TheRaider.net
 

Go Back   The Raven > Off Topic > Archaeology
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-18-2004, 10:37 AM   #26
Strider
IndyFan
 
Strider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 637
There are alot of former pagen holiday's, Holloween for instance. Christmas has pagen influence as well, the idea of a Christmas tree comes from a pagen ritual.
Strider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2004, 11:02 AM   #27
Tennessee R
IndyFan
 
Tennessee R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,008
-----------------------------------------------------
“Posted by Aaron H
The reason why Christmas is celebrated during Saturnalia is simply because early Christians (and even modern-day) had no clue as to when exactly Jesus was born. So they took a pagan* holiday and made it their own. This was because it was hard to make new converts break from their old traditions, so by creating a holiday on the same day (or time period) of the old holiday life was made a lot simpler.”
---------------------------------------------------
Christmas was not celebrated by the believers of the first century. The effort to ‘Christianize’ pagan holidays worked extremely well, and is still working today as we see of “Christmas” or “Saturnalia”.
Our Bible says, that He came and dwelt among men. The word ‘Dwelt’ is actually ‘tabernacled’, giving the indication that Jesus might have been born around the feast described in the Bible: “The Feast of Tabernacles”. The point is, Dec 25th was and still is the birthday of Mithra, it has nothing to do with Jesus,
Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus:
“For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” Jer 10:3
A man in a hot, red costume, obviously has nothing to do with Jesus. Notice, if you see a piture of Mithra slaying the bull, he has that same Phrigian(sp) style hat.
Everything quite obviously comes from sun-worship, or something of the sort, and in my opinion, and hopefully everyone else would agree:
They should not mix sun-worship with Christianity.

-------------------------------------------------------“Posted by Aaron H
As for Easter, it is NOT associated with pagan holidays, rather it is associated with Passover...a Jewish holiday that is older than any pagan holiday.”
-------------------------------------------------------

Astarte (Easter) was worshipped in Egypt, Ugarit, among the Hittites, and in Canaan. Easter was not considered a ‘Christian’ festival until the fourth century. The early Christians celebrated Passover:
“in the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’s Passover” The first month began on the first visible new moon after the vernal equinox.
Easter is not another name for Passover, and is usually far from the actual date of Passover.
Easter is:
Oxford English Dictionary: “The name of a goddess whose festival was celebrated at the vernal equinox...”
Tennessee R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2004, 11:12 AM   #28
Caitlin
IndyFan
 
Caitlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 107
(I was waiting to hear more for you TennR! From your website I knew you'd have all kinds interesting things to add!)On the Xmass tree topic...I have heard that the largest (yule)log was found, cut, brought back to the village and burned. They found the largest they could so that it would burn for many days, and each spark that came from the log was to represent the livestock that would be born that spring.
Caitlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2004, 02:07 PM   #29
Tennessee R
IndyFan
 
Tennessee R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,008
Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlin
(I was waiting to hear more for you TennR! From your website I knew you'd have all kinds interesting things to add!)On the Xmass tree topic...I have heard that the largest (yule)log was found, cut, brought back to the village and burned. They found the largest they could so that it would burn for many days, and each spark that came from the log was to represent the livestock that would be born that spring.

Thanks for the kind comment, Caitlin.
I have not heard of the info on the tree. Interesting.
Tennessee R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2004, 03:23 PM   #30
westford
IndyFan
 
westford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: uxbridge, uk
Posts: 718
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
The reason why Christmas is celebrated during Saturnalia is simply because early Christians (and even modern-day) had no clue as to when exactly Jesus was born.
They got the year wrong as well. I'm not 100% sure how they worked that out - was it something to do with mapping the position of stars?
westford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2004, 03:53 PM   #31
Finn
Moderator
 
Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,959
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
3. heathen: somebody who has no religion (disapproving)
Me. You loathe me now?
Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2004, 06:21 PM   #32
Strider
IndyFan
 
Strider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 637
Arrow

Strider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2004, 10:13 PM   #33
Aaron H
Moderator Emeritus
 
Aaron H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,572
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
3. heathen: somebody who has no religion (disapproving)
Me. You loathe me now?
What do you you mean now?

Quote:
Tennessee R.
Astarte (Easter) was worshipped in Egypt, Ugarit, among the Hittites, and in Canaan. Easter was not considered a ‘Christian’ festival until the fourth century. The early Christians celebrated Passover:
“in the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’s Passover” The first month began on the first visible new moon after the vernal equinox.
Easter is not another name for Passover, and is usually far from the actual date of Passover.
Easter is:
Oxford English Dictionary: “The name of a goddess whose festival was celebrated at the vernal equinox...”
Very right, Tenn; however, I would like to take you task on this a bit. You say that first century Christians didn't celebrate Easter. Again correct. However, they did celebrate Christ's Resurrection after they finished their Passover celebrations. While we wouldn't recognize it as "Easter" (and it wasn't called it then), they did celebrate the core idea behind modern Easter.
Aaron H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2004, 01:16 AM   #34
Finn
Moderator
 
Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,959
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
3. heathen: somebody who has no religion (disapproving)
Me. You loathe me now?

What do you you mean now?
Ouch. Okay, back to subject.
Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2004, 07:49 AM   #35
Tennessee R
IndyFan
 
Tennessee R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,008
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
Very right, Tenn; however, I would like to take you task on this a bit. You say that first century Christians didn't celebrate Easter. Again correct.

However, they did celebrate Christ's Resurrection after they finished their Passover celebrations. [/b]

Right.

Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
While we wouldn't recognize it as "Easter" (and it wasn't called it then), they did celebrate the core idea behind modern Easter. [/b]

Absolutely right! The celebration of Easter today, is thought by most Christians (Other than preachers that have been to seminary-sp?, They have been taught better) to be the time that Jesus was ressurected. As far as people in the occult, they know where it came from, and only those that are educated on the matter, would know that Easter is the name of a fertility goddess. (and I could quote the Oxford English Dictionary again, but it’s on the posts above.) Maybe the Christians of today ought to study the matter more detailed, because, to a Christian, it should be an insult for people to have taken a special day (Christ's ressurection), and blended paganism (goddess worship) with a Christian holiday.
Tennessee R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2004, 08:19 AM   #36
Finn
Moderator
 
Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,959
Quote:
Originally posted by westford
They got the year wrong as well. I'm not 100% sure how they worked that out - was it something to do with mapping the position of stars?
Or maybe it was very calculative politics?
Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2004, 10:14 PM   #37
Aaron H
Moderator Emeritus
 
Aaron H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,572
Quote:
Originally posted by Tennessee R
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
Very right, Tenn; however, I would like to take you task on this a bit. You say that first century Christians didn't celebrate Easter. Again correct.

However, they did celebrate Christ's Resurrection after they finished their Passover celebrations.


Right.

Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
While we wouldn't recognize it as "Easter" (and it wasn't called it then), they did celebrate the core idea behind modern Easter. [/b]

Absolutely right! The celebration of Easter today, is thought by most Christians (Other than preachers that have been to seminary-sp?, They have been taught better) to be the time that Jesus was ressurected. As far as people in the occult, they know where it came from, and only those that are educated on the matter, would know that Easter is the name of a fertility goddess. (and I could quote the Oxford English Dictionary again, but it’s on the posts above.) Maybe the Christians of today ought to study the matter more detailed, because, to a Christian, it should be an insult for people to have taken a special day (Christ's ressurection), and blended paganism (goddess worship) with a Christian holiday. [/b]
I can see the logic of the "blending", however. The modern form of Easter is determined by Passover and not a set date (which makes the celebration of the Ressurection right, according to the Jewish calendar). That said, the Church has been known to take a pagan holiday and make it their own in order to keep the Faithful from sin, that said I have no issue with Christians "borrowing" a pagan holiday and making use of it for themselves...as for the carry over traditions, well, at least a bit of it is religous.
Aaron H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2004, 11:33 PM   #38
Caitlin
IndyFan
 
Caitlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 107
Oh yes Tenn R, Ostara..(Easter/Eostar/Ostre/Eastre?)A "Pagan" holiday celebrated on the spring equinox... about 22 days
apart THIS year (is much closer some years ..again, given findings from the changes of star pattern the strong hand of
politics to move days around...(just look at when we celebrate most US holidays compared to their actual dates!)
(Oooo..we should talk about leap year + Ceasar sometime soon! Its one this year , ya know!)
And also just the distinct fact that earth/goddess worship is based around the rhythm of the earth + timings of the
universe, not man's perception and labeling of time.
The tradition of the easter egg...fertility...even rebirth!?? Easter is celebrated the 1st full moon after
spring equinox. 1 cycle of the moon, coincides with female cycles and egg release..

[Edited by Caitlin on 02-21-2004 at 11:39 pm]
Caitlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2004, 07:07 PM   #39
Strider
IndyFan
 
Strider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 637
Arrow

I've heard that Easter was accually the birth of Christ whereas Christmas was his death. Time zones have been confused so freacuently who knows, maybe Christ was really born in the summer.
Strider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2004, 10:28 PM   #40
Tennessee R
IndyFan
 
Tennessee R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,008
Good points Caitlin.
Yes, I had noticed that this year is a leap year.
Oh, and Finn will get on to you for not spelling it 'Caesar'

Interesting, Strider, never heard of that before.

Aaron H, Yes, the different organizations have slightly twisted pagan holidays, and made them 'christian', or vice versa. (Now, I know that there are rules on the bar about religion, so I will just say that I am one who believes in the Bible) But, for the people that believe in the Bible, it says:
"...Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane..." Ezekiel 22:26

and just
"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." Galatians 5:8
Tennessee R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 07:49 AM   #41
Caitlin
IndyFan
 
Caitlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlin
Easter is celebrated the 1st full moon after
spring equinox. 1 cycle of the moon,

oops..meant to say "AFTER the 1st full moon after the equinox" didn't want anyone to think I meant ON the 1st full moon.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tennessee R

Oh, and Finn will get on to you for not spelling it 'Caesar'



You mean we can't talk about how salad has influenced the way we count the passing of time? ; ) (Guess I'm not the worlds greatest speller either!)
Caitlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 09:08 AM   #42
Finn
Moderator
 
Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,959
Quote:
Originally posted by Tennessee R
Oh, and Finn will get on to you for not spelling it 'Caesar'
Thanks, mate. Saved me the effort.
Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 09:46 AM   #43
Aaron H
Moderator Emeritus
 
Aaron H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,572
Talk about religion isn't barred at the Raven, rather kept in check from becoming flame war (which has happened in the past):
5. Religion:
Religion is a touchy subject. Show respect for other members their religious beliefs, whatever yours are, and they will respect you.


Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Christians taking pagan holidays and making them their own.

As to the birth of Christ vs. the death/resurrection of Christ. No they are not reversed. "Easter" is celebrated with Passover because that is when the Bible records the events taking place. Christmas is never mentioned in the Bible, but was created to do two things:
1. Allow Christians celebrate the birth of their Lord.
2. Offer Christians an alternative to a pagan holiday.

There have been several theories about the actual birth day, but some place it mid-summer because of what is known about census' in that time of the Roman Empire.
Aaron H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 10:57 AM   #44
Finn
Moderator
 
Finn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,959
About this whole Easter thing... Even as a Christian holiday, its date varies every year, which highly suggests that it originally was a holiday linked to the span of year (e.g. it was celebrated when you saw the first flowers or something), and that speaks heavily for Pagan origin. Perhaps there was a day for celebrating the passover, but like every other holiday, it was moved to the corresponding Pagan date.

And the Bible has changed a great deal during the years, nowadays it's though nothing but they may renew the vocabulary a bit, but there is evidence that in earlier times, even the Holy Book and its saying were constantly rewritten in order to match the current situation better, so referring to the Bible as a source (and especially as a source that can't be argued) must be taken with at least slight reservation.
(Though no one actually knows how heavy those modifications to the good book have been, if any, so I'm not claiming that everything it states are way off marker.)

And lastly, we could get to a debate on the ethics of moving the holidays along the days when the Julian calendar outdated...
Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 01:15 PM   #45
westford
IndyFan
 
westford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: uxbridge, uk
Posts: 718
I might be talking rubbish here, but wasn't Christmas at one time a moveable feast like Easter? Eventually a set date was chosen so that workers could be given the day as a holiday each year. This would also have been when Boxing Day was introduced - the day when household staff could return home to visit their families with a box of gifts.
westford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 05:34 PM   #46
Tennessee R
IndyFan
 
Tennessee R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,008
Aaron H posted:
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Christians taking pagan holidays and making them their own.
__________________________________________________ ____



Well, I won't try to make you change your mind.



Finn posted:
Perhaps there was a day for celebrating the passover, but like every other holiday, it was moved to the corresponding Pagan date.
__________________________________________________ ____



That's right, Finn, most of the holidays were moved to a pagan holiday with a similar date.



Finn posted:
And lastly, we could get to a debate on the ethics of moving the holidays along the days when the Julian calendar outdated.
__________________________________________________ ____


Calandar changes have not effected the order of the days of the week, but ten numbers were removed from October 1582 A.D.
So, before, when it was Thu the 4, Fri the 5, it became Thu the 4, Fri the 15. I believe that is what you are talking about.



Caitlin posted:
...wasn’t Christmas at one time a moveable feast like Easter?
__________________________________________________ ____

Well, no-one really knows when Christ was born (If that’s what you’re referring to), and the Bible was not clear when he was born. But, I believe I mentioned in a previous thread, the Bible does say something like:
...And he came, and dwelt among men...
Or something like that. The word dwelt in Hebrew means “tabernacled”
So, it could possibly be a ‘hidden’ reference to the ‘Feast of Tabernacles’.
Tennessee R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 06:03 PM   #47
Kate
IndyFan
 
Kate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: The Wild, Wild West (though there are places I'd rather be and a certain place I left my heart)
Posts: 492
Quote:
Originally posted by westford
..... but wasn't Christmas at one time a moveable feast like Easter?

OOOH it's going to bother me until I remember: there is a book called "A Moveable Feast," but I can't remember who it's by. Anyone know?
Kate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 06:17 PM   #48
Caitlin
IndyFan
 
Caitlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally posted by Tennessee R
__________________________________________________ ____

Caitlin posted:
...wasn’t Christmas at one time a moveable feast like Easter?
[/b]
huh? I didn't post that. I believe that was Westford.

Interesting stuff BTW, Westford! I'm so caught up in my "consipary theory" mind-set , that I didn't even think of holidays being moved in modern politics for the GOOD of the people..A day off!! Isn't it too bad that we have to schedule and scramble to be able to relax...back then they were like "Hey look, it's almost a full moon..gonna party tomorrow night! whoo hooo!!"

Quote:
Originally posted by Tennessee R
__________________________________________________ ____


Calandar changes have not effected the order of the days of the week, but ten numbers were removed from October 1582 A.D.
So, before, when it was Thu the 4, Fri the 5, it became Thu the 4, Fri the 15. I believe that is what you are talking about.[/b]
10 #s removed? Interesting. Do tell more!



Caitlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 06:31 PM   #49
Tennessee R
IndyFan
 
Tennessee R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,008
Sorry, Caitlin, it was Westford. I knew it was a lady, though.

Well, I believe it was when the Gregorian changed to the Julian (Or maybe I've got it backwards and it was vice versa), the only major changes was that 10# were removed from October, but as I said before, it did not in the least, change the order of the days. It still was Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun Mon.... And so on.
Tennessee R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 06:33 PM   #50
Caitlin
IndyFan
 
Caitlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally posted by Kate

OOOH it's going to bother me until I remember: there is a book called "A Moveable Feast," but I can't remember who it's by. Anyone know? [/b]

Haven't read it...just looked it up. Hemmingway. But from the book reviews I don't see how it relates.....(Looks pretty damn good tho!) Is there another book of a similar title..or is this the one you are thinking of?
Caitlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:56 PM.