The Tree of Life

Aaron H

Moderator Emeritus
Maybe that is what sends Indy off in search of the Garden. Perhaps, the Soviets aren't after the Tree, but instead it is an attempt by them to have the world's most powerful (whatever) and they think they can find it there. The Tree would be just the "side trip", so to speak.
 

bob

New member
I am not sure that the movements in archaeology will play much part in Indy IV as somehow i doubt that Indy will change his nature it could be good just to show how much of a dinsoaur Indy will be by the 50's but anyway the new archeaological practices tended only to apply to the west at this time i believe it was not until the rise of nationalist states in the rest of the world that the protection of artifacts (or at least not selling them to the west) came into operation.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
It seems that we are now in a very interesting dilemma. The reality is that Indy is a true archeologist. "That belongs in a museum" is his mantra and it lies very close to his heart. But we know that Indy will sacrifice his love for humanity (Marion, the children, his dad). I do not see him deviating from his character in this respect. I still am not convinced that he wanted to find the grail. I also think that his character will not be one to adventure all across the globe. I think bob is right in the respect that we may see Indy at a dig sight in some unknown country, directing his students or some workers on the art of digging, and possibly making less then respectable trades for items found at the sight with a government that doesn't want him there, but knows he can find impossible artifacts. The idea that Indy is a reluctant hero has been tossed around in other threads, and I think the same will be true of him in IV.

The problem is in the tangible artifact, worthy of the search by whomever. Since I think we can all agree that Eden may not be a primary goal of Indy, how then could the aforementioned artifacts pose as a problem for our reluctant hero?

Is it possible, as lorn suggests, that he would be at a dig trying to find a common thread toward Eden? Could the idea of a cold war play into this theroy? Is it possible that the TREE is a seconday object, a metaphor of life that is gained through the wisdom of failure? Could the soviets be looking for the FLAMING SWORD because it has the power to guard Eden from all sides? Until we can define the artifact concretely, (and all of it's consequences, positive and negative) all of the speculation is this thread is just that. I mean even if this concept isn't used it would be nice to think we all had a part in a story that could be put into print at some time...
 

lornconner

New member
OK, here's an idea...

This ties in a little bit to the computer game "Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine", but I liked the concept for the game, so here goes:

apalehorse just made a very interesting observation - What if somebody took the flaming sword scripture literally, and were looking for it, thinking it was an ancient weapon?

The inscription that I mentioned earlier was a tablet that pointed to the location of Eden. It was located at or near Babylon.

What else do we know Babylon for?

The great tower.

The Tower at Babylon was struck down by the power of God for the arrogance of the people to try to reach Heaven.

In the Computer Game, they speculated that the tower actually housed a great machine, but could not the tower have been struck down by the Flaming Sword?

This makes the race to Eden a search for a weapon, although their interpretation of the flaming sword could always be wrong.




Lorn
 

lornconner

New member
A bit of a clarification on my previous post -

What I should've said was Could not the Tower of Babylon have housed an ancient weapon? And could the use of that weapon have been the cause of the destruction of the Tower itself?

And once the plaque is found detailing the location of the supposed location of Eden, and scripture speaks of a flaming sword, could the people who located the plaque not conclude that The Machine housed in the Tower of Babylon might've had a twin weapon located at the Garden of Eden?

The dig at the location of the tower could make for some very interesting archaelogy.

While this plotline would be very similar to Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine (a possible strike AGAINST the idea), it does lead to a lot of interesting story possibilities.

It gives you the archaeology that you're looking for...the possible opponents for Indy (if you buy into the communists searching for an ancient weapon), and could explain how Indy would make for the Garden of Eden without actually seeking the Tree of Life.

I can see the Soviets excavating the tower site, the American government contacting Indy to try and figure out what's going on, and Indy locating the plaque that leads to the location of Eden. After that, it's a race.

Is it a Raiders clone? Maybe...it's also got a lot of elements of Infernal Machine. Where else can we take the story?




Lorn
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
I really like the tree of life serving as the philosphical aspect of the film, as well as the sword of fire being the tangible, though deadly artifact. Not only would we as fans get a look into how Indy is realizing more and more his mortality, but we also get a very believable weapon which could be harnessed for evil. It is a McGuffin which may never have to be fully explored within the context of one movie.

The Tower of Babel as a holding tank for such an artifact at this point is a stretch for me. Here are a few reasons why:

1) The Tower of Babel was man's attempt to come together lest they be scattered all around the world. They spoke few words under one language.

2) God, by His own admission nothing that man proposes to do will be impossible (WOW) except live forever (no tree of life, available...) because of the unity of communication and purpose [internet?]

3) The Tower comes after the flood, and by my logic, after the separation of Pangeia as well as the tilt and creation of the seasons.

4) Since the Garden would have been altered by the flood, it would be highly unlikely that man would have found the sword (the fullness of the word) in order to build a Tower which was proclaimed to make a name for themselves.

Dang it lorn, not you got me thinking of strong rebutals, as well as some possible interpretation of prophecy....!

The only arguement I have is that the Word of God hadn't been fully revealed until after the coming of Christ, and the writing of the new testament. I might argue the writing of the Torah but that is a stretch with as much as I know about theology, so a full understanding of the way past the sword would not be available at the time of construction of the Tower.

The only thing that makes the Tower an interesting sub plot to the whole beginnning of time, Eden, Tree of Life thread we have here is the Babel means "The gate of God" and Balel in Hebrew means "confusion"

Who knows, maybe the Tower of Babel was one of the first original archeological sights (near the believed sight of Eden at the time) and whose sole puropse was to get man back into Heaven with God, only they did not have the knowledge of the sword at the time...
 

lornconner

New member
Hi apalehorse,

I think you may've misinterpreted some of my idea, so I'm going to clarify here.

I'm going to use communists as the adversaries for this theory, though really it could be anybody. Communists just happen to be convenient for the time period.

Firstly, I agree with you that the Sword of Fire represents the word of God. The scripture states that God had placed "a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

In many biblical passages, there are dual meanings recorded. We can interpret this to mean that the way through the Guardians of the Garden (cherubim) can only be made by coming by the Word of God.

However, it can also be interpreted to mean that at the Garden itself is a guardian "which turns every way" and will destroy any who attempt to breach it.

The thing that I keep focusing on is the plaque that was located near Babylon which pointed to the location of the Garden.

You're correct in that the Tower of Babylon and the Confusion of the tongues happened much later....but I'm looking at it this way -

The tower itself was built to try and reach the Heavens themselves...God had given his command to go out to the corners of the globe, and man, in defiance, stayed right where they were at.

The tower was struck down, and the confusion of the tongues ocurred, forcing man to scatter with those whom he could communicate with.

That's the literal translation.

Heres' where I take artistic license.

Imagine that the plaque that I spoke of earlier had been located near the ruins of the tower of Babel. Imagine that the communists were the ones who discovered the plaque that pointed out the location of the Garden. Now imagine that there was another part of the plaque that spoke of Babylonians building a defensive mechanism housed within the tower itself, and how this great machine led to the destruction of the tower and the spreading of the peoples from Babylon.

Taking these two pieces of the plaque together, the Communists could conclude that the device housed in the tower was similar to the Sword of Fire referenced in Genesis...a weapon, in an ancient arms race.

Seeking to capitalize on this to use in their OWN burgeoning arms race, they search for the location of Eden in the hopes that the Sword of Fire is actually another weapon. (Of course, it is not....but that's part of what makes this episode interesting)

This makes the story a bit of a cautionary tale...if you can imagine the Babylonians building a tower up to the Heavens to thumb their nose at God, you can also imagine them building a great weapon within it. They were struck down for their pride, and forced to disperse.

When man (represented by the Russian and American governments in a new arms race) seek the power of a weapon, they are likewise humbled (or destroyed) to discover that the power of God lies not in weapons, but in knowledge.

Those who are too arrogant to come before God by the Sword of Fire would be destroyed by the weapons of God, which no man can wield.



Lorn
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
I am not trying to beat a dead horse, I swear. but all of the stuff within this thread have sparked a unquenchable desire to understand some of the most misunderstood passages of writing we have.

Let me compliment you lorn for the interpretation of the sword of fire. That was your idea, not mine. My goal, ultimately was to see if the tree of life has merit, especially from a biotech point of view. I am not disappointed about the way this has weaved itself, though. Even some older members have complimented on the merit of such a musing. We should all be proud.

What I want to address now, if it?s not too much of a departure, is why tell us of a Garden. I truly hope we are not too far into the thread that such a question would be ignored. I mean really. WHAT?S THE POINT OF TELLING US WE HAD PARADISE BUT LOST IT, AND IT CANNOT BE FOUND?

I don?t want to get too theological right now, but here is my thinking. For ordinary men, like all of us at the Raven here, we ALL get to see Eden when we die.

Yep, ALL of us. It?s that light we all see, the path, voices, the aliens in Ghost, and the whole interpretation of those experiences. SO, what do we have?assuming this thread is worthy of screen time? [If so lorn, I think you and I should at least be invited to Hollywood, if not given a paycheck. Lol]

1950?s arms race.
Garden of Eden in the middle of 4 rivers, two that we know.
Rivers headwaters are near Caspian Sea (?God? always starts at the beginning).
Babylon plaque was origin of Eden inscribed.
Sword of Fire equals death.
Kill the Capitalistic bastards.
Indy?s protégé works with Red?s.
Indy must save the world from being a cog in the machine.
Indy finds the Garden of Eden (as we all do).
Indy wins but loses his soul or dies. (Thanks Attila)????.


You see, Eden is found by all at death, so in order for Indy to find it he must die by the Sword of Fire.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
BUT WAIT!!!!!

Indy drank of the cup of Christ, and proceeded in the Word of God in LC.

That is his redeeming factor in "Indy Noir" and he lives to tell the tale in the YIC...
 
I believe that the concept of Eden is that we all were created and existed in the 'Source'. Along the way our ego removed us from the 'source' and we existed materialistically from that point on. The mythological impact of the story of Eden has a moral message about the importance of trying to find the 'source' or rediscover the 'source' again.

This is based on the usual spiritual shedding the ego kind of theology.

As a side note, whatever happened to Eden representing the origin of mankind? I mean, does it hold the secret of whether we are extraterrestrial in origin? Or will it reveal that we are much older than previously thought?



[Edited by thegreatimposter on 06-28-2003 at 09:45 am]
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
What about the fact that Wu Han talked to Indy about the Great Unknown mystery. Somehow I think Eden represents that idea.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
apalehorse said:
What about the fact that Wu Han talked to Indy about the Great Unknown mystery. Somehow I think Eden represents that idea.

Hmm...sorry, but I think the Great Unknown mystery is the afterlife, not the origin of life.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
On the surface, I have to agree with you. But what about the idea that Eden is only seen when a person dies.
(You know, the circle of life) sorry that was a gross deviation.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Has anyone heard of the ancient eucalyptus tree in Iraq, that was burned by Hussain during the scorched earth policy he promoted? It was called "Adam's Tree" and is now in ruin. Am I the onlyone who has heard of this?
 

Venture

New member
A thought...

All the movies seem to have culminated in a kind of spiritual journey for Indy. He realized (albeit briefly) the power of the supernatural in ToD, he actually captured the Ark, he had the Grail in his hands. Perhaps just seeing the Tree of Life, even if it's over the shoulder of the cherub, could bring some closure to the journey. It would have to end in a cryptic one liner from the angel, of course. And that far-away, introspective stare from Indy...
 

intergamer

New member
i don't know much about it, but maybe we could do seeds or leaves or fruit from the tree of life, or something

it would make more sense: they could be left over, they could be found in a sort of archeological dig, and you can carry them around.
 

bob

New member
intergamer said:
i don't know much about it, but maybe we could do seeds or leaves or fruit from the tree of life, or something

it would make more sense: they could be left over, they could be found in a sort of archeological dig, and you can carry them around.

Hardly spectacular though....
 

Venture

New member
bob said:
intergamer said:
i don't know much about it, but maybe we could do seeds or leaves or fruit from the tree of life, or something

it would make more sense: they could be left over, they could be found in a sort of archeological dig, and you can carry them around.

Hardly spectacular though....

The seeds could just be the impetus. The end result could be very spectacular.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
See Revelation 22:1

I think it is intersting that the Tree's leaves promise to heal the nations. That could be an interesting twist in an era marked by the cold war. Impetus enough to seek, no?
 
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