Does the finale hold up to the original 3? (thoughts & opinions)

Darth Vile said:
... and could have been better placed (or something similar) within the Orellana's tomb section of the movie.
Funny you should mention that, Orellana's Cradle was supposed to end with the whole set falling apart with Mutt using the mummies' armor to keep from plummeting to the basin below.

Though not at the end on a series of ever accelerating action pieces...

Udvarnoky is right about the staircase, and it illustrates the problem with many of the "stunts" in the film...they're there for the sake of being there, posing the same danger as a set of hurdles to a runner.
 
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Darth Vile

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Rocket Surgeon said:
Funny you should mention that, Orellana's Cradle was supposed to end with the whole set falling apart with Mutt using the mummies' armor to keep from plummeting to the basin below.

Though not at the end on a series of ever accelerating action pieces...

Udvarnoky is right about the staircase, and it illustrates the problem with many of the "stunts" in the film...they're there for the sake of being there, posing the same danger as a set of hurdles to a runner.

Oh, I'd agree with your underlying sentiment i.e. "a set of hurdles"... but I would position that by saying, that's like all the Indy movies. The real exception (IMHO) is that KOTCS doesn't utilize it's one and only booby trap well i.e. it's there, but it's not a significant set piece (for the reasons we've discussed).
 
Darth Vile said:
but I would position that by saying, that's like all the Indy movies.

I'd disagree in lumping Raiders in there...

Whereas parallels can be drawn, (see: "Why is Mutt Looking at guys buts" thread specifically: Why Short Round is gay), there is death illustrating consequence in every action scene. Satipo dies, Baranca dies, it seems all but Toht/Indy/Marion die, in The Raven, monkeys die, henchmen/hired thugs are shot stabbed and bludgeoned (that last one off screen). The threat is established on screen.

This is one very important facet that builds tension along with the progression of the threats.

How tough would it have been to look down into the temple with the retracting stairs and see the spikes…maybe say something like, "spikes why'd it have to be spikes"?

It wouldn't have been difficult and as mentioned before (by Ud?) it would have established some tension beside just out running a disappearing slab. I think you agree on this point, taken your earlier posts, but as said this is symptomatic of the "rush job" CS suffers from...and to my point Raiders does not.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Darth Vile said:
I've mentioned before, seems somewhat out of place... and could have been better placed (or something similar) within the Orellana's tomb section of the movie.

Or they could have left it where it was and actually expounded the Ugha chase and obelisk puzzle in ways that made them exciting instead of boring.

Darth Vile said:
Oh, I'd agree with your underlying sentiment i.e. "a set of hurdles"... but I would position that by saying, that's like all the Indy movies.

There's a difference between what something is and what something feels like, the latter being all that matters in the context of a movie. Raiders of the Lost Ark is a sequence of rapidly projected still images which generate the illusion of motion, but most people were too engaged to ever think about it on those terms. When watching the set pieces in the original trilogy, I did not feel like I was watching a functional element of the screenplay or a craftily staged obstacle to pad the movie's runtime, even if someone could come along and helpfully point out that they technically are those things.

When watching Indy4, I feel a little bit more like I'm on the outside looking in, whether the cynicism is my fault or the movie's. It's just how it plays for me. Maybe it's me being older and the years of anticipation (no doubt what you and James would say), or maybe the movie actually has serious failings. In any event, the fact that all four movies can be broken down into some similar generic template isn't interesting to me. What's interesting to me is the fact that I was actually thinking about Indy4 in terms of screenplay/pacing/structure while I was watching it, which, in my opinion, isn't an effect it should have been having on me. Seriously, if I'm thinking about the three act paradigm while an Indiana Jones movie is on the screen opening night, somebody messed up somewhere down the line, whether you want to point the finger at the film makers or my attitude.
 
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Darth Vile

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Rocket Surgeon said:
I'd disagree in lumping Raiders in there...

Whereas parallels can be drawn, (see: "Why is Mutt Looking at guys buts" thread specifically: Why Short Round is gay), there is death illustrating consequence in every action scene. Satipo dies, Baranca dies, it seems all but Toht/Indy/Marion die, in The Raven, monkeys die, henchmen/hired thugs are shot stabbed and bludgeoned (that last one off screen). The threat is established on screen.

This is one very important facet that builds tension along with the progression of the threats.

How tough would it have been to look down into the temple with the retracting stairs and see the spikes?maybe say something like, "spikes why'd it have to be spikes"?

It wouldn't have been difficult and as mentioned before (by Ud?) it would have established some tension beside just out running a disappearing slab. I think you agree on this point, taken your earlier posts, but as said this is symptomatic of the "rush job" CS suffers from...and to my point Raiders does not.

I don?t necessarily equate death count to heightened sense of tension and peril (watch any number of Michael Bay or McG movies to see that point demonstrated). I do find Raiders to be the one most grounded in a sense of reality, but I can't say that it makes it a more tense/perilous/exciting experience for me (just that I enjoy it's world more). Ironically Raiders is the movie my nephews find the least exciting/entertaining - mainly because they see it as being somewhat slower than the others, with the romantic element of Marion being the kiss of death to their enjoyment (apologies Ronicle)...

So...back to the point... I personally don't have an issue with a lack of sense of danger/peril in KOTCS, because I perceive little in the other movies (certainly TOD and TLC). What I was agreeing with was in this particular example, the retracting staircase; that it does seem somewhat random, out of place, and to some extent redundant. Not sure why this occurred, other than perhaps Spielberg/Lucas, late on in pre production, needed to throw a booby trap into the mix. And without it being conceived organically (if you know what I mean), it falls a little short.
 

Darth Vile

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Udvarnoky said:
Or they could have left it where it was and actually expounded the Ugha chase and obelisk puzzle in ways that made them exciting instead of boring.

They could. But I personally feel that it’s too late on in the movie for that. I think if anything, Spielberg/Lucas should have taken a leaf out of TOD’s finale, and gone with an all out action set piece rather than trying to balance the philosophical with the action (which doesn't quite work).

Udvarnoky said:
When watching the set pieces in the original trilogy, I did not feel like I was watching a functional element of the screenplay or a craftily staged obstacle to pad the movie's runtime, even if someone could come along and helpfully point out that they technically are those things.

Raiders aside, I felt that TOD and TLC were padded with numerous superfluous obstacles and challenges. Many of which we’ve discussed before (the first half of TLC being the worst offender I think).

Udvarnoky said:
When watching Indy4, I feel a little bit more like I'm on the outside looking in, whether the cynicism is my fault or the movie's. It's just how it plays for me. Maybe it's me being older and the years of anticipation (no doubt what you and James would say), or maybe the movie actually has serious failings. In any event, the fact that all four movies can be broken down into some similar generic template isn't interesting to me. What's interesting to me is the fact that I was actually thinking about Indy4 in terms of screenplay/pacing/structure while I was watching it, which, in my opinion, isn't an effect it should have been having on me. Seriously, if I'm thinking about the three act paradigm while an Indiana Jones movie is on the screen opening night, somebody messed up somewhere down the line, whether you want to point the finger at the film makers or my attitude.

Being pragmatic, it’s probably a bit of both… I certainly remember feeling seriously dismayed when watching TOD for the first time (in that they seemed to turn a serious action hero into a gimmicky kids film).
 
Darth Vile said:
I don?t necessarily equate death count to heightened sense of tension and peril (watch any number of Michael Bay or McG movies to see that point demonstrated).

Is that how you read my point?

Though American soldiers and countless Ugahs die in the film, it doesn't heighten the tension like the fight at the Raven does, the Cairo market place, the truck chase.

As mentioned it's a facet, and one sorely missing in CS.

Another facet as you've restated is arbitrary nature of the temple entrance/staircase.

The biggest problem with it is they've not established a reason to be frightened or wary of the temples. After all until the Ugahs come out and attack there's no precedent set so the spectacle of the stairs comes and goes as some out of place, ambiguous, one shot pitfall.
 

Darth Vile

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Rocket Surgeon said:
Is that how you read my point?

I thought you were making an association between a tangible sense of danger/peril, and a modicum of “on screen” death. I’m simply stating that I don’t necessarily subscribe to that view. If that’s not what you meant, then that’s fine…

Rocket Surgeon said:
Though American soldiers and countless Ugahs die in the film, it doesn't heighten the tension like the fight at the Raven does, the Cairo market place, the truck chase.

I think the only real sense of tangible danger and peril I feel/felt when watching Raiders was inside the fertility idol temple... which is a master class (in both direction and music) in building suspense. The Raven bar, market place are fun action scenes, but I'd never class them as "on the edge of your seat" type set pieces (I actually think the fight at the landing strip is the best conceived/implemented fight/action scene in Raiders).

Rocket Surgeon said:
The biggest problem with it is they've not established a reason to be frightened or wary of the temples. After all until the Ugahs come out and attack there's no precedent set so the spectacle of the stairs comes and goes as some out of place, ambiguous, one shot pitfall.

Agreed. The danger of Akator is somewhat undersold. It could have done with a simple "Nobody has ever come out of there alive" moment.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Darth Vile said:
Agreed. The danger of Akator is somewhat undersold. It could have done with a simple "Nobody has ever come out of there alive" moment.

Another thing I think they could have done, and this has little to do with danger, is simply allow the size of Akator to register with the audience. I was watching the part where they reach Akator yesterday, to see if I still feel the same way about the Ugha's appearance (I do), and there's this wide shot - it couldn't last more than a second or two - of the entire valley as the characters are running down the stone steps:

375.jpg


I think the only other time we get a money shot of the valley is when it's being destroyed. In this movie, Indiana Jones finds an entire lost city, yet the movie doesn't seem fascinated enough to really explore that fact. 95% of our time is spent in subterranean caverns, when there was plenty of opportunity to allow the characters (and the audience) to take in the scope of their discovery. Maybe if the Ugha chase had lasted beyond the base of the stairs, we could have gotten to see a bit more of the city's exterior? I think Indy's home office is more explored a location than The Lost City of Gold.
 
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JP Jones

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Udvarnoky said:
Another thing I think they could have done, and this has little to do with danger, is simply allow the size of Akator to register with the audience. I was watching the part where they reach Akator yesterday, to see if I still feel the same way about the Ugha's appearance (I do), and there's this wide shot - it couldn't last more than a second or two - of the entire valley as the characters are running down the stone steps:

375.jpg


I think the only other time we get a money shot of the valley is when it's being destroyed. In this movie, Indiana Jones finds an entire lost city, yet the movie doesn't seem fascinated enough to really explore that fact. 95% of our time is spent in subterranean caverns, when there was plenty of opportunity to allow the characters (and the audience) to take in the scope of their discovery. Maybe if the Ugha chase had lasted beyond the base of the stairs, we could have gotten to see a bit more of the city's exterior? I think Indy's home office is more explored a location than The Lost City of Gold.
That's probably the biggest improvement the movie could have made. More exploration. I'd like something similar to the begining of the staircase scene, only more elaborate. A longer Ugha chase would not hurt either. I saw that little part on the trailer, and that made me most excited, but it didn;t last as long as I hoped.
 

Darth Vile

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Udvarnoky said:
Another thing I think they could have done, and this has little to do with danger, is simply allow the size of Akator to register with the audience. I was watching the part where they reach Akator yesterday, to see if I still feel the same way about the Ugha's appearance (I do), and there's this wide shot - it couldn't last more than a second or two - of the entire valley as the characters are running down the stone steps:


I think the only other time we get a money shot of the valley is when it's being destroyed. In this movie, Indiana Jones finds an entire lost city, yet the movie doesn't seem fascinated enough to really explore that fact. 95% of our time is spent in subterranean caverns, when there was plenty of opportunity to allow the characters (and the audience) to take in the scope of their discovery. Maybe if the Ugha chase had lasted beyond the base of the stairs, we could have gotten to see a bit more of the city's exterior? I think Indy's home office is more explored a location than The Lost City of Gold.

Yeah - I would have liked that too. Perhaps they were simply limited by the fact that the city was CGI. Maybe they felt that had to pull back from too many effects shots at that point (given that the ending is a bit of a CGI fest)???
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Well, the majority of the exterior of the two temples was practical as was the big grassy area where they're cornered by the Ugha. I daresay CGI had nothing to do with it. The screenplay did. And certainly, Spielberg shares blame for not taking an opportunity to do more than the lameness Koepp offered.

Regarding the "CGI fest" part, I just want to say that my problems with the CGI use in the finale had to do with the back projection rather than with abundant effects. (After all, the light show in the Raiders climax set that precedent.) The shot I posted above was very well done, but I did not care for the CGI Amazon backdrops in general, which felt very fake to me. (The biggest culprits for me are the obelisk scene and the dialog scene after they're shot out the well at the end.) It made the movie feel very "shot on a set," which is bad when we're supposed to be in a South American exterior. Temple of Doom got away with it because the majority of the movie past the halfway point is underground anyway. The genuine Sri Lanka footage early on established that we were in an exotic place. In Indy4, we get a marketplace backlot and a CGI helicopter shot of a cemetery model with a CGI background of Peruvian mountains, but we're lacking that critical bit of actual location footage to mix in with the fakery and sell the illusion. Kinda makes you wish they didn't blow the majority of their location budget on US settings.

I think it did hurt the movie that nothing after Indy leaving New York was actually shot in the location the story takes him, save for the plates they shot for the aforementioned backdrops in Akator and the waterfall sequence. Isn't that when it's most needed? Aren't these movies partly about the globetrotting and being in faraway places? They of course shot the jungle chase in an actual jungle, but the fact that everyone thought it was CGI anyway tells you how successful that was in making us feel like we were somewhere other than a soundstage or computer.
 
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Cole

New member
Udvarnoky said:
My issue when watching it the first time was that I didn't understand what actually made the situation so dangerous, when it being dangerous was clearly part of the intent. After all, they did fall before making it all the way down, and all that happened was exactly what it seemed like would - they landed in some shallow water. The stone spikes were so sparse that they were more like decoration rather than a threat. And that effectively destroys any suspense/excitement the scene might have theoretically generated.

I realize that the scene is, design-wise, fundamentally different from something like the spike scene in Temple of Doom in that the objective is to Run As Fast As You Can rather than Find the Lever, but I still feel that the spike room is useful as a comparison because it shows you what this scene is lacking - clear danger. Even if time doesn't seem to pass consistently in Temple's scene (how many times do the spikes seem to be "almost" getting Indy and Shorty from the same ceiling height?), the key to what makes it work is that we understand what the solution is: Willie getting to the lever before Indy and Shorty get skewered. We're into the scene because we're given the solution before, and not after, the problem is solved. Again, this has nothing to do with the fact that the staircase sequence is intended to be more of a smaller, sudden type of scene. That's not an excuse for confusion.

How would I have changed the staircase, scene, then? I guess I would simply have made it so that the consequences of the heroes not getting to the bottom (or close enough) was more obvious. Maybe make it so that the retracting stairs lead directly to an entrance, with there being a bottomless pit instead of a floor. Or, make the floor entirely made of spikes so that we know that if they fall, they're screwed. Then when they do fall you can have Marion or somebody grab a stone extension for support which turns out to be the release lever or something. (That does not change the purpose of the scene from "Outrun the steps" to "Find the lever!") As it is in the movie there's no last minute escape/save because I wasn't sure if there was anything they had to escape from! I mean, okay, if you want to pretend these movies are photorealistic you could easily argue that falling from any height greater than they did would have potentially caused broken bones, but I think we can all agree that if "they would have broken their bones" is offered as a justification for something in an Indiana Jones movie, that person has gone off the deep end. Spikes, bottomless pits, pool of sharks, vat of lava, etc. are what's called for in a pulp adventure, not a freaking puddle.

By the way, I don't think my earlier complaint about the cost of the set is unfair, because the original trilogy was made with intentionally low budgets, with the sets and props being used to their fullest potential, because they had to be. They had to go through actual trouble to get that Nazi plane in Raiders, and Spielberg milked it for all it was worth with the Pat Roach fistfight - no machine gun, cement triangles, or propeller went unused, because Spielberg used that toy in every way a little kid might with a model plane. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull had a much bigger budget than the previous movies, and I do believe that holds true with inflation adjusted. (It is also, I believe, the first movie that wasn't finished under budget.) This movie has some of the most impressive sets in the whole series. So yes, I will be critical when I see a giant pyramid complete with a hundred armed Indian extras used for a perfunctory and wasted "action sequence," when you know damn well that in the 80s such expenses would have been the first thing Lucas would have cut from the budget if nothing creative or meaty was going to be done with it. Same goes with fully functional jungle cutters, giant obelisks that actually come together in an elaborate practical effect, and real retracting staircases built to scale. The production values in this movie are higher than the material deserves. Yes, the retracting staircase does work, if that's what your bar is, and it is not some horrible scene that I would ever cite as some gigantic failing that sinks the movie. It is, however, extremely representative of a problem that the movie suffers from in general, and it does contribute to a quality that I think separate Indy4 in spirit (rather than era, age, or special effects) from the other films.

I write a lot.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.......to me, the threat is pretty clearly established. You have to outrun the retracting stairs or else you fall and run the jeaopardy of getting speared.

The closer you are to the ground, the more control you have of where you land.

Like I said, not making the argument it's one of the all-time classic Indy scenes, but I'm on board with the adventure, and it works for me. Perhaps a more clearer shot of them jumping from the steps into the water would've sufficed, but that seems to be a fairly insignificant change to me.

I've also contemplated the use of the "trap" to begin with. If they want people to return the skull, they probably wouldn't want to kill them.
 

Cole

New member
Udvarnoky said:
Well, the majority of the exterior of the two temples was practical as was the big grassy area where they're cornered by the Ugha. I daresay CGI had nothing to do with it. The screenplay did. And certainly, Spielberg shares blame for not taking an opportunity to do more than the lameness Koepp offered.

Regarding the "CGI fest" part, I just want to say that my problems with the CGI use in the finale had to do with the back projection rather than with abundant effects. (After all, the light show in the Raiders climax set that precedent.) The shot I posted above was very well done, but I did not care for the CGI Amazon backdrops in general, which felt very fake to me. (The biggest culprits for me are the obelisk scene and the dialog scene after they're shot out the well at the end.) It made the movie feel very "shot on a set," which is bad when we're supposed to be in a South American exterior. Temple of Doom got away with it because the majority of the movie past the halfway point is underground anyway. The genuine Sri Lanka footage early on established that we were in an exotic place. In Indy4, we get a marketplace backlot and a CGI helicopter shot of a cemetery model with a CGI background of Peruvian mountains, but we're lacking that critical bit of actual location footage to mix in with the fakery and sell the illusion. Kinda makes you wish they didn't blow the majority of their location budget on US settings.

I think it did hurt the movie that nothing after Indy leaving New York was actually shot in the location the story takes him, save for the plates they shot for the aforementioned backdrops in Akator and the waterfall sequence. Isn't that when it's most needed? Aren't these movies partly about the globetrotting and being in faraway places? They of course shot the jungle chase in an actual jungle, but the fact that everyone thought it was CGI anyway tells you how successful that was in making us feel like we were somewhere other than a soundstage or computer.
One of the things I was looking forward to about this movie was how Indy would look in a modern film, and what they could do with modern tools.

And even after the film now, it's one of the things I appreciate about it. Take the ants scene...........never could've been done 20 years ago.

The realism of the digital effects to me is simply astounding. Just because you might be able to detect where they used CGI does not mean it's fake or unconvincing............look at the effects they used 20 years ago. Not exactly 100% realistic. So that argument always confuses me.
 

Darth Vile

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Udvarnoky said:
Well, the majority of the exterior of the two temples was practical as was the big grassy area where they're cornered by the Ugha. I daresay CGI had nothing to do with it. The screenplay did. And certainly, Spielberg shares blame for not taking an opportunity to do more than the lameness Koepp offered.

Well if you are talking about establishing the surroundings (you first mentioned ?allowing the size of Akator to register?), then I guess that is down to the visual effects they have at hand? as the partial set was just that i.e. partial. If we compare how, for example, TLC establishes the surroundings of the Grail temple, then you can see that the principle is much the same i.e. little dialogue and fleeting views of the architecture/façade (15/20 seconds). So, technology aside, KOTCS establishing shots of Akator are in keeping. Now I?m not saying I didn?t want more - I did. I wanted to see the big establishing shots we never got in the originals e.g. huge vistas and impossible shots of leviathan monuments? but then, I?m sure, it would be criticized for too much CGI (which Lucas/Spielberg must have been aware of).

Udvarnoky said:
Regarding the "CGI fest" part, I just want to say that my problems with the CGI use in the finale had to do with the back projection rather than with abundant effects. (After all, the light show in the Raiders climax set that precedent.) The shot I posted above was very well done, but I did not care for the CGI Amazon backdrops in general, which felt very fake to me. (The biggest culprits for me are the obelisk scene and the dialog scene after they're shot out the well at the end.) It made the movie feel very "shot on a set," which is bad when we're supposed to be in a South American exterior. Temple of Doom got away with it because the majority of the movie past the halfway point is underground anyway. The genuine Sri Lanka footage early on established that we were in an exotic place. In Indy4, we get a marketplace backlot and a CGI helicopter shot of a cemetery model with a CGI background of Peruvian mountains, but we're lacking that critical bit of actual location footage to mix in with the fakery and sell the illusion. Kinda makes you wish they didn't blow the majority of their location budget on US settings.

I think it did hurt the movie that nothing after Indy leaving New York was actually shot in the location the story takes him, save for the plates they shot for the aforementioned backdrops in Akator and the waterfall sequence. Isn't that when it's most needed? Aren't these movies partly about the globetrotting and being in faraway places? They of course shot the jungle chase in an actual jungle, but the fact that everyone thought it was CGI anyway tells you how successful that was in making us feel like we were somewhere other than a soundstage or computer.

If I was being pedantic, I'd make the point that the locations for Egypt, India, Austria, Germany and the middle East (in the first movies) were simply substitutes for the real thing. It's just a question of which illusion one prefers. ;)

Using blue/green screen is just part of modern movie making (even if they didn?t take it nearly as far as I would have liked). I don't think any movie would now try and reproduce, for example, Cairo on location (as Raiders did). "That time has passed". Being uber critical? much of Raiders location shooting could easily be on the back lot (sans some of the early jungle scenes). That's not to say I don't like it, but much of it is just generic desert. I actually like the notion that when you see Indy atop a monument (a la KOTCS), you can actually see huge rainforests and rivers in the background (CGI of course), where in the originals it would have been a close shot with just some blue sky or tree in the background.

Ultimately, I do agree with you that they should always look to use actual location footage to supplement the overall effect (which is what I think you are stating), but I also think it?s a consequence of making a modern action/adventure movie, that some scenes i.e. Akator, will seem a little fake in comparison (even when they look great).
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Cole said:
The realism of the digital effects to me is simply astounding. Just because you might be able to detect where they used CGI does not mean it's fake or unconvincing............look at the effects they used 20 years ago. Not exactly 100% realistic. So that argument always confuses me.

Good thing, then, that it's not the argument I'm using. When I singled out the Amazon backdrops, I did so specifically as effects that I found fake and unconvincing, not that I could simply "detect." Ants, saucers, and flashing lights aside, the really impressive effects in the movie are the subtle ones, like the completion of the temple exteriors.
 

indyrcks

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Well I think the finale is different to the previous three Indy films but the finale could have had more suspense,what do you think they should have done differently for the ending:confused: :)
 

JP Jones

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indyrcks said:
Well I think the finale is different to the previous three Indy films but the finale could have had more suspense,what do you think they should have done differently for the ending:confused: :)
They couldn't have done anything majorly different. They could have had Indy wrap his whip around mac., but everything else is brilliance just like the first 3.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Darth Vile said:
Well if you are talking about establishing the surroundings (you first mentioned ?allowing the size of Akator to register?), then I guess that is down to the visual effects they have at hand? as the partial set was just that i.e. partial.

Well of course it all comes down to partial sets to represent gigantic settings - that's how movies are made, after all. And what I'm saying is, partials is all they needed. There are several outside sets in this movie other than those - the marketplace, the jungle campsite. If anybody had given a reason for Indy and the heroes to say, be chased around the area that existed between the two main temples, that could have been accommodated. I don't understand why you would just conclude that it must have been a limitation of technology. They shot what was on the page.

Darth Vile said:
If we compare how, for example, TLC establishes the surroundings of the Grail temple, then you can see that the principle is much the same i.e. little dialogue and fleeting views of the architecture/façade (15/20 seconds).

And yet, those 20 seconds work pretty well, with the protoganists staring at the find with wonder and John Williams giving us some effective ambience. There's no time to "take in" Akator for the characters, because they spend the proper entrance to the valley being chased down steps. Cut to them walking about the next temple. It's set hopping - and to pre-empt your helpful reminder that all movies are technically actors on sets - it feels like set hopping.

I would also point out that the "establishment" of the Grail temple is appropriate for what the find is. Akator is supposed to be a city, not a structure.

Darth Vile said:
So, technology aside, KOTCS establishing shots of Akator are in keeping. Now I?m not saying I didn?t want more - I did. I wanted to see the big establishing shots we never got in the originals e.g. huge vistas and impossible shots of leviathan monuments? but then, I?m sure, it would be criticized for too much CGI (which Lucas/Spielberg must have been aware of).

In keeping with what? A vaguely reminiscent example from Last Crusade that you broke down into mathematical terms? I'm not sure what useful we've really learned here. I also think you're grasping with the "too much CGI" stuff, as what I'm proposing has no CGI relevance, and the movie is already criticized for too much CGI anyway, so either it wouldn't have mattered or Lucas/Spielberg weren't as perceptive of the issue as you think.

Darth Vile said:
If I was being pedantic, I'd make the point that the locations for Egypt, India, Austria, Germany and the middle East (in the first movies) were simply substitutes for the real thing. It's just a question of which illusion one prefers. ;)

That's an easy one - I prefer the substitutions that involve actors being filmed in actual faraway places. Also, we've had this conversation before. Everything in a movie is a substitution/illusion. Turns out that George McHale wasn't a real guy that they filmed, but was in fact an actor named Ray Winstone. Hope I didn't ruin your childhood! Let's not be silly.

Darth Vile said:
Using blue/green screen is just part of modern movie making (even if they didn?t take it nearly as far as I would have liked). I don't think any movie would now try and reproduce, for example, Cairo on location (as Raiders did). "That time has passed". Being uber critical? much of Raiders location shooting could easily be on the back lot (sans some of the early jungle scenes). That's not to say I don't like it, but much of it is just generic desert. I actually like the notion that when you see Indy atop a monument (a la KOTCS), you can actually see huge rainforests and rivers in the background (CGI of course), where in the originals it would have been a close shot with just some blue sky or tree in the background.

If a reminder that "Using blue/green screen is just part of modern movie making" is the way you choose to address my complaint, I am sad.

Darth Vile said:
Ultimately, I do agree with you that they should always look to use actual location footage to supplement the overall effect (which is what I think you are stating), but I also think it?s a consequence of making a modern action/adventure movie, that some scenes i.e. Akator, will seem a little fake in comparison (even when they look great).

The hell it is. No one is denying that CGI would always have been heavily involved in bringing Akator to life. Spielberg made a decision to shoot in Indiana Jones movie entirely in his home country.
 

AlivePoet

New member
I thought you capped off at 658 back in the day for reasons as demonstrated most lucidly above? :confused:

Only kidding, Udvarnoky--it's good to have you back. :hat:
 
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