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Old 02-23-2004, 06:40 PM   #51
Kate
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Yep, that's it. Thanks! I love Hemingway.
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Old 02-23-2004, 06:52 PM   #52
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I completely stole this from some student's website at Drexel Unv.? in PA. TennR, ya made me want to know more! Think he's right on , or what? I'm definately going to look into this some more onmy own. Neat!

"The formula for figuring out the date of Easter (The "Golden Rule") relative to the sun and the moon was set in the 4th Century AD (at the Council of Nicea). The religious calendar called for a certain number of masses to be held between Christmas and Easter. By the year 1500 approximately, the number of Sundays was no longer the same, because the date of the equinox had shifted by over a week from where it had been when the rules were set. The equinox was taking place on March12 instead of March 21 as it had during the early days of the church.

This was brought to the attention of Pope Gregory XIII by a priest/astronomer named Christopher Clavius (note the name... another famous astronomer named Christopher). By 1582 the accumulated error was estimated to have amounted to 10 days, thus the real length of the solar year was not EXACTLY 365.25 days as had been believed, but closer to 365.2425. So the way to fix this was to add another correction factor by DROPPING 3 leap years every 400 years. To bring the religious calendar back into synch with the solar events, Pope Gregory XIII decreed that the day following Oct. 4, 1582, should be called Oct. 15, thus dropping 10 days"



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Old 02-23-2004, 06:59 PM   #53
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Not to stir up any trouble, but this sort of manipulation by the Early Church is part of the controversy surrounding Gibsons film, if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:00 PM   #54
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are you going to see that movie?
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:10 PM   #55
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Most definately. Let's chat about it in the other thread.

Back on topic, Tenn are my musings correct about how the Vatican II is responsible for the deviation in the days?
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:11 PM   #56
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I haven't seen the movie, but I believe you are correct, Apalehorse.
I can't prove it, Caitlin, but, yes, I believe the fellow who wrote that had his facts straight.
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Old 02-23-2004, 07:19 PM   #57
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Yes, A Pale Horse, it had to do with the Catholic Church. Pope Gregory is where we get the Gregorian calendar, and we have the Julian calandar, and so on.
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Old 02-23-2004, 11:48 PM   #58
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Let's settle the issue of "Easter" (Death/Burial/Resurrection of Christ). It's time is determined according to the Jewish calendar, thus we have the dates of the "Easter" events down pat, it is when it gets translated over to our calendar that it gets confusing.
The controversy surrounding "The Passion of the Christ" does not have anything to do with dates or times, primarily because that issue is firmly settled in both the religious and secular debate circles. Rather it has to deal with if the movie portrays Jews in a negative light...but I won't get into that here.

Christmas is the major holiday that has the largest question mark on it. I believe it was stated that Christmas is also on Saturnalia. The early Church fathers chose to celebrate Christmas on Saturnalia because they wanted to offer an alternative to the festival, thus preventing believers from falling away. (Does that make any sense?) The logic is there, but the reasoning is flawed. However, birth records weren't kept during the first century, so the Church fathers, even though they were fairly close to the actual time of Christ, wouldn't have a clue as to when exactly his real birthday was.
As I stated before, it is believed that Jesus was in fact born in mid-summer. This is because of the fact that the shepherds were watching their flocks by night (if it was winter it would be awfully cold...even in Israel!), and Rome conducted census' when weather would allow for quick and easy travel for the census takers and those being census-ed (okay so it’s a made up word).


Okay, one last thing to further clarify my earlier statement. Christian festivals on pagan holidays were done for several reasons. Some more apparent than others:
1. To prevent the Believers from sinning by participating in a pagan ritual or practice.
2. To show to the pagans that Christians can have fun too. (I'm serious here)
3. To keep Believers excited about their faith.
4. To attract new Believers to the Faith.
That is my logic to my statement "Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Christians taking pagan holidays and making them their own."

Wow this is a long post; I will stop for now and carry on later.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:01 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron H
Let's settle the issue of "Easter" (Death/Burial/Resurrection of Christ). It's time is determined according to the Jewish calendar, thus we have the dates of the "Easter" events down pat, it is when it gets translated over to our calendar that it gets confusing.
The controversy surrounding "The Passion of the Christ" does not have anything to do with dates or times, primarily because that issue is firmly settled in both the religious and secular debate circles. Rather it has to deal with if the movie portrays Jews in a negative light...but I won't get into that here.

I will carry the Vatican II arguement into the other thread as well. But I will allude to it here as I feel it is relevant, until someone shows me more.

I think that between you, TR, Finn and my humble musings, we could come to some consensus on dates. The Vatican II (1960's) made significant changes from the Catholic Dogma originated with the Missale Romanum around 1570 ad, which was protested by Luther, yada yada yada...and that stemmed the current Catholic/Protestant branches we loosley ascribe to today (agreed?)

Obviously our holidays were around before the 1960's, but I am not sure about which dates and calandars we are discussing or questioning.

So any changes to that
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:04 AM   #60
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Agreed.
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Old 02-24-2004, 03:21 PM   #61
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____________________________________________
Aaron H posted: Okay, one last thing to further clarify my earlier statement. Christian festivals on pagan holidays were done for several reasons. Some more apparent than others:

1. To prevent the Believers from sinning by participating in a pagan ritual or practice.
____________________________________________

When they celebrate Jesus' birthday and ressurection on a pagan holiday when they could have picked any other date, in a way, Believers ARE participating in a pagan ritual.
____________________________________________
Aaron H posted: 2. To show to the pagans that Christians can have fun too. (I'm serious here)
____________________________________________

The pagans would have known (even if another date was chosen to have a party) that they were having fun.
____________________________________________
Aaron H posted: 3. To keep Believers excited about their faith.
____________________________________________

As a Believer, it doesn’t exite me to know that a (for some) sacred day is being profaned by paganism of old.
____________________________________________
Aaron H posted: 4. To attract new Believers to the Faith.
____________________________________________

Again, I think that a new Believer, seeing that the Christian festivals are on a pagan holiday would likely turn him away from Christian beliefs, instead of for it.

In conclusion, I would like to say, the people who determined the dates had hundreds of days (365).
There were surely, after all the pagan days in the year, at least fifty, maybe a hundred or more days for them to chose from that was not celebrated by pagans. And, instead, they chose two well known pagan days.

Today we have a
Paganized Passover,
And a
“Christianized” Christmas.
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Old 02-24-2004, 03:52 PM   #62
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Wow. We really have a believer here who uses his brain instead of just repeating those phrases people taught him as facts when he was a kid?

TennR, I very much agree with you!
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Old 02-24-2004, 07:33 PM   #63
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Thank you, Finn
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Old 02-24-2004, 08:13 PM   #64
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Yeah, I agree. You seem a very intelligent and well-read young man. Now you just have to get some corduroys and you will be complete. Just kiddin'. Anyway, I also hate when young people just spout the phrases and beliefs their parents taught them, without bothering to think of things on their own.
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Old 02-25-2004, 12:47 AM   #65
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Tenn, you do have some great counter points, however, you are missing a key part of my arguement. Humans are creatures of habit, so it was (and is) natural for Christians to "take over" a pagan holiday and apply the changes they felt were needed.
Does that make any sense? (my mind is a bit fried after a long night's work)
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Old 02-26-2004, 07:40 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlin
Quote:
Originally posted by Kate

OOOH it's going to bother me until I remember: there is a book called "A Moveable Feast," but I can't remember who it's by. Anyone know?


Haven't read it...just looked it up. Hemmingway. But from the book reviews I don't see how it relates.....(Looks pretty damn good tho!) Is there another book of a similar title..or is this the one you are thinking of? [/b]

This is a rather interesting topic, the whole thing about pagan/Judeo-Christian feast days, but I'm not going to comment on that right now.

With regards to Hemingway's A Moveable Feast, it was a very good book of short episodes about his time in Paris with other members of the Lost Generation, including Gertrude Stein, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Ford Madox Ford. Highlights include the slightly eccentric Miss Stein and the passage in which Papa and F. Scott compare endowments. Somewhat skewed representations of the other writers, but certainly very interesting, and I'd place it very close to his other great books, A Farewell to Arms, The Sun Also Rises, and For Whom the Bell Tolls.
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Old 02-26-2004, 11:55 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Attila the Professor
This is a rather interesting topic, the whole thing about pagan/Judeo-Christian feast days, but I'm not going to comment on that right now.

You haven't commented on much lately. Your absense is noted.
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