Why do you hate Willie Scott?

Darth Vile

New member
I'm not really sure she is worthy of all the hate. Willie is certainly not as likeable as Marion, or even as interesting as Elsa... but she is what she is, and like Marion, she is designed to be reminiscent of specific 1930?s/40?s leading ladies (which she is). Marion is the loveable girl next door tomboy, Elsa the scheming femme fatale and Willie the prissy, spoilt and selfish middle/upper class socialite.
 
Darth Vile said:
I'm not really sure she is worthy of all the hate. Willie is certainly not as likeable as Marion, or even as interesting as Elsa... but she is what she is, and like Marion, she is designed to be reminiscent of specific 1930?s/40?s leading ladies (which she is). Marion is the loveable girl next door tomboy, Elsa the scheming femme fatale and Willie the prissy, spoilt and selfish middle/upper class socialite.

She is what she is...and not what she's not.

What specific 30's 40's leading ladies are you referring to?

Marion has been characterized as a Myrna Loy type, and Kate, (not Willie) has been characterized as possessing Lucille Ball attributes, but doesn't come off nearly as likeable. Not to nitpick but our good friend Wiki reads Ball had small roles, (not a leading lady);

In 1929, Ball landed work as a model and later began her performing career on Broadway using the stage name "Diane Belmont". She appeared in many small movie roles in the 1930s as a contract player for RKO Radio Pictures. Ball was labeled as the "Queen of the Bs" (referring to her many roles in B-films).

What leading ladies are you talking about?
 

Robyn

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
She is what she is...and not what she's not.

What specific 30's 40's leading ladies are you referring to?

Marion has been characterized as a Myrna Loy type, and Kate, (not Willie) has been characterized as possessing Lucille Ball attributes, but doesn't come off nearly as likeable. Not to nitpick but our good friend Wiki reads Ball had small roles, (not a leading lady);

In 1929, Ball landed work as a model and later began her performing career on Broadway using the stage name "Diane Belmont". She appeared in many small movie roles in the 1930s as a contract player for RKO Radio Pictures. Ball was labeled as the "Queen of the Bs" (referring to her many roles in B-films).

What leading ladies are you talking about?

Now that you mention it, I can't think of a leading lady in specific that Willie reminds me off.. Marion definitely has some Myrna Loy though

btw glad you're back Rocket!
 
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Darth Vile

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
She is what she is...and not what she's not.

What specific 30's 40's leading ladies are you referring to?

Marion has been characterized as a Myrna Loy type, and Kate, (not Willie) has been characterized as possessing Lucille Ball attributes, but doesn't come off nearly as likeable. Not to nitpick but our good friend Wiki reads Ball had small roles, (not a leading lady);

In 1929, Ball landed work as a model and later began her performing career on Broadway using the stage name "Diane Belmont". She appeared in many small movie roles in the 1930s as a contract player for RKO Radio Pictures. Ball was labeled as the "Queen of the Bs" (referring to her many roles in B-films).

What leading ladies are you talking about?

Too many to mention in detail... As outlined in another post, like Marion, Willie is not a carbon copy of any single leading lady/character from the 30's/40's, but a composite of many with similar traits. From Katherine Hepburn (The Philadelphia Story & in part The African Queen), Bette Davis (Jezebel), Rita Hayworth (Gilda), Madeleine Carroll (The 39 Steps)? even a bit of Irene Dunne (A Guy Named Joe). All the direct and in-direct influences are there to be seen (IMHO).
 
DocWhiskey said:
Damn, Rocket Surgeon, you freakin' hate Willie with a passion don't you? :dead:

I guess it's fair to say...she has no arc. I'm not looking for Shakespeare but after all that she hasn't softened a bit. What a shrew!

DocWhiskey said:
I see your points. She's definetly a *****. No doubt about that. But she's supposed to be. She's an exaggeration (or sometimes not unfortunetly) of a Hollywood prima donna.

I think another actress could have brought better chops to the character. It's funny, but so many things can be conveyed through simple expressions. She brought zero depth to the character, one note on a piano being played over and over again, akin to Chinese water torture. No emotional depth, imagine if she had become desensitized by the end of the movie and instead of screaming at Mola Ram she took a swing at him, (unsuccessful though).

I always ask myself what would I have done if I were in that situation, and when I can't resolve the motivations because I can't relate, it makes me curious about the character. She might as well be Lucy from Peanuts...you know what? With how much I wanted Charlie Brown to kick her in the head instead of the football she would take away at least she had the Psychology booth going for her. I drew a couple of panels with Charlie Brown finally kicking her...maybe I should change them to Indy/Willie...hmmm.
I guess what bothers me is that a cartoon character has more depth than Willie Scott!

DocWhiskey said:
She was the same whiny little ***** that she was in the first scene. I think that's why so many people hate her.

I think you've hit it on the head!

DocWhiskey said:
I'm trying to decide who's a better person: Willie or Elsa?

Hmmm, well at best you could trust Willie to be Willie. By the time you got to know Elsa, it would have been to late. They both would see you as expendable. Better person? Although Elsa gradually showed her softer side, it's a draw.
 

Robyn

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I think another actress could have brought better chops to the character.

I didn't want any other actress, I wanted Marion back again! :(

Rocket Surgeon said:
I always ask myself what would I have done if I were in that situation, and when I can't resolve the motivations because I can't relate, it makes me curious about the character. She might as well be Lucy from Peanuts...you know what? With how much I wanted Charlie Brown to kick her in the head instead of the football she would take away at least she had the Psychology booth going for her. I drew a couple of panels with Charlie Brown finally kicking her...maybe I should change them to Indy/Willie...hmmm.
I guess what bothers me is that a cartoon character has more depth than Willie Scott!

That football thing always pissed me off too!!

Rocket Surgeon said:
Hmmm, well at best you could trust Willie to be Willie. By the time you got to know Elsa, it would have been to late. They both would see you as expendable. Better person? Although Elsa gradually showed her softer side, it's a draw.

Oh I'd much rather deal with Willie than Elsa!! I HATE Elsa so much! lol The first thing I think of when I look at her is vampire!

Darth Vile said:
Too many to mention in detail... As outlined in another post, like Marion, Willie is not a carbon copy of any single leading lady/character from the 30's/40's, but a composite of many with similar traits. From Katherine Hepburn (The Philadelphia Story & in part The African Queen), Bette Davis (Jezebel), Rita Hayworth (Gilda), Madeleine Carroll (The 39 Steps)… even a bit of Irene Dunne (A Guy Named Joe). All the direct and in-direct influences are there to be seen (IMHO).

hmm.. I have trouble thinking of actresses who have similar traits to Williie... maybe a little Katherine Hepburn from her character Susan in "bringing up baby" she was very agitating in that movie.. but I think what Rocket is trying to say is that a good character should have many different sides, like Marion's character has so much depth, and Willie is so one dimensional, she does become somewhat tougher towards the end, but her character never really gets any deeper. I can laugh at Willie sometimes, that's the best I can say for her is that she gets a laugh out of me once and awhile..

BTW Does anyone else think Willie was a tramp? I think she's a definite tramp, she only knew Indy for like a day and a half and she's ready to jump into bed with him.. I guess my question is do you think she's just a tramp in general or is this just a one time tramp episode for her? Elsa is the queen of the sluts but how about Willie in that department?
 
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DocWhiskey

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
She might as well be Lucy from Peanuts...you know what? With how much I wanted Charlie Brown to kick her in the head instead of the football she would take away at least she had the Psychology booth going for her. I drew a couple of panels with Charlie Brown finally kicking her...maybe I should change them to Indy/Willie...hmmm.

That's dedication right there.

ronicle said:
I HATE Elsa so much! lol The first thing I think of when I look at her is vampire!

And I find this hilarious.

Well, she is a succubus.
 

Dr Bones

New member
Willie's character is exactly what she was intended to be and Kate Capshaw played it well. Annoying and not Marion. A whiney spoilt attention seeking selfish egocentric theatrical type who annoys Indy and Shorty but unfortrunatley she annoys many of the audience.

There is a place for Willie as people/characters are different and that's great. But like some people, she is a character I and others are not too fond of.

I found her opening scene...although it was different...to much and self indulgent...her character is a singer..we get it Steve..who are you pandering to, your audience or the jobbing actress you're seeing?

Indy hit on her because she is attractive (probably been on a quest too long) but like the man said she wasn't Marion.

Willie was overbearing, whereas Elsa was pretty dull.

Essentially Marion is the leading lady for Indy.
 

Darth Vile

New member
ronicle said:
hmm.. I have trouble thinking of actresses who have similar traits to Williie... maybe a little Katherine Hepburn from her character Susan in "bringing up baby" she was very agitating in that movie.. but I think what Rocket is trying to say is that a good character should have many different sides, like Marion's character has so much depth, and Willie is so one dimensional, she does become somewhat tougher towards the end, but her character never really gets any deeper. I can laugh at Willie sometimes, that's the best I can say for her is that she gets a laugh out of me once and awhile..

It's not really a question of "actresses who have similar traits to Willie", but other cinema characters who they are trying to emulate with Willie.

Besides, I don't think Marion has that much depth to be honest. Sure she has a history with Indiana Jones, and it's interesting to ponder how she ended up in Nepal with Abner (although same could be said for Willie Scott in Shanghai)... but ultimately Marion is just as much as a cliché/pastiche and as 2-dimensional as Willie (and Elsa). It's just that Marion is clearly a more likeable character (both in the way it's written and in Karen Allen’s performance). Indeed, one could argue that Willie has much more of an emotional journey in TOD than Marion does in Raiders... but it still doesn't make Willie the kind of girl you'd want to marry (or the kind of girl you'd want to be if you are female).
 
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Robyn

New member
Darth Vile said:
Besides, I don't think Marion has that much depth to be honest. Sure she has a history with Indiana Jones, but ultimately Marion is just as much as a cliché/pastiche and as 2-dimensional as Willie (and Elsa).


I really really disagree with you on this one! It's not just Marion's history with Indy that gives her depth, it's that her personality has so many different dimensions.. as opposed to Willie=screaming and Elsa=Nazi slut. I don't see anything cliche or 2-dimensional about Marion's character
 
Darth Vile said:
Besides, I don't think Marion has that much depth to be honest... but ultimately Marion is just as much as a cliché/pastiche and as 2-dimensional as Willie (and Elsa).

Why start being honest now?:p

You finally came out with an opinion that wasn't qualified by, "one could argue that" or redefining the conversation with, "It's not really a question of". My all time favorite being the absolute waste of text, "it is what it is". Love that one...says absolutely nothing.

But on to Marions two dimensionality, (if that's even a word). You should watch the movie again. Karen Allen's performance was exceptional, her expressions spoke volumes...her inflection was relatable. She was given an enormous amount of screen time without dialogue where she had to emote...she basically improvised an entire scene from Raiders! Marion was fleshed out by a serious actress. Marion in Crystal Skull was closer to Willie in the respect that her being there was entirely pasted on and wasn't necessary to the film at all, (as filmed).

Darth Vile said:
Indeed, one could argue that Willie has much more of an emotional journey in TOD than Marion does in Raiders...

Indeed one could argue ANYTHING, as you continually illustrate...yet it's not a question of a more emotional journey, (since the character is TOTALY HYSTRIONIC), the question is why do you HATE Willie?
 
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Darth Vile

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Why start being honest now?:p

You finally came out with an opinion that wasn't qualified by, "one could argue that" or redefining the conversation with, "It's not really a question of". My all time favorite being the absolute waste of text, "it is what it is". Love that one...says absolutely nothing.

What’s a complete waste of text is arguing a point about two rather secondary female characters… But you do seem overtly fastidious about what you have or haven’t an issue with. :p

Rocket Surgeon said:
But on to Marions two dimensionality, (if that's even a word). You should watch the movie again. Karen Allen's performance was exceptional, her expressions spoke volumes...her inflection was relatable.

LOL. It’s two words actually. But 10 out of 10 on the sh*tometer score mate. “Her inflection was relatable”. What sort of guff is that? Perhaps Indy’s hat was “Woven from the threads of an angels gown” too?

Rocket Surgeon said:
Indeed one could argue ANYTHING, as you continually illustrate...yet it's not a question of a more emotional journey, (since the character is TOTALY HYSTRIONIC), the question is why do you HATE Willie?


How is it going in the pot calling the kettle black business? I’m not sure I ever stated I hated the character of Willie Scott... but anyway. There is a difference between a character that’s designed to be mildly irritating, and a character that’s designed to be overtly likeable (both in the way it’s written and the way it’s performed). And whilst I accept the proposition that Marion may “have the better lines”, eulogising over Karen Allen’s performance just seems like a hackneyed defence of a character that, similar to Willie/Elsa, is basically a cliché (and doesn't even rival that of Margot Kidders in Superman). I’m surprised that a man of your acclaim “don’t get it”. ;)
 

Darth Vile

New member
ronicle said:
I really really disagree with you on this one! It's not just Marion's history with Indy that gives her depth, it's that her personality has so many different dimensions.. as opposed to Willie=screaming and Elsa=Nazi slut. I don't see anything cliche or 2-dimensional about Marion's character

She really isn't. We've already cited examples of those wonderful performances/characters from the likes of Katharine Hepburn and Bette Davis et al... Those can still be easily recalled 60/70 years later by anyone mildly interested in popular cinema? but I?m not convinced that in another 50 years time people will be eulogizing over Karen Allen. All that will really be remembered about Raiders is Harrison Fords performance and his iconic character. Like it or not, Marion is just an accessory (like Willie and Elsa).
 

Robyn

New member
Darth Vile said:
She really isn't. We've already cited examples of those wonderful performances/characters from the likes of Katharine Hepburn and Bette Davis et al... Those can still be easily recalled 60/70 years later by anyone mildly interested in popular cinema… but I’m not convinced that in another 50 years time people will be eulogizing over Karen Allen. All that will really be remembered about Raiders is Harrison Fords performance and his iconic character. Like it or not, Marion is just an accessory (like Willie and Elsa).

Well maybe it's just you that doesn't find Karen Allen's "Marion Ravenwood" memorable, as a matter of fact it's been said that since 1981 (which was awhile ago) Marion's character has been quite memorable for many people and even a role model for girls and women. When my Mom saw Raiders at the theater when it first came out, the characters of Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood stuck with her as equally as memorable.. Just like when I think of the thin man I don't just think of William Powell.. I never think of just one person's performance when I think of a movie. Marion was never "just an accessory", just like Sean Connery was not "just an accessory"... See this is the difference, when I think of Raiders I think of Indiana jones and Marion Ravenwood, when I think of Temple I think of Indiana Jones, a screaming blonde, and a little Chinese side kick named Shorty, when I think of Last Crusade I think of Indianda Jones, Indy's dad, and a blonde vampire.

To me and a lot of other people, Marion Ravenwood was an excellent and memorable character, rather than just a caricature of actresses's from the 30s and 40s..

Willie was memorable to me too, but all I remember is her blonde hair and her screaming..

and I don't remember wonderful characters of the likes of Katherine Heburn and Bette Davis, I always found them cold and unlikable

I for one will always recall Marion's character, I guess it's all in how you connect to a character

and btw I don't hate Willie, her character just didn't have much depth.. I wanted Marion back for all the Indy's anyway though ;) But I do HATE Elsa!!! Vampire!!!
 
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Darth Vile said:
What’s a complete waste of text is arguing a point about two rather secondary female characters… But you do seem overtly fastidious about what you have or haven’t an issue with. :p

Sorry if you're getting bent, (don't know you, can't tell), I'm just busting balls a little. I thought those "adorable" :)rolleyes: ) smilies were supposed to help that! The phrase "to be honest", among others like "it is what it is" are peeves of mine that I always considered a tool for people hedging for time to consider an answer...which, considering the venue puzzles me more. Sorry if you caught a bit of the lash.

Darth Vile said:
LOL. It’s two words actually. But 10 out of 10 on the sh*tometer score mate. “Her inflection was relatable”. What sort of guff is that? Perhaps Indy’s hat was “Woven from the threads of an angels gown” too?

Ha ha! I think you're referring to the whip, but that's for another time. The inflection of her voice carried a common gravitas that people could relate to...as in have probably used themselves, (Capshaw on the otherhand delivered those lines with the precision of Lucy Van Pelt).

Darth Vile said:
How is it going in the pot calling the kettle black business?

Two words: RECESSION PROOF

Darth Vile said:
I’m not sure I ever stated I hated the character of Willie Scott... but anyway...eulogising over Karen Allen’s performance just seems like a hackneyed defence of a character that, similar to Willie/Elsa, is basically a cliché (and doesn't even rival that of Margot Kidders in Superman). I’m surprised that a man of your acclaim “don’t get it”. ;)


Acclaim? I think you have me confused with someone else my very young friend, (in addition to a great many things). However I am not surprised to see you dig in like a tick and lash out irrationally.

You need to take a step back, take a deep breath and look at the title of the thread. Instead of being "not sure I ever stated I hated the character of Willie Scott" and being indignant and evasive; "but anyway", try to keep track of your own posts. Hint: If you are ALWAYS honest it's easier than keeping track of your rants, raves or flat out lies.

Marion is an accessory! You're a mean, spiteful littleman! Well, she's a smokin hot accessory and to paraphrase DeNiro in Meet the Parents; you have to earn her affection. Willie, a dog, is very easy to break, Indy just had to feed her...good thing Indy didn't hit it, he might have contracted some Singapore Dick-Slug. Cats don't sell out the way dogs do.


Margot Kidder...you're funny. You can stop singing, or scatting or rapping or talking over John Williams music...I CAN READ YOUR MIND, and you seriously need to see a priest or preferred professional! You need to dust in the corners!:p ;) :rolleyes: (y) :dead:

Try not to get too riled up...this is all for fun.

ronicle said:
when I think of Last Crusade I think of Indianda Jones, Indy's dad, and a blonde vampire.

Is that an Irish crack?!? Some of my friends are vampires! Sheesh!
 
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Robyn

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Marion is an accessory! You're a mean, spiteful littleman! Well, she's a smokin hot accessory and to paraphrase DeNiro in Meet the Parents; you have to earn her affection. Willie, a dog, is very easy to break, Indy just had to feed her...good thing Indy didn't hit it, he might have contracted some Singapore Dick-Slug. Cats don't sell out the way dogs do.


Rocket i'm laughing myself silly!!! LOL


Rocket Surgeon said:
Is that an Irish crack?!? Some of my friends are vampires! Sheesh!

There's just something about Elsa's smile!:eek:
 
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