Indiana was a Freemason: Or, what affiliations does he have on his resume?

Oh yeah, sorry:

Pale Horse, I am also on the "Crusade/Grail" thread so, please do write
something up there. I'm interested to read whatever you have to say.

And as Lao Che says, there is a handshake. Sometimes specific to the lodge.

no one knows how to keep a secret. eeesh. Next thing we are going to read about is filming schedules for IJ-IV.

Which avenue of Freemasonry should we talk about...?

Pale Horse said:

I have been updating my studies on the Free Masons, Rex Deus, The Knights Templars as well as other areas conspiratorial concepts. I was going to use it in my posts to the Crusade thread developing...

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My good man, the aspect in which you refer to above. It's a good thread.
Have at it.

Otherwise, your original query was about the possibility of Indy being a Mason.
Apart from having certain character qualities, I just don't see any hints...
and unless he said it in sarcasm, Indy's "Fortune and glory" line detracts
from the idea.

To support the thought, though, he *was* in the Boys Scouts of America
and all Scouts have a special (not secret), left-handed handshake!
Scouts' creator Baden Powell may/may not have been a Freemason but
his ideals were the same. Someone suggested fraternities during Indy's
Univ. of Chicago days, which isn't too far-fetched, but the few brief
glimpses in "Young Indy" haven't gone there yet. Imagine a new one?
"Young Indiana Jones and the Secrets of Hiram Abiff"...

really i don´t think of Indiana as a Mason, that hand shake may just be a coincidence, i dont´t think he did it in order to show his masonery rank or to identify himself as one, sorry i just can´t see him as one.

Luisiana Jones said:

really i don' think of Indiana as a Mason...
...sorry i just can't seem his as one.

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Maybe you weren't reading carefully enough since you're basically agreeing
with what I'm saying.

Luisiana Jones said:

that hand shake may just be a coincidence, i dont´t think he did it in order to show his masonery rank or to identify himself as one

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The "handshake" being discussed is not in the movies and is completely
hypothetical/imaginary. Which one are you talking about? No one has
claimed that Indy made a Masonic handshake in the films.

well i just saw the pic, and thought it was taken from one of the movies, sorry if i misread you then, or maybe i didnt get what you guys were trying to say

and yup i didnt read the posts carefully, just saw the pic and i read something about the indy movies and masonic hand shake and bang, there you got it, my opinion on Indy movies and masonery that it was similar to yours but thats just luck

Okay, I think we are getting away from the original premise of this thread, mostly because of some gross misunderstandings of Free Masonry. That?s okay, I have them too. I think many of you are trying to determine if Indy is the type of Free Mason that is represented in the Flintstones cartoon (with the funky gloves and the Grand Poobaugh) . We all know Indy isn?t one of those.

"You are strangely dressed, for a knight"
yeah, and your language is distinctly different than Middle French, but whose complaining?

The Original 9 Knights of the Knights Templars:

• Hugues de Payen
• Geoffrey de St Omar
• Andre? de Montbard
• Payen de Montdider
• Achambaud de St-Amand
• Gondemare
• Rosal
• Godefroy
• Geoffroy Bisol

were initially commissioned to excavate in Jerusalem near the place of the sacred temple (hint: Ark of the Covenant). Details of what they found are clouded at best. That is where the stories start to spider-web into myth and legend. What we do know is that for several Crusades afterward, these Knights, and their counterparts routinely traveled to Jerusalem and beyond to protect either their booty or their honor. History (written by the winners) determines their success and we can get into that in a different thread.

So that brings us to Indy, and those above him. You see the Original Knights were not knights at all. They were archeologists, they just didn?t know it. Now we have a modern day archeologist, whose tools are trowels, plumb bobs, brushes and Vernier gages (hmmmm, sounds similar to Mason tools, doesn?t it). On the flip side, Indy?s tools are a mean fist, a Webley .455 Mark VI and a David Morgan 10? whip?tools of a 1930?s Knight.

You see, I do think a case can be made that Musgrove and Eaton are part of a conspiratorial Illuminati, and that Donovan is also part of that Illuminati, only approaching it from the other side, (but in fact they are on the same side?never mind, that?s a different thread). Indy just happens to be the happenstance victim who is charged by the kings above him to claim the artifacts that the kings need for their crown. One day Indy believes that the artifacts will bring him the ?Fortune and Glory? any true knight deserves, but until then, he will go after these artifacts with the deep sense of conviction that the desired treasures ?belong in a museum.?

Pale Horse on 6-21-2004 said:

Which leads to the next question for us brain stretchers.

What do all of the artifacts that Indy has gone after all have in common?

on a freemason level, of course...

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Any ideas..I do

Once again, I'm not going to touch the artifact thing....

I wanted to address the issue of Marcus. Here's my research into why Marcus isn't a Mason. I'm surmising that he is indeed Catholic, which I believe strongly based not only on his Sign of the Cross at the end of Last Crusade, but also his conversation with Indy at Henry Sr.'s house. It is illegal according to ecclesiastical law for a Catholic to join any secret society. Masons aren't real fond of Catholics either, so even if Marcus were only a marginal Catholic, I don't think the Masons would have tolerated him.

Past Grand Deacon J.C. Parkinson, an illustrious English Mason, frankly avows: "The two systems of Romanism and Freemasonry are not only incompatible, but they are radically opposed to each other" [The Freemason's Chronicle 1884, II, 17. ] and American Masons say: "We won't make a man a Freemason, until we know that he isn't a Catholic." [The Freemason's Chronicle 1890, II, 347: see also 1898, I, 83.]


The action of the Church is summed up in the papal pronouncements against Freemasonry since 1738, the most important of which are:

Clement XII, Const. "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;
Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751;
Pius VII, "Ecclesiam", 13 September, 1821;
Leo XII, "Quo graviora", 13 March, 1825;
Pius VIII, Encycl. "Traditi", 21 May, 1829;
Gregory XVI, "Mirari", 15 August, 1832;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Qui pluribus", 9 November, 1846;
Pius IX, Alloc. "Quibus quantisque malis", 20 April, 1849;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Quanta cura", 8 December, 1864;
Pius IX, Alloc. "Multiplices inter", 25 September, 1865;
Pius IX, Const. "Apostolicæ Sedis", 12 October, 1869;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Etsi multa", 21 November, 1873;
Leo XIII, Encycl. "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
Leo XIII, "Præclara", 20 June, 1894;
Leo XIII, "Annum ingressi", 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
Leo XIII, Encycl. "Etsí nos", 15 February, 1882;
Leo XIII, "Ab Apostolici", 15 October, 1890.

Catholics since 1738 are, under penalty of excommunication, incurred ipso facto, and reserved to the pope, strictly forbidden to enter or promote in any way Masonic societies.

So what about when Indy says to the "Top Men" "didn't you ever go to Sunday School?"

Pale Horse said:

So what about when Indy says to the "Top Men" "didn't you ever go to Sunday School?"

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Well, that might imply that Indy went to Sunday School. When combined with Henry's Sr.'s slap in the face for misusing the name of God in Last Crusade, I'm going to guess that Indy had some sort of religious upbringing. Whether or not it was Catholic, I can't say. I'm going to guess it was something older and more conservative, just because it would seem out of character for Henry Sr. to be at very charismatic church.

I have always considered Henry and Indy been catholic, i mean in last crusade is where you can clearly see Indy was brought up in a religious way, we can see the 3 threats of God before he can reach his goal, we see that Henry´s house is full of catholic paintings, and we see Henry´s obsession with the holy grial, i can see it very clear, but hey just my view

Deadlock said:

Well, that might imply that Indy went to Sunday School. When combined with Henry's Sr.'s slap in the face for misusing the name of God in Last Crusade, I'm going to guess that Indy had some sort of religious upbringing. Whether or not it was Catholic, I can't say. I'm going to guess it was something older and more conservative, just because it would seem out of character for Henry Sr. to be at very charismatic church.

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Well, Indy's upbringing isn't the question, what I was so dreadfully trying to imply was that (at least in the 1st film) Musgrove and Eaton (now to be M&E) feigned their ignorance to anything called the Ark (which appealled to Indy's instructors nature) so they roped him into going after it. But, when the package was delivered, it was a whole different story.

I still think I am not making sense.

Pale Horse said:

Well, Indy's upbringing isn't the question, what I was so dreadfully trying to imply was that (at least in the 1st film) Musgrove and Eaton (now to be M&E) feigned their ignorance to anything called the Ark (which appealled to Indy's instructors nature) so they roped him into going after it. But, when the package was delivered, it was a whole different story.

I still think I am not making sense.

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I think that it's altogether likely, that even if M&E are Masons (why not? DC membership was up in the 1930s) it remains entirely possible that they were not feigning ignorance.

It should be noted, that the great majority of Masons are far from being "initiated" and "are groveling in Egyptian darkness". [The Freemason's Chronicle 1878, II, 28.] "The Masonry of the higher degrees", says Pike [The Inner Sanctuary (1870-79)] "teaches the great truths of intellectual science; but as to these, even as to the rudiments and first principles, Blue Masonry is absolutely dumb."

Perhaps M&E were simply themselves pawns of "top men." ("Top men" like Henry A. Wallace...)

Indyologist said:

I personally do not think that Indy had any associations with the Masons. However, that was a be-yoo-tiful description of an Ideal man and parts of it did bring Indy to mind. Thanks for sharing it.

The only association I know of that Indy was part of was the Greek fraternity he belonged to at U of C. Can't remember what that was. Fraternites/Sororities are usually associated with some kind of profession, so perhaps his frat had to do with history/archeology.

I bet he was a member of some kind of archeological society, though. I'm not sure what kind of assocations with this profession exsisted back then. Also, I don't know what kind of grades Indy got as he went for his Masters, but I bet they were pretty high. I guess he was Ravenwood's most promising student, so one can only imagine that he was probably in some honor society and most likely graduated with honors.

Wish we could make up a "resume" for Indy. Anyone up to it? It would be interesting to have as a reference work, or even just for fun.

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There isn't an archaeology fraternity. Lambda Alpha is the Anthropology fraternity, but wasn't founded until the early 1970s. Eta Sigma Phi is Classics fraternity and Phi Alpha Theta is the history fraternity... either would be appropriate for Indy. Eta Sigma Phi was established in the teens and Phi Alpha Theta in the 20s.

As for professional memberships... it's very likely he'd have been a member of the AIA (Archaeological Institute of America) - established in 1879 and chartered by Congress in 1906.

He also might have been a member of ASOR (American School of Oriental Research), which has been around since the turn of the century and is centered on Near and Middle Eastern (including Egypt) and Biblical archaeology.

Shovelbum said:

There isn't an archaeology fraternity. Lambda Alpha is the Anthropology fraternity, but wasn't founded until the early 1970s. Eta Sigma Phi is Classics fraternity and Phi Alpha Theta is the history fraternity... either would be appropriate for Indy. Eta Sigma Phi was established in the teens and Phi Alpha Theta in the 20s.

As for professional memberships... it's very likely he'd have been a member of the AIA (Archaeological Institute of America) - established in 1879 and chartered by Congress in 1906.

He also might have been a member of ASOR (American School of Oriental Research), which has been around since the turn of the century and is centered on Near and Middle Eastern (including Egypt) and Biblical archaeology.

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Excellent post shovelbum. It makes me wonder a bit. What sorts of papers would Indy have had to submit to his collegues? Is he published? How does he document his "finds"?

Deadlock said:

Perhaps M&E were simply themselves pawns of "top men." ("Top men" like Henry A. Wallace...)

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H.A.W., the agriculturalist?

I'll throw other "Top-Men" into the mix:

Frank Byron Rowlett
and
William Frederick Friedman

Pale Horse said:

H.A.W., the agriculturalist?

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Operative word "LIKE."

Yes, yours are better matches. Wallace was from Iowa and I saw something on him recently. Apparently, he was a factor in getting the Great Seal on the dollar. So, I'm thinking he had some influence beyond agriculture.

No, it can't be!



Doesn't get much higher than him!