Williams' score

In "The Jungle Chase" 2:07-2:16 is amazing. I believe it's the part where Mutt is in the vines with the monkeys. I am really digging the soundtrack though. I got chills at 8:23 of "The Finale" as did most people.

agentsands77 said:

Thanks so much. It's very helpful.

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No problem! I've been reading some of the comments on their message board on the score, and while the music-whizzes over there just make me feel inadequate, the piece by piece breakdown and explanation of each track is amazing. I listened to the whole CD while reading along with their breakdowns of where the pieces of source music was from, the timing etc, and really came away with a new appreciation of the soundtrack, and am enjoying it a lot more.

First time I have heard the "finale" track. Was surprised by the altered Indy motif at the end of the track. Kinda a fun, goofy interpretation of the theme.

Does this symbolize Indy and Mutt connecting as father and son? Or worse off...is this going to be the Mutt Williams/Jones theme of the next movie if it gets made?? If so....

Rococo said:

No problem! I've been reading some of the comments on their message board on the score, and while the music-whizzes over there just make me feel inadequate, the piece by piece breakdown and explanation of each track is amazing. I listened to the whole CD while reading along with their breakdowns of where the pieces of source music was from, the timing etc, and really came away with a new appreciation of the soundtrack, and am enjoying it a lot more.

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What that cue list demonstrates to me is how poorly put-together the CD is. I think the score is actually stronger than the CD would have us believe, both because of how the tracks are ordered and also because of which portions were left out. I still can't believe that the majority of the Hangar 51 music didn't make it onto the CD.

michael said:

In "The Jungle Chase" 2:07-2:16 is amazing. I believe it's the part where Mutt is in the vines with the monkeys. I am really digging the soundtrack though. I got chills at 8:23 of "The Finale" as did most people.

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Oh I love that part,with the solo Clarinet in its Altissimo register.Sounds just like little peaceful monkeys jumping around.

agentsands77 said:

What that cue list demonstrates to me is how poorly put-together the CD is. I think the score is actually stronger than the CD would have us believe, both because of how the tracks are ordered and also because of which portions were left out. I still can't believe that the majority of the Hangar 51 music didn't make it onto the CD.

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I agree. After listening to the CD and being more familiar with the music, then seeing the film again, there are some huge gaps of great score that were left out. I wonder if this was partly due to the CD coming out prior to the movie, and they didn't want to spoil the film plot wise with the music/song titles? If so, it's a pretty weak result.

It seems to be more and more common these days for a complete score or soundtrack to be released alongside a "highlights" disc, at the same time. I'm sure their are better examples, but the recent release of both versions (the complete, and the highlights) of the Sweeney Todd soundtrack released the same day. Of course, in that example the complete disc only included three more songs, where in this case there is a whole other half of a film of music that needs to be released! Had they given fans the option, I'm sure a CD of the complete score would have performed as well, if not better than the highlights CD we got left with.

I personally think that the score KOTCS score (both within the movie and on CD) is one of Williams? best. Sure, there is some filler (there always is), but I categorically believe that ?Mutt?s Theme?, ?Irina?s Theme?, ?The Crystal Skull?,? The Jungle Chase? and ?Ants!? are as good as anything Williams has done before (specifically for an Indy soundtrack).

We have to remember that any movie such as Star Wars and Indiana Jones have numerous great actions cues that don?t (and shouldn?t IMHO) make it to the final album. Whilst I too am a completist, in that I own every iteration of the Star Wars and Indy scores, I strongly believe that the best releases are always the original compact and concise releases - as they tend to capture and convey the themes and tone of the movie. For example, the extended versions of the Star Wars OT scores are interesting, but actually (IMHO) work to water down the overall quality of the scores.

I?ve watched KOTCS 3 times now and I can?t think of a specific piece of scoring that I thought should have made it into the soundtrack release (although I?m obviously open to having my mind changed). Indeed, if anything, I think Williams could have cut some material out of the soundtrack. It?s actually quite an extended score already and I think if it had been cut to 11/12 tracks, it could have been regarded as one of his best ever scores. But still, the quality is still there to be found if you sift through the circa 19 tracks?

Rococo said:

No problem! I've been reading some of the comments on their message board on the score, and while the music-whizzes over there just make me feel inadequate, the piece by piece breakdown and explanation of each track is amazing. I listened to the whole CD while reading along with their breakdowns of where the pieces of source music was from, the timing etc, and really came away with a new appreciation of the soundtrack, and am enjoying it a lot more.

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Rococo,

Very good point well made.

Lets start with the assumption that music and movies can be called ?art?. You can have an impulsive/instant gut reaction to a piece of art e.g. too big, too brash, don?t like the colours, don?t like the form, don?t like the frame etc. (which is a valid reaction). This reaction is applied, more often than not, to music and movies too. However, when you start to intellectually challenge/critique something, you start to look deeper? you begin to look beyond the picture frame and the simple colours and start to look at the palette, technique and philosophy.

Not wanting to patronize in any way (because I?m really not intending to)? but bravo to you for stating that your initial reaction was muted, but you took the time to look deeper. One may find, after digging deeper, that one?s opinion/reaction has not changed. But in most cases, some form of appreciation can be found. Many people don?t look deeper and ultimately they can?t articulate why they think something is ?blah? (which is why I sometimes get frustrated on these boards).

Like the OP says, nothing jumps out with the soundtrack. The film, like the soundtrack, is going through the motions and lacks atmosphere. The only things that jump out are the terribly cheesy things, such as fridges, aliens, flying saucers and rubber trees.

My only problem with the score is that the soundtrack CD doesn't have some of the better music cues. Most of the tracks are atmospheric where the skull theme is repeated. There's some good music from the beginning when the soviets enter Hangar 51 and when Indy first appears, the warehouse scene, the rocket sled and in the jungle chase (there's like 4 minutes of a 10 minute scene on the disc) that are not present on the soundtrack. It would have been nice to include "Hound Dog", "Shake, Rattle and Roll" and "Wake up Little Suzie" too. I wish they'd have released the soundtrack after the film opened so they can put out the right tracks and not avoid "spoilers". Let hope they put out a better one for this and the other Indy films. I really want a complete TOD score.

Darth Vile said:

Not wanting to patronize in any way (because I?m really not intending to)? but bravo to you for stating that your initial reaction was muted, but you took the time to look deeper. One may find, after digging deeper, that one?s opinion/reaction has not changed. But in most cases, some form of appreciation can be found. Many people don?t look deeper and ultimately they can?t articulate why they think something is ?blah? (which is why I sometimes get frustrated on these boards).

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Darth- thanks for the comments. I've always enjoyed movie soundtracks, but in retrospect I think I have considered them somewhat tertiary to the film- done correctly, it should be much more influential than simply incidental music. What I've learned from going back and really exploring this soundtrack is that the music (again, when done correctly) is really another character in telling the story.

I'm musically inclined, but not musically trained (if that makes any sense!). So for example, when I first heard that new part of the finale (8:21) I really sat up and noticed, and loved it as a new "flourish" on the old standard. Once I started reading more about it, I found that in actuality it was the combining of an old and new theme, and musically representing the two coming together- that was exiting to me! I then went back and re-listened to the source music for that combination, at the end of the The Jungle Chase, and then back to a lesser extent to The Adventures of Mutt- from that one 10 second spot of music in finale, I've found so much more depth to a total of (at least!) three tracks of music. And I've had the same experience on almost every track.

In this way, I have found this soundtrack rich with characterization, storytelling and and depth- which I am still appreciating and learning more about every time I listen to it.

Can someone listen to the Finale and listen REALLY close at every part and every instrument and tell me everytime the Orchestra transitions themes that it gives you the chills?I think the Finales fabulous.
My favorite part is the little Russian theme at about 4:00 mins.I love the big brass sound with accents.Its so great,they have an amazing flute player and theres an Accordian too,I find that extremely beautiful together.The bass and Cello violins start it off then high voiced strings come in,its kind of quiet listen for that.That whole part isnt in the Finale is it ?I didnt hear it in the theater today.I personally think this score is as good as any of the others,there of course are some dull parts but i hear that in every Indy score,I dont feel its any diffrent from the other maybe even better.I say good work John Williams.Honestly I think it took some getting used to but so did the movie for me.

I agree, the finale is amazing. It's like the finale of "Anakin's Theme" from Phantom Menace, which ends on the ominous last notes of the "Imperial March", ending with finality but also opening the door to something else: "That's not all, folks!".

Williams did not just phone this one in, though on the first listen I too thought it was much less original than the other three scores but it has grown on me.

Part of it could be a difference in style: In "The Desert Chase" the music feels very present and directly reflects what is happening on the screen, basically telling the characters what happens next, however, in "The Jungle Chase" the music didn't seem nearly as commanding or important/prominent in the scene- I don't even remember music from watching the scene (granted I've still only seen KotCS once).

The movie itself was also a little choppy (at least that was my primary reaction), so I would imagine that it is hard to have a good flow to the score to begin with.

In the end, after having listened to the soundtrack several times, I come away with a good impression: Great new themes, Great references to cues and themes in the trilogy (as well as subtle references to other things evidently): Great score. One thing that I did notice though is that some of the beats and patterns seem to resemble those in Star Wars, the PT especially. (I'm listening to "Grave Robbers" right now) While this doesn't especially bug me, it was something I noticed.

I'm sure I have more to add to my thoughts on the score but it'll have to wait until I'm not so tired.

ReggieSnake said:

I agree, the finale is amazing. It's like the finale of "Anakin's Theme" from Phantom Menace, which ends on the ominous last notes of the "Imperial March", ending with finality but also opening the door to something else: "That's not all, folks!".

Williams did not just phone this one in, though on the first listen I too thought it was much less original than the other three scores but it has grown on me.

Part of it could be a difference in style: In "The Desert Chase" the music feels very present and directly reflects what is happening on the screen, basically telling the characters what happens next, however, in "The Jungle Chase" the music didn't seem nearly as commanding or important/prominent in the scene- I don't even remember music from watching the scene (granted I've still only seen KotCS once).

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IMHO ‘The Jungle Chase’ is actually a better piece of music than the ‘The Desert Chase’, as it captures the multifaceted elements happening within the movie whilst keeping the pace of the scene (as you’d expect) ‘The Desert Chase’ is quite linear in approach (because that’s the way it’s played in the movie as you touched upon). I think at a volume level, ‘The Desert Chase’ from Raiders is more prominent in the mix whereas its counterpart from KOTCS is fighting with all the other 5.1 surround. That may explain partially why, as a piece of music, it doesn’t appear as strong in the cinema….

I saw it a second time yesterday.... Still not digging it. I'll only get the soundtrack if they release RotLA and ToD in the future and I need it to complete my collection.

Darth Vile said:

IMHO ?The Jungle Chase? is actually a better piece of music than the ?The Desert Chase?, as it captures the multifaceted elements happening within the movie whilst keeping the pace of the scene (as you?d expect) ?The Desert Chase? is quite linear in approach (because that?s the way it?s played in the movie as you touched upon). I think at a volume level, ?The Desert Chase? from Raiders is more prominent in the mix whereas its counterpart from KOTCS is fighting with all the other 5.1 surround. That may explain partially why, as a piece of music, it doesn?t appear as strong in the cinema?.

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Listening only to the soundtrack itself, jungle chase isnt that great. For the "major" action sequence of the movie, I was extremely disappointed. Comparing this track to "Desert Chase" from Raiders is ridiculous. Desert Chase is far superior to Jungle Chase in every aspect. But to each their own I guess. If you love Crystal Skull that much, you'll love every aspect to it, but to compare it to a masterpiece of a track such as Desert Chase is really pushing it IMO. Its like you'll say anything to levitate Crystal's Skull status above the other movies in any facet. Now dont get me wrong, I didnt hate Indy 4, but man....that just pushed the envelope for me when you said that.

If you truely think in all honesty that Crystal Skull's "Jungle Chase" track is better than Raiders "Desert Chase"....well then....really cant comment on your taste then. Again, to each their own.

Salacious said:

Listening only to the soundtrack itself, jungle chase isnt that great. For the "major" action sequence of the movie, I was extremely disappointed. Comparing this track to "Desert Chase" from Raiders is ridiculous. Desert Chase is far superior to Jungle Chase in every aspect. But to each their own I guess. If you love Crystal Skull that much, you'll love every aspect to it, but to compare it to a masterpiece of a track such as Desert Chase is really pushing it IMO. Its like you'll say anything to levitate Crystal's Skull status above the other movies in any facet. Now dont get me wrong, I didnt hate Indy 4, but man....that just pushed the envelope for me when you said that.

If you truely think in all honesty that Crystal Skull's "Jungle Chase" track is better than Raiders "Desert Chase"....well then....really cant comment on your taste then. Again, to each their own.

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I think you really need to try and articulate your thoughts a little more. I've given reason enough, but you've come back with zip. I'm not trying to convince you and I guess you are not trying to convince me... but please at least try and raise the bar when it comes to discussion/argument if you want to counter something. I could go into the musicality of it if you want e.g. notation, time signature etc. etc. Can you/will you debate at that level?

Darth Vile said:

I think you really need to try and articulate your thoughts a little more. I've given reason enough, but you've come back with zip. I'm not trying to convince you and I guess you are not trying to convince me... but please at least try and raise the bar when it comes to discussion/argument if you want to counter something. I could go into the musicality of it if you want e.g. notation, time signature etc. etc. Can you/will you debate at that level?

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Musicality? Do you play any instruments,because id love to talk about the musicality with someone on this thread instead if just,"the music wasn't used right in this scene here and there blah blah".Id want to get into musicality with someone.

Sarah,

I do... It's my passion in life

Darth Vile said:

Sarah,

I do... It's my passion in life

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I'm so happy theres someone here that shares the same passion as me!
wow im so excited! So yah i wouldnt know where to start on the soundtrack or even where to talk about.What do you play?