachapoyan idol temple itself.

Forrestal and Indy had been competitors since Indy's early days in archaeology, though they went to different universities. Indy remarks that "Forrestal must have hada virtual intelligence network throughout the world...Forrestal spent a lot more time in Central and South America than I had.He participated in digs at Aztec and Mayan sites, and was fluent in more Indian dialects than I knew existed. I'm sure he had contacts from Lima to Mexico City feeding him information, clues and maps to excavation site all along. So when he disappeared a little over a year ago, I was surprised. I knew he had been working to find an acient temple rumored to have a solid gold statue of the Chachapoyan fertility goddess, and had retrieved a treasure trove of artifacts said to have come from sites near the secret temple...First I contacted Princeton, where Forrestal had been teaching ancient history and archaeology. The history department was keeping his office under lock and key, but after a few months, when it was apparent Forrestal wasn't coming back, they sifted through all the junk and depositied all his papers in the library's archives. A quick trip down to New Jersey abd a few hours rummaging through Forrestal's notes in the library revealed a few notes on the ancient Chachapoyan warriors and their fertility goddess cult, as well as the names of two people and a town: Barranca and Satipo in Machete Landing. He also had reference to a volume in the University of Chicago library by a 19th Century American named McHenry who spent most of his life expploring the South American jungles - apparently Forrestal found some sort of map in there."

Indy had meanwhile "cabled an old stunt pilot friend" named Jock, "who was hopping around in Soth America doing various aerial jobs for American businesses. I asked him to check with his pilot buddies to see if anybody had flown Forrestal anywhere into the Peruvian highland jungles. After about two months Jock cabled back that he met a pilot who flew someone fitting Forrestal's description to a high lake in the Peruvian jungle - and Jock even copied the flight plan on one of his navigational maps for me..."

"At the University of Chicago I evaded suspicious librarians and jumped back into the stacks to find the musty old volume on McHenry that Forrestal had consulted. Forrestal had been clumsy, and had dogeared important pages and pencilled notes in the margins...but the map was missing."

Marcus Brody showed Indy a box of full of McHenry's memoirs in his museum archives "...and we found part of a map..."

At that point Indy receives the cable from Barranca and Satipo (Belloq had initiated this by telling them of Indy's interest in the temple).

And the rest is as quoted in my earlier posts. Indy flies in to the lake, meets the Peruvians, porters and pack animals, and they trek for one or two hours whilst Belloq is also tracking them. Jock finds a snake. (When they take off again after the dash to the lake, Jock takes Reggie from Indy and puts him into the pilot's section of the aircraft - this was in the novel, can't remember if he did that in the film).

As for Jock, the WEG Sourcebook says he "...used to be a stunt pilot in America's Midwest, flying airshows and aerial demonstrations. Flying in South America didn't promise more money than stunt flying, but the pace is a bit more attuned to Jock's personal tempo - besides, there are rumors of a flight-related tragedy in Jock's past. Jock enjoys life's simple pleasures - like fishing, listening to baseball on the radio, or playing with the numerous pets he keeps at his home somewhere in Venezuela."

Stoo said:
Really? That's not the way I see it since Barranca was most likey killed immediately while running away from the Hovitos. All the darts in his back suggest this and the Hovitos would have known where to look for the others. I can understand if they didn't want Belloq to know where the temple was but can't picture them showing up there seperately.

It was Belloq's supposition that Barranca lead the Hovitos to him and Indy, maybe they merely followed Barranca's trail back to its source after killing him. Belloq had already left the Hovitos to track Indy alone, since the Indians would not show him the secret temple. The Indians, however, needed to be in the vicinity in order to prevent the theft, that Belloq had warned them of, from taking place.

Matt
 

arkfinder

New member
Oh man Lucas film usually have plot holes in them. Sometimes he can bend them other times he can't. Still doesn't take anything away from the film.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
arkfinder said:
Oh man Lucas film usually have plot holes in them. Sometimes he can bend them other times he can't. Still doesn't take anything away from the film.

Yes, but the beauty of all the West End Games background material is that 'The Great Jock Escape' no longer has any plot holes! :D

The WEG ROTLA Sourcebook is Lucasfilm authorized, and explains the background to what we see in the film. Indy needed guides to locate the overgrown temple (it only took one or two hours in the end) and it turned out not to be that far from where Jock landed with him. Hence he was able to make a quick dash back to the lake. Jock was surprised at how quickly the job was completed - he was looking forward to an extended fishing trip.
 
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Stoo

Well-known member
arkfinder said:
Oh man Lucas film usually have plot holes in them. Sometimes he can bend them other times he can't. Still doesn't take anything away from the film.
Where are the plot holes in this scene? Earlier in this thread the 3-day-fresh poison was mentioned. Poison that is 3 days fresh doesn't mean that Indy's party has been travelling for that amount of time and everything else can be (and has been) explained.
Montana Smith said:
As for Jock, the WEG Sourcebook says he "...used to be a stunt pilot in America's Midwest, flying airshows and aerial demonstrations. Flying in South America didn't promise more money than stunt flying, but the pace is a bit more attuned to Jock's personal tempo - besides, there are rumors of a flight-related tragedy in Jock's past. Jock enjoys life's simple pleasures - like fishing, listening to baseball on the radio, or playing with the numerous pets he keeps at his home somewhere in Venezuela."
Again, Matt, thanks for posting all that info. Too much to comment on but for now...I wonder what Jock intended to do with the fish that he planned on catching? Cook 'em and eat 'em or attempt to bring them home as "pets"?:p
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
I wonder what Jock intended to do with the fish that he planned on catching? Cook 'em and eat 'em or attempt to bring them home as "pets"?:p

Well, if he was going to bring them back, swimming round his feet in the cockpit, it brings a whole new meaning to the term 'amphibious aircraft'!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
I wonder what Jock intended to do with the fish that he planned on catching? Cook 'em and eat 'em or attempt to bring them home as "pets"?:p

Well, if he was going to bring them back, swimming round his feet in the cockpit, it brings a whole new meaning to the term 'amphibious aircraft'!

Stoo, I just tried to send you a private email, but your storage quota is full!

Matt
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Machete Landing is an old mission, and comrpises a river house and open-walled storehouse looked after by a man named Paco. There is a rickety dock with Paco's steamboat. Of the old mission the church is in ruins and the old school has been turned into a stable for the pack animals. The only other building is 'Tequila Flats' - a rustic bar owned by Barranca and Satipo where they can put travellers up overnight.

As for Jock, the WEG Sourcebook says he "...used to be a stunt pilot in America's Midwest, flying airshows and aerial demonstrations. Flying in South America didn't promise more money than stunt flying, but the pace is a bit more attuned to Jock's personal tempo - besides, there are rumors of a flight-related tragedy in Jock's past. Jock enjoys life's simple pleasures - like fishing, listening to baseball on the radio, or playing with the numerous pets he keeps at his home somewhere in Venezuela."
These descriptions are giving me some great ideas for some "fan-made" images. CUSTOMIZERS TAKE NOTE!:whip: (You must see the custom diorama that mfisher did of Jock at his workbench. Can't find it right now but it's AMAZING!(y))
Montana Smith said:
The Hovitos village comprises one gigantic circular thatch-roofed building, under which all the villagers live. This is based upon real Amazonian villages I've seen in documentaries.
That's the way it's depicted in the "Ultimate Guide" (with 5 or 6 huts surrounding it). I "bumped" the Forrestal thread so we can continue talking about him there if you (or anyone else) want to.

My Raven Inbox has some room now so if you want to PM, go ahead.;)
 

The Drifter

New member
Montana Smith said:
Well, if he was going to bring them back, swimming round his feet in the cockpit, it brings a whole new meaning to the term 'amphibious aircraft'!

Maybe he grew bored while waiting on Indy and decided to practice catch-and-release.
 
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