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Old 03-18-2013, 12:59 PM   #26
Temple Raider
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Both moments are definitely cringe-inducing for sure, forgot about both. And as excellent as Connery was, he had more than a few bad moments in the film that weren't right for his character.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple Raider
And as excellent as Connery was, he had more than a few bad moments in the film that weren't right for his character.
I don't understand what you mean by this, Temple Raider. How can there be out-of-character moments when the 1 hour of screen-time that Henry Sr. has is exactly what establishes his persona in the first place?

---
In '89, one of the reasons "Crusade" disappointed me is because Indy didn't sport his standard look for most of the film.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:17 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Stoo
I don't understand what you mean by this, Temple Raider. How can there be out-of-character moments when the 1 hour of screen-time that Henry Sr. has is exactly what establishes his persona in the first place?

---
In '89, one of the reasons "Crusade" disappointed me is because Indy didn't sport his standard look for most of the film.

That bugged me too. Also, I thought the jokes were excessive and didn't like Marcus as a fool. And named after the dog bothers me still.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
I don't understand what you mean by this, Temple Raider. How can there be out-of-character moments when the 1 hour of screen-time that Henry Sr. has is exactly what establishes his persona in the first place?


I meant his moments when he comes off as like a buffoon, like the umbrella bit. We're to believe he's a wise man and yet he comes off with silly moments like that.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:33 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple Raider
I meant his moments when he comes off as like a buffoon, like the umbrella bit. We're to believe he's a wise man and yet he comes off with silly moments like that.

So, causing the birds to fly into the plane makes him look like a buffoon? How does that work? He saves himself and Indy in the scene when they seem oht of options. How is saving themselves unwise?
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:00 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple Raider
I meant his moments when he comes off as like a buffoon, like the umbrella bit. We're to believe he's a wise man and yet he comes off with silly moments like that.

Er.. he downed a German fighter by scaring birds into it - the 'silly' lasted as long as the first bird hitting the propeller. I can't see how this bit would be 'unwise'.. Were you really just expecting Connery to do his "James Bond" bit here?
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:23 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vance
Er.. he downed a German fighter by scaring birds into it - the 'silly' lasted as long as the first bird hitting the propeller. I can't see how this bit would be 'unwise'.. Were you really just expecting Connery to do his "James Bond" bit here?

Either
A) Thanks for repeating my post

Or......

B) You are childishly ignoring/blocking my post

Either way.............


p.s. Temple Raider, don't disagree with Vance. He does not like that.

Last edited by Henry W Jones : 03-20-2013 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:33 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Henry W Jones
Either
A) Thanks for repeating my post

Or......

B) You are childishly ignoring/blocking my post

Either way.............


p.s. Temple Raider, don't disagree with Vance. He does not like that.

I think Vance was just putting his opinion of the matter out there as well. Nothing wrong with that. And, I agree with him and you both. Senior saved the day there. Indy was outta ideas. Luckily Senior remembered his Charlemagne.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:27 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Drifter
I think Vance was just putting his opinion of the matter out there as well. Nothing wrong with that. And, I agree with him and you both. Senior saved the day there. Indy was outta ideas. Luckily Senior remembered his Charlemagne.

I'm fine with that. Its just Vances attitude towards me has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Sincerely Vance, in this instance, I apologize and will try to let past instances interfere in future conversations.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:57 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple Raider
I meant his moments when he comes off as like a buffoon, like the umbrella bit. We're to believe he's a wise man and yet he comes off with silly moments like that.
Being a buffoon IS part of Henry Sr.'s personality. These "bad/silly moments" are "right for the character" because that's the way he is. Unlike Marcus' case in "Crusade", he was never shown being serious in a previous film so, in 1989, there was nothing to compare with (unless, of course, your first introduction to Henry Sr. was via the later TV series, where he is younger and displays no buffoonery).

From his very first scene, Henry Sr. is portrayed as a goofball when he is more concerned about the broken vase than with his own son's head! Then he throws the vase to the ground, making even more noise, which is followed by this:

Henry Sr.: "But I thought you were one of them."
Indy: "Dad, they come in through the doors."
Henry Sr.: "Good point."
Indy: "D'uh!"

Later on, he ineptly drops the lighter and stupidly makes the fire worse by blowing on the flames from a distance. Is that a wise thing to do when you're trying put them out? Plus, Indy tells his dad to fire the machine gun at 11 o'clock and the old coot doesn't understand the meaning. Not to mention the daffy professor shoots their own plane and won't admit it.

Henry Sr. may be intelligent but he is an accident-prone buffoon. (That said, his character is not what makes "Crusade" my least favourite of the original 3.)
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:32 PM   #36
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I just feel it was silly. I expected the man who's the father to such a skilled, intelligent and resourceful man like Indy to not come off that way.

I forgot about the whole dog bit, too. Even as a kid, I always thought that was odd that Indy's name came from the dog.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple Raider
I just feel it was silly. I expected the man who's the father to such a skilled, intelligent and resourceful man like Indy to not come off that way.
Understood, Temple Raider, but your objection that Henry Sr.'s actions "weren't right for his character" is based on your own pre-conceived notions. (Back in the '80s, I never even thought of what Indy's parents would be like, so seeing his father in "Crusade" came as quite a surprise and I took him for what he was). The contrast between father & son is the MAJOR, driving force of "Crusade" and one of the only elements that establishes it from NOT being a rehash of "Raiders"!

Temple Raider, when did you see "Crusade" and how old were you at the time? Which Indiana Jones film was your first and at what age?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple Raider
I forgot about the whole dog bit, too. Even as a kid, I always thought that was odd that Indy's name came from the dog.
If you "forgot about the whole dog bit" then I don't really know what else to say to you, Temple Raider. (The "dog" reference is a commonly known THING amongst Indy fans). Even so, what is ODD about Indy being named after the family dog? Is this minor detail really a factor that makes "Crusade" your least favourite?
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:40 PM   #38
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I first saw TLC when I was about 8 or 9, caught it on the USA Network. I saw TOD first when I was probably just a year or two old and ROTLA not long after that. I'd spent my childhood with ROTLA and TOD, and didn't even know TLC existed until I caught it on USA. Imagine my surprise when I found out about another IJ film existing.

I understand what you mean that being that TLC was Henry, Sr.'s first appearance in the series that we had no idea of what he was like. What I should've been more specific about was I just didn't feel the more silly moments his character had didn't fit because I would've expected the man who's Indy's father to come off as far more noble and intelligent, and in many ways an older version of Indy himself whom was a mirror image in some ways.

About the dog moment, it's not that I forgot about it in the film, I just forgot to mention it before in the discussion. It doesn't really bother me per say but it does strike me as a little odd that Indy's namesake comes from the family dog of all things, but it's actually not a negative for me, mind you. Just something I find bizarre.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:00 AM   #39
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Sean Connery fitted Henry Jones Sr. like an ill-fitting suit.
Maybe 20, 30 years earlier he could have done it, but in 1989? No.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:47 AM   #40
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I think he fitted the role very well and did great as Henry, Sr. He just had a few buffoonish moments I think should've been omitted.
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:00 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKORadio
Sean Connery fitted Henry Jones Sr. like an ill-fitting suit.
Maybe 20, 30 years earlier he could have done it, but in 1989? No.

20-30 years earlier? Playing Indy's father? So, you are saying they should have hired a 30-40 year old actor to play a 39 year old Indy's father? How would that have worked? If they hired any younger, Indy would be older than his father. Who would have been better? A young Leonardo DiCaprio? A fetus maybe? Would that be young enough?
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:22 PM   #42
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I'm just saying that Connery was past his peak acting-wise. A Connery with the skils of the 1962 Connery would have been better.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:55 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKORadio
I'm just saying that Connery was past his peak acting-wise. A Connery with the skils of the 1962 Connery would have been better.

Acting ability decays with age, rather than growing with the understanding that one acquires over the years?

Look: if you mean physically demanding acting, then that is certainly possible. But he's not meant to be a young man in the film. He's a father of a man well on his own way into middle age.
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Acting ability decays with age, rather than growing with the understanding that one acquires over the years?

Look: if you mean physically demanding acting, then that is certainly possible. But he's not meant to be a young man in the film. He's a father of a man well on his own way into middle age.


Exactly!!!! If they were going for James Bond then she is right but playing the father of a 39 year old man is a different story. He is by nature a book worm and not a field guy so he would be out of his element. The fact he is Indy's father puts him at roughly 60-70 years old. I am 37 and my father is 62


RKO: How was he not well fitted for the role since Indy is the action star of the films?
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:45 PM   #45
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The way Connery looked in TLC he could've easily passed for being a couple of decades older than he really was.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:41 AM   #46
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"That car belonged to my Brother in Law"

"Sallah I said NO CAMELS, THAT's FIVE CAMELS!"




LC rocked!
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Old 04-01-2013, 03:25 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple Raider
The way Connery looked in TLC he could've easily passed for being a couple of decades older than he really was.

You think he could have passed for 79? That may be pushing it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:03 PM   #48
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I think he could've at least passed for up to mayb 72 years old, tops. It's not that implausible to think he could've fathered Indy when he was in his early-to-mid 20s or very early 30s, as Indy is 40ish during TLC. I could buy Connery in the film as being at least 25-30 years older than Harrison.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:03 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by RKORadio
I'm just saying that Connery was past his peak acting-wise. A Connery with the skils of the 1962 Connery would have been better.
Sorry, my dear RKORadio, but this is a ridiculous claim. Some of Sean's most notable performances of his entire career were between 1986-1990. The same year that he was filming "Crusade", he received his 1st & ONLY Oscar award for "The Untouchables" in 1987. Winning an Oscar in 1988 was a crowning acheivement and a good example of his 2nd peak (which he is personally proud of).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple Raider
I first saw TLC when I was about 8 or 9, caught it on the USA Network. I saw TOD first when I was probably just a year or two old and ROTLA not long
after that. I'd spent my childhood with ROTLA and TOD, and didn't even know TLC existed until I caught it on USA. Imagine my surprise when I found out about another IJ film
existing.

---snip---

About the dog moment, it's not that I forgot about it in the film, I just forgot to mention it before in the discussion. It doesn't really bother me per say but it does strike me as a little odd that Indy's namesake comes from the family dog of all things, but it's actually not a negative for me, mind you. Just something I find bizarre.
This is why I want to know WHEN you first saw "Crusade" (as in, what year). You talked about your age but never mentioned what year...and this detail is rather important in order to fully understand your frame of mind at the time. (Personally, I think it's vital to know how old Raven members are...)

In 2013, if you still find Indy's namesake to be bizarre, then perhaps you're unaware that the character was named after Lucas' own dog*? Indiana, the dog, was mentioned as early as 1977 in "The Making of Star Wars" TV special and the reference was repeated over & over since that time. By 1989, it was a known fact amongst Lucas fans that Indiana Jones was named after his dog and the line in "Crusade" was an inside, tip-of-the-hat. (If you didn't know about this until now, then I can understand why you find it bizarre.)

*Here at The Raven, the REAL ownership of the dog was uncovered by Rocket Surgeon. It belonged to George's wife-at-the-time. It was actually Marcia's dog!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyLGR
I think overall TLC takes the comedy angle a bit further than Raiders ever did.
Too right, Andy. "Last Crusade" could be categorized/classified as a comedy because it's over-loaded with jokes.
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:08 PM   #50
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I may have seen that special but don't remember for sure if I ever did or not. If I did I definitely have long forgotten that detail.

It was definitely a nice surprise when I saw TLC for the first time, finding out another Indy movie existed. I'm not sure why we never owned TLC on VHS before, I remember we had ROTLA and TOD, and both always had constant rotation.
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