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Old 09-27-2010, 02:39 PM   #51
Lao_Che
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Personally, I wish Lucas would just let the novels be canon.

He hasn't stopped them being canon.
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Old 09-27-2010, 09:35 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Personally, I wish Lucas would just let the novels be canon.

NONE OF THIS IS REAL. There isn't real make-believe vs false make-believe. The novels can be whatever you want them to be. The novels are Indiana Jones stories, Lucas' thoughts on them are inconsequential.

I generally find the novels much more enjoyable than the films. Particularly the MacGregor novels. When I'm reading them (I happen to be reading one now), I'm reading an Indiana Jones story. I don't give a single moment of thought to where they are on some sort of official Lucas website\time-line\guide book\canon\etc - nor do I care what Lucas has decided they can or can't be.

Lucas doesn't make mental decisions for me.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:56 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by StoneTriple
NONE OF THIS IS REAL. There isn't real make-believe vs false make-believe. The novels can be whatever you want them to be. The novels are Indiana Jones stories, Lucas' thoughts on them are inconsequential.

I generally find the novels much more enjoyable than the films. Particularly the MacGregor novels. When I'm reading them (I happen to be reading one now), I'm reading an Indiana Jones story. I don't give a single moment of thought to where they are on some sort of official Lucas website\time-line\guide book\canon\etc - nor do I care what Lucas has decided they can or can't be.

Lucas doesn't make mental decisions for me.

Terrifically put StoneTriple! Weather they are canon or not really depends on whether you liked the story or not. If you loved the story enough you would still love it whether or not GL came along and said “actually, you know what people, no... that’s not canon." (Not that he would- I don't even think he's ever read a Indy novel ). You wouldn’t just burn the book and be done with the story just because he said it wasn’t canon. And if you would do this, please get opinions of your own soon!

For me I would consider:
• Peril at Delphi
• Dance of the Giants
• Seven Veils
• Genesis Deluge
• Philosopher's Stone
• Hollow Earth
• Secret of the Sphinx
All fine additions to the canon (though I am a little conflicted by the marriage to Deidre) and I don’t care if GL was to come out and say all of the Bantam book stories are canon I wouldn’t suddenly acknowledge the others (with the exception of Unicorn's Legacy and Dinosaur Eggs which are starting to grow on me). And you know why, because I like them not because someone says it happened in the EU. And then this might not be exactly true for the next person and that doesn't matter to me!

Sorry for the rant!

Last edited by Col. Detritch : 09-28-2010 at 05:07 AM.
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Col. Detritch
Sorry for the rant!

No apologies necessary, Col.

I agree with StoneTriple's assessment, and I suspect this is also the manner in which he would view the James Bond stories/films.

You enjoy what you want to enjoy, however it fills your imagination.

Me being me, however, I do like chronologies to be all nice, neat and orderly. I like to see the connections between books or between films. When something suddenly seems out of place and realistically cannot be fitted into that order, then it's a niggle. I just tell myself that the piece that doesn't fit was the result of a character seeing or hearing something from a different viewpoint: a misunderstood fact. That way, there need be no conflict.
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Old 09-28-2010, 06:26 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Me being me, however, I do like chronologies to be all nice, neat and orderly. I like to see the connections between books or between films. When something suddenly seems out of place and realistically cannot be fitted into that order, then it's a niggle. I just tell myself that the piece that doesn't fit was the result of a character seeing or hearing something from a different viewpoint: a misunderstood fact. That way, there need be no conflict.

I too like things to fit chronologically but don't like it when it gets in the way of that aforementioned enjoyment. I think you sentiment about a character hearing or seeing something from a different view point is what people should be doing when it comes to things like this.

Philosopher’s Stone and Iron Phoenix both deal with the Philosopher’s stone as the maguffin and I like both stories so I chose to see it as Indy dealing with two different stones both with the same name. My reasoning is that IP deals with Albertus Magnus and his version of the story of the stone and PS involving Nicholas Flamel and his account of the stone. These are both separate historical accounts about a 'Philosopher’s stone' but the origins behind them are completely different. But that’s just me over analysing for my own benefit; however this, in its own way, helps me overlook the nagging urge to choose when it’s not necessary to be able to enjoy a decent narrative.
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:47 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneTriple
NONE OF THIS IS REAL. There isn't real make-believe vs false make-believe. The novels can be whatever you want them to be. The novels are Indiana Jones stories, Lucas' thoughts on them are inconsequential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I do like chronologies to be all nice, neat and orderly. I like to see the connections between books or between films.

He was born on film and for me, THAT is the be all end all.

I agree with Stone Triple on many points, but most of all that this can all be what you want it to be.

I like things to be orderly as well. Unfortunately the past like the future is always in motion, so default/defacto are the films.

To me the other stuff is just fluff however much fun. I still have a great copy of Greedo being fried first, as such I'm thankful the Cairo Swordsman still hasn't "shot first."

I go back once again to "Splinter of the Mind's Eye." A fine book no doubt, but meaningless, contradictory and as a child I deemed it a waste of time. I wanted to know more about Star Wars and this was a dead end. So, no such thing as a "Grand Admiral Thrawn", no such thing as "The Solo Twins" (can't wait for THAT Nickelodeon series)...screw that crap.

Same with Indy. Read them enjoy them. Build a universe out of them, waste your time. The films either validate or invalidate ALL other material.

So until we have some Blu-Ray tweaks, there's only one Indy "canon" and it fell off the cliff with Vogel.



As Lao(land) Che(e) writes:

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Originally Posted by Lao_Che
He hasn't stopped them being canon.
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:55 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Triple
I generally find the novels much more enjoyable than the films.
Really? Other than that, I agree with everything you wrote above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Detritch
Philosopher’s Stone and Iron Phoenix both deal with the Philosopher’s stone as the maguffin and I like both stories so I chose to see it as Indy dealing with two different stones both with the same name. My reasoning is that IP deals with Albertus Magnus and his version of the story of the stone and PS involving Nicholas Flamel and his account of the stone. These are both separate historical accounts about a 'Philosopher’s stone' but the origins behind them are completely different.
Plus, Indy also goes after Nicolas Flamel's account of the stone in the French comic, "Indiana Jones et le Grimore Maudit". All 3 of the Philosopher's Stone stories were published within a few months of each other in 1995. Oh, the conundrum!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao_Che
He hasn't stopped them being canon.
True and if anyone would know, it'd be you. However Lucas has said things here & there which indicate that they're not.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:10 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Really? Other than that, I agree with everything you wrote above.
They're deeper and more detailed, which is to be expected. You can only put so much detail into a two-hour film. Don't get me wrong, man, I dig the films and watch them regularly. I also listen to full-film rips of the audio tracks regularly, as a sort of books-on-film type deal. However, if I want to get deep into detail I go for the books, particularly MacGregor.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:47 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I agree with StoneTriple's assessment, and I suspect this is also the manner in which he would view the James Bond stories/films.
It is. In a series of films and novels spanning 57 years there are going to be things that don't necessarily fit perfectly. It's not something I ever give any thought to. In a licensed franchise such as Indiana Jones, there isn't correct & incorrect. If the owners commissioned and allowed it, that's good enough for me.
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Old 09-28-2010, 01:19 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
He was born on film and for me, THAT is the be all end all.

Really?!?



Well, there's no point doing anything you don't want to, or don't have to, because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
...this can all be what you want it to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
I like things to be orderly as well. Unfortunately the past like the future is always in motion, so default/defacto are the films.

To me the other stuff is just fluff however much fun.

Apart from the WEG Role-Playing Games, movie novelizations, comics and Young Indy, I haven't strayed into the expanded universe of novels. That could mean the movies are holding my attention enough not to want to. In which case we're probably seeing this from the same angle.

In any case, the films come first whenever the chronology is in doubt.

Quote:
I still have a great copy of Greedo being fried first,

In the darkest moments, when all looks lost, and uncle George appears to have totally lost the plot, I'll put in the original un-ameliorated Star Wars DVD, and enjoy watching Han shoot first.

Quote:
...as such I'm thankful the Cairo Swordsman still hasn't "shot first."

One of the greatest and most cynical gags to ever grace the big screen! If George ever messed with that scene, well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
I go back once again to "Splinter of the Mind's Eye." A fine book no doubt, but meaningless, contradictory and as a child I deemed it a waste of time. I wanted to know more about Star Wars and this was a dead end. So, no such thing as a "Grand Admiral Thrawn", no such thing as "The Solo Twins" (can't wait for THAT Nickelodeon series)...screw that crap.

I loved Splinter. So much so that I'll make it fit into the canon no matter what it takes! Especially since Alan Dean Foster was the ghost writer of Star Wars! My favourite novels were those early ones - the original Han Solo and Lando trilogies. That was the tone and settings that the prequels should have gone for. As it is we got three movies that were quite alien to the original three.

So, whenever we come up against the issue of canon/non-canon and disappointing movies or books, we all have the choice of making the effort to view them the way we see best (the customer is always right!), since it is, after all, only entertainment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
So until we have some Blu-Ray tweaks, there's only one Indy "canon" and it fell off the cliff with Vogel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneTriple
They're deeper and more detailed, which is to be expected.

The novelizations are a great companion to the films. Because I'm hungry to know everything there is about the story, the books are essential. They add back story and extra scenes, and reading them is like imagining watching a longer version of the film itself.
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:11 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Plenty of things in the films tell us that 1935 is not his 1st adventure. In "Raiders", Marcus says, "It's like nothing you've ever gone after before." and Indy is called "an obtainer of rare antiquities". One year would seem too short to have that sort of reputation. From "Doom":

1) Indy's weathered clothes
2) Indy's skill & resourcefulness with a whip
3) Indy's knowledge, experience & wariness of booby-traps, finding secret passages, etc.
4) Indy 'found Nurhachi' before the film begins
5) Wu Han says he has followed Indy on 'many adventure'
6) Chatter Lal has heard Dr. Jones' name from studying at Oxford and directly refers to pre-1935 events in Honduras and Madagascar

Even though the "Chronicles" ends in 1920, Lucas had a 'vision' of 2 episodes set in 1921 which were planned to have adventurous themes with Indy on expedition in both stories. (The "Brazil" episode would've contradicted the "Seven Veils" novel.) Excluding the unproduced shows, there's still the hunt for the Eye of the Peacock, the Jackal's head (and the Cross of Coronado).

Without the novels, Lucas' vision was more more like 1921-19?? but, years ago, I remember reading where he talked about the untold gap between the TV series and the movies. He said something like (paraphrasing), "I'll leave it to someone else to tell those stories." (Wish I could find the quote!)

Not quite sure what you mean about 'first adventure'. Do you mean 1st mystical one?

I mean his first real adventure where he's the guy with the hat, leather jacket, the whip, etc--Where he's the tough and street wise Indiana we know from the Harrison movies. In Peacock's Eye, he's still even after the war a naive, not really 'macho' kid who gives up because a preachy anthropologist tells him it's a bad idea to keep going essentially. That's the problem with the Chronicles--Did he have to meet a famous person in EVERY episode? Why couldn't they have Indy ever actually get past being a squeaky clean, totally PC character in the series?

A lot of the stories themselves are nice stories, but they still would've been better stories without the historical characters involved, and if you had a better actor portraying Indy--Sean Patrick Flannery comes off like a wuss. Just like I've said when talking about the idea of Tom Selleck as Indy--The problem with SPF, like Selleck, is his voice. Harrison Ford has a deep, distinctive voice; He sounds pretty authoritative. It's a part of the character just like everything else is, and let's be honest: Could you expect someone like SPF or Tom Selleck to say, "Let her go!" in Raiders and come off as commanding? His voice is part of what makes him come off badas* SPF even by the last Chronicles episode still has that high pitched (for Indy) voice and giggles too much and comes off somehow, I don't know, effete? He's not street wise at all. He doesn't come off at all rogue-ish. He never even lets his stubble grow out, not even when he's at war, nor when he's searching for the Peacock's Eye. He's always dressed way too formally. Yeah, the scene where he uses the whip in 1916 is cool, but it would've been nice to see him don the "Indy gear" for the first time in the Chronicles.
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Old 09-28-2010, 10:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
That's the problem with the Chronicles--Did he have to meet a famous person in EVERY episode?

I always saw the purpose of the Chronicles (besides showing us Indy's early years) as a history lesson with Indy in it. But that's just me.
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:06 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Triple
They're deeper and more detailed, which is to be expected. You can only put so much detail into a two-hour film. Don't get me wrong, man, I dig the films and watch them regularly. I also listen to full-film rips of the audio tracks regularly, as a sort of books-on-film type deal. However, if I want to get deep into detail I go for the books, particularly MacGregor.
I can see where you're coming from, Stone. Having seen the films so many times since the '80s, I rarely watch them in full anymore and well appreciate all the extra Indy tales in books & comics. Indy literature is the only thing I collect outside of the videos (+ artwork, graphics) but can't say I "enjoy" them more than the movies & TV show. That said, any starving fan should be glad there is so much out there!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I mean his first real adventure where he's the guy with the hat, leather jacket, the whip, etc--Where he's the tough and street wise Indiana we know from the Harrison movies.
How does this define a "real adventure"? You must mean the 1st adventure with the 'real Indiana Jones'? Anyway, Indy does more than only "seducing Marion" between 1920-1935. His other adventures are referred to within the films themselves (as I pointed out above) even though we don't see them.

As for the Bantam novels being canon: Until a filmed adventure comes along which contradicts them, why can't they be? It's highly probable that most Indy literature fans consider them canon in that they supercede/co-exist with any other 'expanded universe' material set during the same period (English & French comic books, German novels, video games, role-playing games, Find-Your-Fate books, etc.)

Anyway, you're whining about Flanery in your own thread about the Bantam books. I would comment on some of it (especially the stubble remark) but this really isn't the place.
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:44 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Plus, Indy also goes after Nicolas Flamel's account of the stone in the French comic, "Indiana Jones et le Grimore Maudit". All 3 of the Philosopher's Stone stories were published within a few months of each other in 1995. Oh, the conundrum!

There may also be another (or more) in WEG's ...1995 Indiana Jones Artifacts.

And whatever was going on Beyond the Lucifer Chamber!
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:23 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Col. Detritch
I always saw the purpose of the Chronicles (besides showing us Indy's early years) as a history lesson with Indy in it. But that's just me.

I know it was part of Lucas' idea...But I mean in some episodes he would meet 2 to 3 famous figures. It was a little overkill.
I don't understand why he couldn't have just made a Young Indy that would've been like the Harrison movies. He could've made a brand new character if edutainment was more important than telling Indy's story, because often times in the Chronicles, it does seem the event or figure Indy is meeting takes precedence over HIS story as a character.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:00 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
...often times in the Chronicles, it does seem the event or figure Indy is meeting takes precedence over HIS story as a character.

Actually I don't find that the historical figures overshadow Indy. I'm interested in how they influence him. So it is all Indy's story.

An example:
Albert Schwietzer influenced Indy's view of life. He kills when necessary, but not wantonly. This episode transitioned him from blindly following orders as a soldier to his decision to join the intelligence service in an effort to end the war more quickly.

And there are many more...
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Junior Jones
Actually I don't find that the historical figures overshadow Indy. I'm interested in how they influence him. So it is all Indy's story.

An example:
Albert Schwietzer influenced Indy's view of life. He kills when necessary, but not wantonly. This episode transitioned him from blindly following orders as a soldier to his decision to join the intelligence service in an effort to end the war more quickly.

And there are many more...

While Lucas had intended the TV series to be educational, so much effort went into the production that it begs to be more than just a dramatized history show for children. It really does deserve a place in Indy canon.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:50 PM   #68
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Heh...I was looking at the New Posts page, and saw this thread, and misread the word "Bantam" as "Batman". Batman novels in the Indyverse? Huh?

Sorry for going off-topic.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:57 PM   #69
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Heh...I was looking at the New Posts page, and saw this thread, and misread the word "Bantam" as "Batman". Batman novels in the Indyverse? Huh?

Sorry for going off-topic.

Maybe it could be it's own thread? An Indy/Batman cross-over could work quite well.
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:41 PM   #70
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I guess, when all is considered, they (both the Chronicles and the Bantam books) are indeed canon--In that they tell the story of Indy's early adventures and life.
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Old 10-08-2010, 06:41 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I guess, when all is considered, they (both the Chronicles and the Bantam books) are indeed canon--In that they tell the story of Indy's early adventures and life.
Might as well include the Young Indy books from Random House since they fill the gap between 1912-1915.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao_Che
There may also be another (or more) in WEG's ...1995 Indiana Jones Artifacts.

And whatever was going on Beyond the Lucifer Chamber!
A 4th Philospher's Stone? Is "Beyond the Lucifer Chamber" a West End Games module?
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:17 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Stoo
A 4th Philospher's Stone? Is "Beyond the Lucifer Chamber" a West End Games module?

Issue 21 of the Marvel comics. It isn't seen, but Austin Coleridge claims he touched the Philosopher's Stone which has turned his hand to gold and it lies behind the door in the Lucifer Chamber (in a mine in Wales).

He thinks the door is the path to an underground city called Agharta which is the home to a lost but still active group of alchemists.

-

Of the WEG books, I like Indiana Jones Artifacts alot. Most of it's presented as the journal fragments of some nameless archaeologist commissioned to index the world's artifacts. Their worth, locations, powers and hearsay etc.

I'm not typing the whole section but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana Jones Artifacts
The philosopher's stone in question belonged to an amateur German alchemist who was hung by Frederick of Wurzburg.

It then says the alchemist didn't know its true natue and after his death, the stone was confiscated but as the officials didn't regard it either, the Stone was tossed aside and used as a brick in the building of a clock tower at Wurzburg.

The additional "Rumors and Legends" notes include one saying that a ground up philosopher's stone is required to make the formula for Greek fire, and another note saying that if there's one source of stones, it's in China where they first appeared.
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Old 10-09-2010, 02:35 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Might as well include the Young Indy books from Random House since they fill the gap between 1912-1915.
A 4th Philospher's Stone? Is "Beyond the Lucifer Chamber" a West End Games module?

I wish they would reprint the Young Indy books. I never got a chance to read them.
I personally consider the canon this way:

Movies & YIJC A tier Canon. Indisputably canon.
Novels B Tier--Most true, the details might be sketchy in some, but overall canon
Video games--Half and half. I consider games like Infernal Machine and FoA canon, the others are so-so.
Everything else (Non-Canon)--I don't consider the comics, RPG stuff, sourcebooks, etc, canon.
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Old 08-14-2013, 01:03 AM   #74
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Bump? Just wanted to get some newer opinions on this.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:29 AM   #75
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In my personal canon, I try to make everything fits: The Movies, Young Indy, the novels, the comics, the young adult books, the FYF books, and the games.
So far I had no big deal working that out (even with 3 philospher's stones, the only thing I haven't figured out yet is the 2 Emperor Quin's tombs).

THere are a few things that I don't include in my personal canon: Desktop adventures, the Star Wars crossover comic, and that facebook game (There's probably more, but I don't remember right now).

And just for the record: The novels are my second favorite media for Indy, right after the movies.
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