The Intelligent Professor

Indiana Jones was conceived as an intelligent professor, who knows his science and can deduce a hoax. Half the time he's dealing with hoaxes, (whether on screen or not). Not only in terms of taboos but also in terms of antiquities.

Interpretative difficulties face all archaeologists. As interpretative theories are proposed, they are tested against the full knowledge base. If one or more parts of the puzzle do not seem to fit then an honest archaeologist will reject the theory.

There is no real alternative to this methodology. More than once two experts will arrive at conflicting conclusions from the same data, from the same archaeological site. Without an audible voice from the past to help us, archaeologists will propose and keep proposing non-testable theories, but it is all we have at this present time.

All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike — and yet it is the most precious thing we have. Albert Einstein
It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great openness to new ideas. If you are only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you. You never learn anything new. You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is ruling the world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish the useful ideas from the worthless ones. If all ideas have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all. Carl Sagan
<object width="446" height="326"><param name="movie" value="http://video.ted.com/assets/player/swf/EmbedPlayer.swf"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"/><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><param name="bgColor" value="#ffffff"></param> <param name="flashvars" value="vu=http://video.ted.com/talks/dynamic/MichaelShermer_2010-medium.flv&su=http://images.ted.com/images/ted/tedindex/embed-posters/MichaelShermer-2010.embed_thumbnail.jpg&vw=432&vh=240&ap=0&ti=884&introDuration=15330&adDuration=4000&postAdDuration=830&adKeys=talk=michael_shermer_the_pattern_behind_self_deception;year=2010;theme=evolution_s_genius;theme=how_we_learn;theme=how_the_mind_works;theme=new_on_ted_com;event=TED2010;&preAdTag=tconf.ted/embed;tile=1;sz=512x288;" /><embed src="http://video.ted.com/assets/player/swf/EmbedPlayer.swf" pluginspace="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" bgColor="#ffffff" width="446" height="326" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" flashvars="vu=http://video.ted.com/talks/dynamic/MichaelShermer_2010-medium.flv&su=http://images.ted.com/images/ted/tedindex/embed-posters/MichaelShermer-2010.embed_thumbnail.jpg&vw=432&vh=240&ap=0&ti=884&introDuration=15330&adDuration=4000&postAdDuration=830&adKeys=talk=michael_shermer_the_pattern_behind_self_deception;year=2010;theme=evolution_s_genius;theme=how_we_learn;theme=how_the_mind_works;theme=new_on_ted_com;event=TED2010;"></embed></object>

We've put a lot of mileage on ancient aliens and soon the minds who have inspired our science. As Michael Shermer laments, superstition will always be with us. What are some of the outlandish hoaxes or interpretations you've encountered in your own travels? Hopefully the focus of the thread will be perception and its confirmation or its refutation.
 
Last edited:

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
As Michael Shermer laments, superstition will always be with us. What are some of the outlandish hoaxes or interpretations you've encountered in your own travels? Hopefully the focus of the thread will be perception and its confirmation or its refutation.

The big one that's so ridiculous it's actually great! That the Germans reached the Moon during WWII and built a base there. As the war was ending they sent a mission to Mars with Japanese assistance.

All this erupts out of the hoaxes of German UFOs, spouted by so-called experts who were there. And then the myth expands to encompass Shangrila, Thule, the Illuminati, the Antarctic base, the hollow earth, aliens at Area 51, mind control, Tesla's supposed transportation of matter (the Philadelphia experiment), and so on.

The internet has become a breeding ground for all this myth-history, each site quoting from another, so that there is nothing substantial. The world appears to be conspiracy mad, joining up random dots and creating new interpretations.

A good dose of skepticism is required. The 'truth might be out there', but we have to check who it is who's offering it to us, and whether they would have any reason to hoax us.
 
Montana Smith said:
The big one that's so ridiculous it's actually great! That the Germans reached the Moon during WWII and built a base there. As the war was ending they sent a mission to Mars with Japanese assistance.
Despite lacking positive evidence, was any attempt made to disprove?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Despite lacking positive evidence, was any attempt made to disprove?

I suppose it's one of those claims that so utterly ridiculous, that the sound of mind treat is as they would treat a science fiction story.

Germany was supposed to have undertaken a nuclear test on the island of Ruegen during the war. But you go to any 'serious' web site, and they'll likely only mention Ruegen as a holiday resort. These hoaxes lack evidence. They spring up out of nowhere.

Another one is Doenitz' supposed claim that his U-Boat fleet had created a stronghold for Hitler in the far south Atlantic. I believe that all the sources lead back to a South American newspaper report.

Hoax-mongers have created a veritable religion, suckering in followers.
 
Montana Smith said:
Germany was supposed to have undertaken a nuclear test on the island of Ruegen during the war. But you go to any 'serious' web site, and they'll likely only mention Ruegen as a holiday resort.
I can imagine this would not help the tourist trade...and a Geiger Counter, (not to be confused with a HR Giger Counter) would be an easy test to pass or fail...
 

Matt deMille

New member
Interesting thread. And many good points.

However, I would like to offer some counterpoints. I know this is treading on sensitive ground, given my past with RA, so please take this constructively, and perhaps we can continue cordially;

The internet is indeed a breeding ground for crap. No arguments there. However, like any human endeavor, it can be used both for good and for bad purposes. That there are "serious websites" is in and of itself a confession to the usefulness of the internet as an information-exchange. It's just a question of how it is used and with what agenda.

The internet has, despite all the garbage, also provided a means for exposing truths. And since this is a thread about, among other things, the paranormal, then it's fair to say that the internet has provided a medium for such things as UFO videos to be "published" and distributed before any agency could suppress it. Certainly it gives hoaxers an easier time fooling the public and giving such research a bad name.

As for an outlandish hoax I've encountered, indeed, I can offer one. This may sound out of character for me, but I've met no end of people claiming ufological BS, especially people claiming abduction. I've run into them countless times. Though I believe the phenomena itself to be real, it has also, unfortunately, given rise to a large field of hoaxters. Again, as with all human endeavor, it has its light and dark sides.

While it can be painful to see people who have real trauma due to an experience, it *is* also very amusing and sometimes sickening to see people claiming alien abduction when just the week before they were claiming to have seen the Virgin Mary or you know next week they'll be claiming to be heir to the throne of England. Those seeking attention, wish-fulfillment or those who are truly mental certainly have a high population. And they disgust me.
 
I'm glad you embrace the thread, though redefining the conversation so early doesn't interest me in particular.

What does interest me is :

Matt deMille said:
...I've met no end of people claiming ufological BS, especially people claiming abduction. I've run into them countless times.

What in your experience is BS and what invalidates it?
 

Matt deMille

New member
What defines BS for me, at last in regards to false claims of alien contact, are a lot of subtleties. Now, before going further, I would like to say that, in making this point, I have to venture into my own experiences. Consider this an olive branch, RA. Let's stop fighting -- let's not take this as talk about me -- I'm with ya on this one (this thread), so let's be constructive here. There's a big part of me that is indeed skeptical, and hates the bad name so many pretenders give these issues. Since we seem to have a "common enemy" (for lack of a better term), maybe we can find peace and co-operation in this. Just give me a little length to speak:

About my experiences: What I'd been through was traumatic. Devastating. Without going into all that, suffice it to say that to judge the BS-level of others is about judging their reaction to things, their sincerity, their inability to let it go.

If someone claims "I was abducted by aliens", and doesn't seem too troubled about it, I'd say he'll full of sh*t. It's really no different than people who claim to have wanted to commit suicide, or claim to have been raped. Are they just seeking attention? Or is there real trauma there? The trauma is the way to gauge the individual's own belief in what happened.

I've seen all three in action: Claims of abduction, rape and attempted suicide. Only in a few did I see the real fear of those memories in their eyes. Most of the time, it seemed and sounded like a gimmick, and so that's probably what it was.

When someone claims something, anything, put their conviction to the test: If someone reports an alien abduction, see if they're willing to talk about it in public. Not for the attention, but for the risk of losing their job. See if their "cosmic brothers who told them to build a big crystal tower" -- surely a more important endeavor than working at McDonald's -- is a conviction they're willing to risk that burger-job for. Right then and there, most people are stopped cold in their tracks, because it's a game they don't want to take that far.

More subtle, of course, is what you can read in someone's face, and in their voice, their mannerisms. Is the traumatic experience they are claiming really traumatic to them? If they talk about how "cool" the aliens are, again, they're probably full of it. But if they are reluctant, or trembling, or reacting in some way that implies at the least discomfort, then it's possible.
 
Matt deMille said:
When someone claims something, anything, put their conviction to the test: If someone reports an alien abduction, see if they're willing to talk about it in public.

More subtle, of course, is what you can read in someone's face, and in their voice, their mannerisms. Is the traumatic experience they are claiming really traumatic to them? If they talk about how "cool" the aliens are, again, they're probably full of it. But if they are reluctant, or trembling, or reacting in some way that implies at the least discomfort, then it's possible.

So nothing tangible, feelings suffice for you? The whole idea of paternicity in the video touches upon recognition and patern detection problems which, for me doesn't necessarily invalidate...

Anything greater than intuition?
 
Last edited:

Matt deMille

New member
Certainly. Physical proof.

When people claim abduction, it's a claim only. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. It's their life.

But, when someone has an implant (they do exist), or witnesses see them disappear (this too has happened), or their fetus disappears overnight, or they're cured from cancer overnight, or any number of physical elements back their story, then it's credible.

But when they say, for example, "they gave me an implant" because they got the idea from X-Files, I say "Okay, fine, let's do an X-Ray, let's do an MRI, let's see if it's there". If they refuse, or they do the test and find nothing, then I'd say that invalidates their story.
 

Matt deMille

New member
Please rephrase the question. Unless you mean to ask about alien implant cases. If so, in short, there are a number of cases where someone has claimed an abduction, then had a scan done, a foreign object was found where the "dream" said it would be, and then later surgically removed, only to find it was not shrapnel, a nail, or any other mundane intrusion. Usually the implants are mostly composed of metals and materials that have no earthly business of being there.
 
Matt deMille said:
Please rephrase the question. Unless you mean to ask about alien implant cases. If so, in short, there are a number of cases where someone has claimed an abduction, then had a scan done, a foreign object was found where the "dream" said it would be, and then later surgically removed, only to find it was not shrapnel, a nail, or any other mundane intrusion. Usually the implants are mostly composed of metals and materials that have no earthly business of being there.

Well, as initiated:
What are some of the outlandish hoaxes or interpretations you've encountered in your own travels? Hopefully the focus of the thread will be perception and its confirmation or its refutation.

So you contend there are no earthly explanations for these cases? Where can I reference them?
 

Matt deMille

New member
Check out the books of Derrel Sims. And the late John Mack. Also, Whitley Strieber's work is important here. They all have done extensive research on abductions. Sims, I believe, has the most documentation of removed implants.

As for being unearthly, that means there's no conventional reason or possibility as we consider for them to be there. Given their physical makeup (for example, one removed implant I believe is 92% silicon), they can only be artificial, which begs the question of how they got there. As I said, they aren't normal debris we can identify, and when the carrier only learns about them from remembering an alien encounter, the two circumstances in conjunction make it a true phenomena.
 
Matt deMille said:
...the books of Derrel Sims. And the late John Mack. Also, Whitley Strieber's work...
Maybe you can provide the factual points. I can find nothing but conjecture and heresay.
Matt deMille said:
As I said, they aren't normal debris we can identify, and when the carrier only learns about them from remembering an alien encounter, the two circumstances in conjunction make it a true phenomena.
True phenomena is certainly an interesting expression...though who has tried to identify these items?
 
Matt deMille said:
What defines BS for me, at last in regards to false claims of alien contact, are a lot of subtleties. Now, before going further, I would like to say that, in making this point, I have to venture into my own experiences. Consider this an olive branch, RA.


You're doing it again.


Rocket, he really thinks we're the same person... :confused:
 
ResidentAlien said:
You're doing it again.Rocket, he really thinks we're the same person... :confused:
There's another possibility, but let him provide it...

Regarding your reference books:

The ultimate end to thinking is to understand cause-and-effect relationships in the world around us. The goal is to know the universe, the world, and ourselves. Since rationality is the most reliable means of thinking, a rational skeptic may be defined as:

One who questions the validity of particular claims of knowledge by employing or calling for statements of fact to prove or disprove claims, as a tool for understanding causality.

In other words, skeptics are from Missouri ? the ?show me? state. When we hear a fantastic claim we say, ?that?s nice, prove it.?
I don't believe you Matt. I don't believe Derrel Sims, John Mack or Whitley Strieber's "work"...prove it.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator Note

Keep it civil, people. You may find some people's ideas a bit unorthodox to your liking, but that doesn't mean you'll have to delve into a tug-of-war every time you come across them. The upkeep really doesn't care who has the arguments with more common sense, if you constantly provoke and get provoked you're about as dense as the other side in our eyes.

Some of you have already taken a forced leave due to this particular thickheadedness. We always have more of the same coming if you appear to take a particular liking into it.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I don't believe you Matt. I don't believe Derrel Sims, John Mack or Whitley Strieber's "work"...prove it.

It's a war that can't be won, Rocket.

You know that some convictions are a strong as faith, based on personal circumstances and experiences.

You're unlikely to extract either a confession or a conversion.

Continuing the words of Cronenberg from that other thread, we fill the void with meaning. For some it may be easily filled by gods, or even by aliens. For others it's a matter of edging around the fringe, looking in, and creating meaning as you go. That's the mobile campaign of skepticism. First doubt, then gradually accept. Acceptance comes with evidence. But for those of faith or conviction, proof may be less tangible.

:hat:
 
Rocket Surgeon said:
What are some of the outlandish hoaxes or interpretations you've encountered in your own travels? Hopefully the focus of the thread will be perception and its confirmation or its refutation.
Montana Smith said:
It's a war that can't be won, Rocket.

Once again the purpose of the thread is to get away from what can't be proven.

What in your experience is BS and what PROOF invalidates it?

Intuition is not proof.
 
Top