Why do you hate The Last Crusade?

Stoo

Well-known member
HJTHX1138 said:
Still, ToD broke that tradition fairly well, so what you're saying is you wanted to see something entirely different again?
"Temple of Doom" didn't break any Indy tradition because there was NO Indy tradition at the time. A select few of certain Marvel comics might have helped reinforce the 'formula' (which I bought religiously) but...to the general movie-going public, there was no formula because the 2 movies weren't the same. Audiences didn't know what to expect! Yes, in '89, I was hoping to see something very different from the previous two entries. Hence, the letdown.:(
HJTHX1138 said:
Yeah, the Grail Knight is kinda odd, but the instant you saw him, you knew the Grail was real and worked. Gave it a bit of mysticism, but there were probably a ton of different ways to do that without a physical Grail Knight.
The living Grail Knight was a disappointing inclusion. At the instant I first saw him, I wanted to spit!:sick: How can fans trash the appearance of an alien but gleefully accept the Grail Knight? One is just as unbelievable as the other.:rolleyes:
 

HJTHX1138

New member
Stoo said:
The living Grail Knight was a disappointing inclusion. At the instant I first saw him, I wanted to spit!:sick: How can fans trash the appearance of an alien but gleefully accept the Grail Knight? One is just as unbelievable as the other.:rolleyes:

Well, a knight probably fits the theme better than an alien. At least he was amusing and had a purpose being there with the grail.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
HJTHX1138 said:
Well, a knight probably fits the theme better than an alien.
Finding a man who has lived for hundreds of years is just as incredulous as seeing an alien face-to-face. Many fans have a problem with the aliens in "Crystal Skull" but think that "Last Crusade" is the greatest thing since sliced bread.:rolleyes: THE GRAIL KNIGHT WAS AN AWFUL IDEA! Why do people think he was O.K.?:confused: (The existance of the Grail Knight helps make the alien in "Skull" a bit more acceptable.)
HJTHX1138 said:
At least he was amusing and had a purpose being there with the grail.
How was the Grail Knight "amusing"?:confused: (And why would his "amusing" character be a good thing?):confused: Not sure about you...but I'd rather that the climax didn't feature any humour. Kind of spoils the mood, don't you think?
 

HJTHX1138

New member
Stoo said:
Finding a man who has lived for hundreds of years is just as incredulous as seeing an alien face-to-face. Many fans have a problem with the aliens in "Crystal Skull" but think that "Last Crusade" is the greatest thing since sliced bread.:rolleyes: THE GRAIL KNIGHT WAS AN AWFUL IDEA! Why do people think he was O.K.?:confused: (The existance of the Grail Knight helps make the alien in "Skull" a bit more acceptable.)
How was the Grail Knight "amusing"?:confused: (And why would his "amusing" character be a good thing?):confused: Not sure about you...but I'd rather that the climax didn't feature any humour. Kind of spoils the mood, don't you think?

I guess it does ruin the mood, but "He chose . . . poorly" is probably one of the best one-liners in that movie.

The Grail made him immortal, doesn't that explain it?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
"Temple of Doom" didn't break any Indy tradition because there was NO Indy tradition at the time...to the general movie-going public, there was no formula because the 2 movies weren't the same. Audiences didn't know what to expect!

TOD was a brave move away from a position of safety. I think it still stands proudly.

However, I wasn't disappointed by TLC's return to a ROTLA like formula but:

Stoo said:
The living Grail Knight was a disappointing inclusion. At the instant I first saw him, I wanted to spit!:sick: How can fans trash the appearance of an alien but gleefully accept the Grail Knight? One is just as unbelievable as the other.:rolleyes:

I never liked him either. To me he represents the Shorty of TOD or the Mutt of KOTCS, i.e. an annoying character I could do without.

Stoo said:
Finding a man who has lived for hundreds of years is just as incredulous as seeing an alien face-to-face. Many fans have a problem with the aliens in "Crystal Skull" but think that "Last Crusade" is the greatest thing since sliced bread. THE GRAIL KNIGHT WAS AN AWFUL IDEA! Why do people think he was O.K.? (The existance of the Grail Knight helps make the alien in "Skull" a bit more acceptable.)

He was a useless knight as well. He was pointless. He'd been sitting there all those years guarding something that couldn't be taken from the temple. And when he did get to be all knightly he just fell over.

Stoo said:
How was the Grail Knight "amusing"? :confused:

He was neither as amusing or as effective as The Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail :

King Arthur: [after Arthur's cut off both of the Black Knight's arms] Look, you stupid Bastard. You've got no arms left.
Black Knight: Yes I have.
King Arthur: *Look*!
Black Knight: It's just a flesh wound.

[the Black Knight continues to threaten Arthur despite getting both his arms and one of his legs cut off]
Black Knight: Right, I'll do you for that!
King Arthur: You'll what?
Black Knight: Come here!
King Arthur: What are you gonna do, bleed on me?
Black Knight: I'm invincible!
King Arthur: ...You're a loony.

The knight was pathetic, but so caught up in his redundant duty that he was no longer aware of it.

Damn those cruel aliens for tricking him so.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
I never liked him either. To me he represents the Shorty of TOD or the Mutt of KOTCS, i.e. an annoying character I could do without.
I think the role of the Grail Knight is less significant than Short Round or Mutt. So I think wether he works or not has less impact to the overall movie. I think KOTCS suffers more from Mutt’s underplayed relationship with Indy than TLC does from a dodgy Grail Knight.

I’d agree that the character of Grail Knight himself (as played) is a little comical/unbelievable… However he does serve a purpose in providing much needed exposition at that point in the story. That being the case, I wonder if the issue is more to do with how the character is played rather than having an immortal Grail Knight per se. I always thought (when I was a kid) that the Grail Knight would have worked better if, rather than looking like an old man, he were semi decayed and a tad bit scary in appearance. Would that have improved it?


Montana Smith said:
He was a useless knight as well. He was pointless. He'd been sitting there all those years guarding something that couldn't be taken from the temple. And when he did get to be all knightly he just fell over.
I’m assuming that’s why he was so keen to hand over the mantle to Indy. He’d served his time. At that stage he was less a protector and more of a janitor/caretaker.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Stoo said:
No control aspired to. Just putting my heart & soul into something I love very much...and that 'something' is, The Raven.
I think there are dictionaries that define word "obsession" with those words. In the negative sense.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Darth Vile said:
That being the case, I wonder if the issue is more to do with how the character is played rather than having an immortal Grail Knight per se. I always thought (when I was a kid) that the Grail Knight would have worked better if, rather than looking like an old man, he were semi decayed and a tad bit scary in appearance. Would that have improved it?

Since the Grail was just keeping him alive, rather than keeping him young (unless he really was that old when he first starting drinking the local brew), then he could have been better presented as the decaying undead. We know from Henry Sr. that one drink won't keep a person alive.

Indy needing to defeat him in combat could then have been more 'heroic'. Yet the idea that any man defeating the Knight in combat was worthy of the Grail is an odd idea if the Grail was really the cup of Christ, the promoter of peace. Same goes for the deadly traps which will catch the inquisitive innocent. The ignorant are doomed, as the missionaries would say when they went into the dark places of the earth to collect souls. However, the whole set-up seems much more in-keeping with something unrelated to Christianity.

Darth Vile said:
I’m assuming that’s why he was so keen to hand over the mantle to Indy. He’d served his time. At that stage he was less a protector and more of a janitor/caretaker.

Whoever tricked the Grail Knight into performing his task sold him the rough end of a pineapple. Something akin to Heracles tricking Atlas.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
Indy needing to defeat him in combat could then have been more 'heroic'. Yet the idea that any man defeating the Knight in combat was worthy of the Grail is an odd idea if the Grail was really the cup of Christ, the promoter of peace. Same goes for the deadly traps which will catch the inquisitive innocent. The ignorant are doomed, as the missionaries would say when they went into the dark places of the earth to collect souls. However, the whole set-up seems much more in-keeping with something unrelated to Christianity.

Whoever tricked the Grail Knight into performing his task sold him the rough end of a pineapple. Something akin to Heracles tricking Atlas.

I know what you mean... but my assumption is that whilst the Grail may very well be the "Cup of Christ" (and by association had supernatural/Godly powers), the temple, the traps etc. were of human origin, and were a consequence of 'Man's' need to understand/comprehend those powers i.e. they often conflict/contradict the underlying philosophies of Christianity.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Darth Vile said:
I know what you mean... but my assumption is that whilst the Grail may very well be the "Cup of Christ" (and by association had supernatural/Godly powers), the temple, the traps etc. were of human origin, and were a consequence of 'Man's' need to understand/comprehend those powers i.e. they often conflict/contradict the underlying philosophies of Christianity.

Which leads to the question of who created the bridge. It was more than camouflage paintwork, or else Indy colud have seen it as he moved his head.

And something consigned the power of the Grail to within the Temple limits. I suspect the Temple of the Sun was built in collusion with whatever was behind the power of the cup.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
Which leads to the question of who created the bridge. It was more than camouflage paintwork, or else Indy colud have seen it as he moved his head.

And something consigned the power of the Grail to within the Temple limits. I suspect the Temple of the Sun was built in collusion with whatever was behind the power of the cup.

Yep - A bit of poetic licence I think for that one. However, after KOTCS, we can now start speculating that there was a mother ship hidden beneath the ground which naturally meant that the power of the transmography emitter... erhhh 'Grail'... was limited to the confines of the holo room... erhhh 'temple'.... ;)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Darth Vile said:
Yep - A bit of poetic licence I think for that one. However, after KOTCS, we can now start speculating that there was a mother ship hidden beneath the ground which naturally meant that the power of the transmography emitter... erhhh 'Grail'... was limited to the confines of the holo room... erhhh 'temple'.... ;)

And the wonderful thing is that the clues were laid down in 1978. :D
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Well since we are talking grail knight vs aliens I feel the aliens were more intimidating than the knight by far. Also fans that consider LC the best in the series should have no complaints with KOTCS since they both are are cut from the same cloth. (Though LC is better by leaps and bounds)
 

Temple Raider

Active member
I like TLC a lot but I do feel it's overrated and not as good as Raiders and TOD for me. It's fun, but as others have said, it feels like an uninspired retread of Raiders with the use of the Nazis again, a Christian/biblical artifact, etc. and I'm also not a fan of it's much lighter, campier tone. I much prefer the darker, more foreboding tone and dangerous feeling Raiders and TOD have. The action scenes don't quite pack the same punch as the first two and the climax is disappointing compared with the first two, and I also didn't like how Sallah and Brody were reduced to useless, bumbling comic relief. I also think TLC has the weakest and least memorable villains as well. For me, the likes of Donovan, Vogel and Elsa don't even touch Toht, Belloq and Mola Ram.

But TLC definitely has a lot to like about it as well, the best aspect being the chemistry between Ford and Connery, the movie is never boring and despite the action not being as exciting as the first two, there's still good action scenes in it like the tank chase, and I also like the trials Indy faces near the end. It's a great movie but I don't think it's as good as the first two, which I can watch at any time and always enjoy.
 
justin

:cool:
Stoo said:
Finding a man who has lived for hundreds of years is just as incredulous as seeing an alien face-to-face. Many fans have a problem with the aliens in "Crystal Skull" but think that "Last Crusade" is the greatest thing since sliced bread.:rolleyes: THE GRAIL KNIGHT WAS AN AWFUL IDEA! Why do people think he was O.K.?:confused: (The existance of the Grail Knight helps make the alien in "Skull" a bit more acceptable.)
How was the Grail Knight "amusing"?:confused: (And why would his "amusing" character be a good thing?):confused: Not sure about you...but I'd rather that the climax didn't feature any humour. Kind of spoils the mood, don't you think?
bad man kills him and then indana joes grab the god gold cup drinkout of the gold cup
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
I've seen alot of people on IMDB throw 'The Last Crusade' under the bus over the last few years, and elsewhere online like Facebook. Not sure why, it's always been in alot of people's favor. Nobody really likes anything on the internet, I guess. Even 'Casablanca' gets a fair amoung of hate.
:p

Regardless, 'Crusade' remains amongst the Top 2 Indy Films for most people, anyway. It did isolate 'Temple' by re-using the formula but then again, 'Kingdom' is just as guilty of that, too.

'Crusade' sits at #3 for me, below 'Kingdom' and right above 'Temple'. It remains a brilliant adventure film albeit lacking in action, but very well done and the score is just amazing. It's fallen from grace for me over the last few years after I applied alot more criticism towards it that I applied to 'Kingdom' when it came out. I'll always say that though I absolutely adore the sequels, I often say they work better as a Trilogy and Raiders remains the stand-alone epic of the series; tonally and stylisitcally contrasting with the following three. But of course, the series is a Quadrilogy and that's how it's gonna be!
:hat:

'Crusade' is amazing, of course. It has gotten alot of hate the last few years from some idiots on the internet the last few years, but then again what Indy sequel hasn't? 'Crusade' is far from perfect and while I'll never quite understand how anyone could put it above 'Raiders', I respect their opinion.
:whip:
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Crusade is a fun film though the first time I saw it, it lacked in a lot of areas for me. I didn't like the named after the dog bit, Marcus being used as a joke, and the ending like Stoo said should have been a bit more serious than an ancient Knight cracking wise. It has grown on me over the years and due to that I enjoyed KOTCS because I expected winks and nods with some over the top humor. The movies in the series, in my opinion, get a little worse with every film they make. I still want more though :whip:
 

The Drifter

New member
I rank Crusade as my second favorite after Doom. I enjoyed Marcus in this movie and it made him into my favorite character in the Indyverse, even above Indiana Jones himself. The action scenes were top notch and the search for the Grail seemed like more of an adventure than the other films. The relationship between Indy and his dad was great to watch (maybe that's why there was such a change of character for Marcus. In Raiders he was Indy's father figure, but in Crusade that role shifted to Henry Sr.). And the tank chase is my favorite bit from all four movies.
 
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