The Great Jock Escape...
- Thread starter OmegaSeamaster
- Start date
Uki
Member
Perhaps Belloq paid the Hovitos for the idol...? Their tribe could have been in need of supplies, food, water...something, and they had agreed that that old idol of theirs wan't really doing anything, and this French chap seems to be interested in it. Of course, no one was willing to go in after it so maybe Belloq tipped Indy off as to its location in order to get it out, and then take it from him. Good thread, by the way!
I'd love to have seen Indy obtain Nurhachi! I'd always hoped if they made a 4th film, that it would have had an Asian/mythological storyline.No Ticket said:
As for the Jock debate, I'm not entirely sure? In the book Indy hires Barranca, Satipo, and the other Indian guides, but no mention of how long they'd been in the jungle is given. And as mentioned in an earlier post, Barranca had the other half of the map, and was planning to kill Jones once they got to the temple. As for Jock, he's waiting by the plane for Indy, just like in the movie. So really, nothing is that dramatically different from the novel's opening to the film's.
Cagefighterkip
New member
jock won't be in it. i could be wrong, but i doubt it. i just dont see it happening at all...
NamedAfterDaDog
New member
Finn said:
Yeah, I think, until I hear something I like more, I'm going with that.
emtiem
Well-known member
OmegaSeamaster said:I know in the original script by Kasdan, it's implied that Barranca and Satipo have one half of the map, with Jones having the other. This kind of implies that they're partners of some sort.
In the actual movie, you see this when one of them hands Jones their half of the map, and you see Jones bringing them together to locate the temple entrance. Having both parts of the map together at last is what prompts Barranca to try and kill him.
Barranca and Satipo might be local guides, but the script implies something more. I doubt the two guys would just see Jones walk off with an immensely valuable treasure while they got their $500 US dollars and were left to trudge back to the city through the heart of Hovitos country! Haha.
Jones: "Nice working with you. The Jungle is three days in every direction...so please...start walking. Me? I'm off to meet Jock, my first-class air ticket outta here. He's waiting for me at a nearby river."
That's quite interesting: makes it seem like Jones was planning to doublecross them (because he'd heard they were likely to try one over on him) and they didn't know Jock was even there! Sort of makes sense like that, actually.
lao che & sons
New member
Ya know I always had wondered this too. I thought 3 things could happen
1. Indiana Jones could cut the idol into 3rds
2. play 3 way rock paper sicors
3. Indy did only hire them to do a job he probably never made any deals on who gets the idol. I can just see it now... statipo lives and they get out alive and satipo never betrays indy... So what do we do now senior? Well uh here's a hondred bucks and a ticket to america and you know I've got a ride so I guess I'll se ya then... *satipo stands there with his mouth open*
1. Indiana Jones could cut the idol into 3rds
2. play 3 way rock paper sicors
3. Indy did only hire them to do a job he probably never made any deals on who gets the idol. I can just see it now... statipo lives and they get out alive and satipo never betrays indy... So what do we do now senior? Well uh here's a hondred bucks and a ticket to america and you know I've got a ride so I guess I'll se ya then... *satipo stands there with his mouth open*
Montana Smith
Active member
So, if we assume the following:
Jock flies Indy to a point on the river as close as possible to the known location of the temple.
We know Indy has half the map.
Barranca and Satipo have the other half of the map and also know the location of the temple, but they have to trek through the jungle to meet Indy, as they don't have the luxury of air transport.
When brought together the map gives the location of the entrance to the temple (assuming that it is is a point that will never be overgrown by jungle).
I always thought that the map must indicate the 'safe' entrance. Someone with Indy's personality would have been more likely to want to claim the prize on his own, without the help of people he couldn't trust (In Cairo Sallah was an old friend - but Barranca and Satipo were either strangers or acquaintances). He could have discovered an entrance without the map, but would it have been a 'safe' entrance? (After all, Forrestal found a way in without the map).
So, Indy accepts assistance, and Brody's museum is probably paying Satipo and Barranca. Indy, nevertheless, would expect to be double crossed. The Idol is obviously worth more than the museum would pay for its recovery.
As soon as Indy reveals his half of the map he knows that he is in danger - and he's immediately ready to face it.
The confusion I always had about the long trek followed by a quick dash to the aircraft, was that the both the film and the book imply that Indy has trekked with them through the jungle - it doesn't say so, but the reader and viewer has no other reference point (we haven't seen the aircraft yet).
This, then, makes for one of those cliffhanger escapes. If this was an old Saturday morning cinema serial, it would have ended as Indy raced off into the jungle chased by the Hovitos. For a whole week kids would be wondering how their hero would escape from the middle of the jungle, pursued by natives who were on home turf.
Next week all would be revealed: saved by a waiting aircraft.
Now I can sleep easy at night, because I think this is the likely solution to my confusion. And it's all down to the folks here at The Raven.
Matt
Jock flies Indy to a point on the river as close as possible to the known location of the temple.
We know Indy has half the map.
Barranca and Satipo have the other half of the map and also know the location of the temple, but they have to trek through the jungle to meet Indy, as they don't have the luxury of air transport.
When brought together the map gives the location of the entrance to the temple (assuming that it is is a point that will never be overgrown by jungle).
I always thought that the map must indicate the 'safe' entrance. Someone with Indy's personality would have been more likely to want to claim the prize on his own, without the help of people he couldn't trust (In Cairo Sallah was an old friend - but Barranca and Satipo were either strangers or acquaintances). He could have discovered an entrance without the map, but would it have been a 'safe' entrance? (After all, Forrestal found a way in without the map).
So, Indy accepts assistance, and Brody's museum is probably paying Satipo and Barranca. Indy, nevertheless, would expect to be double crossed. The Idol is obviously worth more than the museum would pay for its recovery.
As soon as Indy reveals his half of the map he knows that he is in danger - and he's immediately ready to face it.
The confusion I always had about the long trek followed by a quick dash to the aircraft, was that the both the film and the book imply that Indy has trekked with them through the jungle - it doesn't say so, but the reader and viewer has no other reference point (we haven't seen the aircraft yet).
This, then, makes for one of those cliffhanger escapes. If this was an old Saturday morning cinema serial, it would have ended as Indy raced off into the jungle chased by the Hovitos. For a whole week kids would be wondering how their hero would escape from the middle of the jungle, pursued by natives who were on home turf.
Next week all would be revealed: saved by a waiting aircraft.
Now I can sleep easy at night, because I think this is the likely solution to my confusion. And it's all down to the folks here at The Raven.
Matt
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emtiem
Well-known member
I like Finn's explanation above, although that missed the half a map thing. I like the idea that he treks out with Satipo and Berocca or whatever his name is and, unaware to his companions, tells Jock to meet him there because he expects the two guys to double cross him and he knows he'll have to make a quick getaway.
Obviously that doesn't explain how Indy knows where the plane is, but perhaps Jock has left some sort of little markers on the path Indy takes so he knows where to meet him. Or alternatively, perhaps an experienced field man like Indy knows his geography and which way a river is. Or perhaps he just looked up the meeting point on the map he had
As I remember though, he runs back the way we saw him come during the titles: I took the implication that they were coming from the plane, but obviously that makes no sense! Perhaps the other guys hung onto the wings!
Obviously that doesn't explain how Indy knows where the plane is, but perhaps Jock has left some sort of little markers on the path Indy takes so he knows where to meet him. Or alternatively, perhaps an experienced field man like Indy knows his geography and which way a river is. Or perhaps he just looked up the meeting point on the map he had
As I remember though, he runs back the way we saw him come during the titles: I took the implication that they were coming from the plane, but obviously that makes no sense! Perhaps the other guys hung onto the wings!
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Stoo
Well-known member
It's possible that the map could have been Forrestal's but he gave it to one of his porters/partners before entering the tunnel. After he never came back out there was a fight over the map which tore it into 2 pieces and each went their own way.Montana Smith said:
I also think that Indy did not fly in with Jock. If he did, he wouldn't have been surprised by Reggie the Snake.
Montana Smith
Active member
Stoo said:
I forgot about Reggie!
I think Jock 'befriended' the snake whilst he was waiting for Indy to return. It could have come up out of the river and got onto the aircraft. It posed no danger so Jock let it stay and called it Reggie! Since Jock was forced to leave in a hurry there was no way to evict the snake in time. Jock is an old friend, and would almost certainly know Indy's phobia of snakes. I don't think he would have intentionally inflicted that terror on his friend.
As emtiem says, Indy appears to run back the way he came during the titles, suggesting he flew in. I don't think there would have been a need for Indy to trek with Satipo and Barranca: Indy didn't need a guide to find the temple, Satipo and Barranca did. There were 8 people: Indy, the two Peruvians and 5 Quechua Indians. That means a long journey with a lot of equipment, and guides. Indy didn't need to do that journey. The others must have know that the intention was for Indy to take the Idol, and they would take the cash payment.
I see Reggie as a device to establish Indy's fear of snakes early on, in preparation for the Well of Souls.
Matt
Montana Smith
Active member
Stoo said:Hi, MTM.Of course, there's also the possibility that Jock found the snake on the spot while foraging for something to make his fishing pole with, adopted it and gave him a name after Indy left the plane. Upon returning, he meets Jock's new "pet".
Stoo - whilst I was thinking and typing you covered the same idea!
Stoo
Well-known member
Quite right and I've always been in this school of thought. It was only this morning that I'd considered Reggie being a clue as to Indy not flying in which is obviously, incorrect so I take that statement back. He befriended Reggie while Indy was jungle-whacking.Montana Smith said:
Like Belloq said, "You and I are very much alike."Montana Smith said:
The first 13 mins. of "Raiders" are my favourite in ALL of Indylore and can talk about it 'til the cows come home.One thing I don't recall ever seeing is a GOOD picture of the actual prop/s used for the map. There are fan-made maps and a sketch version in the "Lost Journal" but is there a decent photo of the painted one from the movie out there somewhere?
Bringing the expanded universe information into play...Ultimate Guide:
"Former stunt pilot and loyal Yankees fan, Jock Lindsey, had been figuring on a couple of days of fishing while Indy explored. Instead, Jock, Indy and Jock's pet snake, Reggie, are forced to execute an emergency take-off out of the jungle."
"A fragment of the parchment map is known to be in the calloused hands of two cutthroat Peruvian guides, Satipo and Barranca, whose chief haunt is a rum-soaked Amazonian river landing called Machete Junction. Indy is aware that the pair has used their map to lure guileless explorers to their deaths, but he makes a deal with them anyway, as their portion of the map is essential to locating the hidden temple."
In the cross-section painting of the temple you can see Machete Junction way off is the foggy distance.
Lost Journal:
While en route to South America, Indy writes, "Need to contact Jock Lindsay once I get there. I have some good leads on some porters to hire."
"From Bandelier's collection in New Mexico". Map shown in 3 pieces. 1 half and 2 quarters. The 2/4s both have the same folding creases which suggest they have been together for awhile. The left half shows the area, the top right quarter shows the entrance while the bottom right shows the floorplan and there's a note to pointing to that piece that stating: "Found w/family of porters who 'helped' me. With help like that, who needs enemies?"
Another interesting note directly on the map (presumably written by Indy):
"Sketch map drawn by A. Bandelier, 1893 of Chachapoyan region first explored by Juan Crisostomo Nieto in 1843."
There's even more background on the area, Forrestal, idol, etc. in both books but they seem for suited for the Forrestal thread.
Montana Smith
Active member
Stoo said:Quite right and I've always been in this school of thought. It was only this morning that I'd considered Reggie being a clue as to Indy not flying in which is obviously, incorrect so I take that statement back. He befriended Reggie while Indy was jungle-whacking.
Like Belloq said, "You and I are very much alike."
Stoo said:
That implies our theory is faulty: that Reggie was a pet snake; that Indy was going to trek with porters for a few days.
I haven't read either of those books. Do you take them to be part of authorized 'Indylore', or as less researched 'cash-in' books? I know some of the roleplaying books make unsubtantiated statements.
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Stoo
Well-known member
If Jock didn't find the snake there, then perhaps Reggie was busy slinking around inside the plane's fuselage during the flight to the river (as he often liked to do). During Indy's absence, he found his way into the forward cockpit and settled under the cool shade of the footbay while his pal went fishing...Montana Smith said:
Yes and no. They are definitely not 'cash-in' books because they are Lucasfilm sanctioned and lovingly done, crammed full of interesting tidbits, details, drawings, letters, etc. Highly recommended! The problem is that they are also sprinkled with errors, inconsistencies and there is much conflicting information between the two. (Same goes for the "Greatest Adventures of IJ" book). Apart from that, the NEW information they provide, ex. Forrestal backstory, is all we have to go on. They're well done but some of the ideas have not been as fully scrutinized as we're able to do here. Always fun to throw into the mix, though!Montana Smith said:
I'm very curious about Machete Junction. As far as I know, that info is unique to "Ultimate Guide".
Dr Bones
New member
This bugged me for a while....
http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=17439&page=2
But then I figured, Indy must have flown in alone with Jock and met the other's there...then he was to fly out with Jock whilst the others went back the way they came.
Now that's fine....utnil it come to the snake which Indy didn't know about until he escapes on the plane....where was the snake before if Indy flew in with it? I don't think he'd pick up a wild snake and drop it in the plane...but it's one possibility.
Perhaps it was in with Jock but would he fly with a snake slithering around the controls? A tad risky.
So perhaps Indy came in another way (with Satipo et al as guides) but had Jock as an escape route once he had retrived the idol and needed to beat a hasty retreat.
Perhaps he knew he'd need an alternative escape plan....we know what a cautious fellow he is.
http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=17439&page=2
But then I figured, Indy must have flown in alone with Jock and met the other's there...then he was to fly out with Jock whilst the others went back the way they came.
Now that's fine....utnil it come to the snake which Indy didn't know about until he escapes on the plane....where was the snake before if Indy flew in with it? I don't think he'd pick up a wild snake and drop it in the plane...but it's one possibility.
Perhaps it was in with Jock but would he fly with a snake slithering around the controls? A tad risky.
So perhaps Indy came in another way (with Satipo et al as guides) but had Jock as an escape route once he had retrived the idol and needed to beat a hasty retreat.
Perhaps he knew he'd need an alternative escape plan....we know what a cautious fellow he is.
emtiem
Well-known member
Stoo said:If Jock didn't find the snake there, then perhaps Reggie was busy slinking around inside the plane's fuselage during the flight to the river (as he often liked to do). During Indy's absence, he found his way into the forward cockpit and settled under the cool shade of the footbay while his pal went fishing...
I still reckon that Indy treks in with Satipo and friends but has arranged for Jock to meet him in the jungle so he can make a quick getaway in case the porters turn nasty. He has arranged for Jock to meet him in a particular place and, as he's leading the expedition, he takes a route nice and close to where the plane is so he can case out his path back: he's planning to be making a quick getaway from Satipo et al, after all, so he needs to know the lie of the land.