Listen for yourself..Obama's Socialized medicine in his words

Kevin · Aug 6, 2009

Le Saboteur said:
Zero support is a stretch. If they really wanted to, the Democrats could ram it through the house, and probably the Senate. It'll take some work.

Not really a stretch. The surtax idea has proven to be a nonstarter in the Senate so far, probably because most Senators realize that rich people are smart people (or just hire smart lawyers) and will figure out ways around it.

So, when the surtax fails to fund the program, lawmakers will have no choice but to raise taxes on the middle class. Raising taxes is always unpopular, but doing so in the middle of (or just after, depending on who you believe) a recession is akin to political suicide.

Le Saboteur · Aug 6, 2009

Moedred said:
Speaking of panties in a twist, here's Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi accusing her opponents of "carrying swastikas."

I've always liked George Orwell's essay on fascism. you can read it here.

George Orwell said:
It will be seen that, as used, the word ?Fascism? is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

WillKill4Food · Aug 6, 2009

monkey said:
President Obama wants to end senseless overseas wars, and bring Health Care to all of the American People. ..........wow, what a horrible concept!

Oh, really? Barack Obama called for 20,000 new troops to Afghanistan and authorized the deployment of 17,000 troops to Afghanistan on February 17, 2009 and an extra 4,000 later in the year to supplement the training of Afghan security forces. The extra 20,000 troops will increase the US presence from 32,000 to 52,000, bringing the total international troop presence to roughly 60,000.
Read more: http://www.mahalo.com/afghanistan-troop-surge#cite_note-1

But while I agree that no one should have to do without health care, you have failed to acknowledge the issues of paying for universal health care and the treatment delays found in the single-payer systems of other countries.

tnswman · Aug 7, 2009

Insomniac said:
For the first video in my viewpoint CLEVER EDITING!
I believe Obama is better than the dictator ship Bush and DICK tried to pull of our system Dick tried to crossover branches over our system to make him control multiple branches while bush had the other and hell dick shot a guy.
That and would most likely would have reoccur with McCain and Palin the takeover and the shooting!

BTW OBAMA is not a Nazi if anything he is mor of a communist and the communist system could have worked with a few adjustments of their system are made!

Personally Isocracy is the way to go!

Do you realize, you made the MOST un-American statement that you could EVER make!!

Way to go!!

WillKill4Food said:
Nazi is short for Nationalsozialismus: National Socialism.

Thank you for posting something that I forgot to.

If ANY of you have ANY doubt that Obama and his radical Statist White House have anything OTHER than NAZI-like interests, then you need to takea LONG HARD LOOK at the point that they are ASKING Neighbors to report each other to the White House! Just like Stalin's secret police.

This is NOT America...None of you that support this Tax raising and life ENDING Naziesque healthcare plan..you simply are too ignorant to UNDERSTAND the small details that will go into this plan that will DESTROY everything we know!

Here is your first clue, the Doctors are AGAINST this plan at the highest number. What does that say for the care that will be given?

You seem to simply think that it's a good idea. However, NONE of you can argue the points of the program because you OBVIOUSLY have not READ THE BILL!

So, Educate yourselves and COME BACK WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND!!

Until then, We will be fighting against the most Un-American President ever to be GIVEN the office.

THANK GOD, he will NEVER have a chance in HELL at re-election!! The American people are PI$$ED!! They will NOT vote for him ever again!!

Thank you for being a Socialist FOOL Mr. President!!

bennihana123 said:
The Founding Fathers do not equal today's America. They wrote the Constitution with the thought in mind that it could be changed to fit the times and improved upon.

I'm just saying that the ideals of the Founding Fathers may not apply (is that the right word?) to today.

You need to better understand both the Constitution and the Founding Fathers.

The Constitution is formed in a way that it does NOT answer ever human need because the FF wanted people to NOT look to the Government to be the end all answer. It is the most brilliant paper ever written.

It was given rules of AMENDMENT that will allow changes to be made. However, that process is NEVER easy because the Constitution already answers most needs.

They WERE thinking of the future, that is why the FF did NOT word the Constitution as life, Liberty and the right to own property as God given freedoms...at that time slaves were PROPERTY..so to empower property owners with a God Given right would lock in the constitutional rights of the slave owner.

try reading the Constitution deeper than your current understanding allows you to comprehend.

HovitosKing said:
Seriously. Get a life.

Obviously, you are unable to debate....WAY to be a grown up...Thank god there are people who have the interest of IDIOTS like you in mind. Since your thought process won't allow you to process a true interaction.

Finn · Aug 7, 2009

Mod note

The upkeep understands that this is a subject that's making emotions boil but The Raven is not the place to vent the extra steam. If you folks can't keep vitriol and insults out of your posts, this thread will end up locked quicker than you can say "tax raise".

Also, someone losing his or her cool in this thread from this point on becomes a subject for a week's involuntary leave from the forums. If you can't discuss this civilly, then there's no place for you here.

Now continue, but play nice.

tnswman · Aug 7, 2009

Finn said:
The upkeep understands that this is a subject that's making emotions boil but The Raven is not the place to vent the extra steam. If you folks can't keep vitriol and insults out of your posts, this thread will end up locked quicker than you can say "tax raise".

Also, someone losing his or her cool in this thread from this point on becomes a subject for a week's involuntary leave from the forums. If you can't discuss this civilly, then there's no place for you here.

Now continue, but play nice.

Does that include venting anger toward politicians? That is a right to be angry correct?

HovitosKing · Aug 7, 2009

Short Round said:
Sorry but the US actually believes in the free market and giving people FREEDOM.

The nice thing about the US is that the people (those CURRENTLY living within her domain) decide what is best for her. Not the founding fathers, not the religion du jour, not any delusional interest group. She's a living, breathing nation with a living, breathing constitution at her heart. As times change and people evolve, so does the nature of our government change to support her people. People like you, who fear change and despise the search for a better way through the exchange of ideas, are the shackles that our forefathers designed the constitution to break free of. This nation has always been one great big experiment; it's never been a stodgy set of unchanging rules meant to appease one small, insignificant segment of the population. That's what our forefathers intended. A country that adapts and changes to meet the needs of her people.

tnswman said:
Obviously, you are unable to debate....WAY to be a grown up...Thank god there are people who have the interest of IDIOTS like you in mind. Since your thought process won't allow you to process a true interaction.

This is no debate. This is pathetic. The fact that I restrain myself proves I'm an idiot, unable to debate? Fascinating logic, O wise sage.

Why fools are endowed by nature with voices so much louder than sensible people possess is a mystery. It is a fact emphasized throughout history.

-Hertzler

Moedred · Aug 7, 2009

Merged double posts. Use the edit button folks, that's how you take your turn on the soapbox. And like I stated earlier, letters to congresspersons are a better outlet right now. They have paid office drones who are required to read and respond. Carry on, and don't make us report you to flag@whitehouse.gov...

Finn · Aug 7, 2009

tnswman said:
Does that include venting anger toward politicians? That is a right to be angry correct?

Foul language is never appreciated, but at the minimum you should refrain from calling names to fellow forum members.

Still though, I do believe that there is a way to discuss this subject without any extra caveman effect at all. Which is desirable.

Short Round · Aug 7, 2009

HovitosKing said:
The nice thing about the US is that the people (those CURRENTLY living within her domain) decide what is best for her. Not the founding fathers, not the religion du jour, not any delusional interest group. She's a living, breathing nation with a living, breathing constitution at her heart. As times change and people evolve, so does the nature of our government change to support her people. People like you, who fear change and despise the search for a better way through the exchange of ideas, are the shackles that our forefathers designed the constitution to break free of. This nation has always been one great big experiment; it's never been a stodgy set of unchanging rules meant to appease one small, insignificant segment of the population. That's what our forefathers intended. A country that adapts and changes to meet the needs of her people.

-Hertzler[/I]

You obviously have no idea what America stands for. Have we ever been a socialist nation? No, we haven't. Have we thrived since the beginning of our founding? Yes, we have. Now, if YOU believe socialism is good, that is different than the COUNTRY believing it's good. Our forefathers intended this to be a FREE nation. That was number one. They spoke out against socialist views over and over again. They said they feared the day when these views would enter our government. This was their goal, to keep America a free nation, with limited government. They broke away from big government in order to do this. They fought, risking their lives, to create a free nation in which people could choose their own way to live and absolutely HATED the idea of taking money from the people who earned it to give it to the ones who DIDN'T.

America has become a great nation because of our freedom and opportunity and to change it to a socialist nation will result in complete failure.

Grizzlor · Aug 7, 2009

What I find so hilarious is that the people screaming the most really have no dog in this fight. They don't work in the healthcare industry, and have affordable care, or have never had a health crisis that nearly bankrupts them. It's really this mean streak that comes out. Many of these protesters would actually benefit from expanded care. The people who will get taxed for this are very rich, and honestly it won't dent their country club membership. Also, why must ever segment of the economy be open freely to giant profits at the expense of the people?

WillKill4Food · Aug 7, 2009

Moedred said:
And like I stated earlier, letters to congresspersons are a better outlet right now.

Not always. Someone I know wrote a letter to a local Republican congressman berating him for unfairly pigeon-holing liberal candidates. The congressman's office responded with a form thank-you letter thanking him for an "endorsement."

It's a sad but true fact that many politicians (not all, and maybe not most, but many) no longer see themselves as servants of the people, but rather people to be served.

monkey · Aug 8, 2009

WillKill4Food said:
Oh, really? Barack Obama called for 20,000 new troops to Afghanistan and authorized the deployment of 17,000 troops to Afghanistan on February 17, 2009 and an extra 4,000 later in the year to supplement the training of Afghan security forces. The extra 20,000 troops will increase the US presence from 32,000 to 52,000, bringing the total international troop presence to roughly 60,000.

I understand your point here Willkill. But this is a simple case of "do the math".

I see that President Obama will increase US troop strength in Afghanistan from 32,000 to 52,000. OK, that's a 20,000 increase. But at the same time President Obama is ENDING the Iraq war, which will bring 140,000 troops home.

That's 120,000 soldiers who will be able to come home. And that will be one senseless war Ended.

One thing at a time.

Willkill, you're too intelligent a person to be disingenuous. So please don't be.

Now, on to the fellow here who seems to rant a lot about Founding Fathers, and FREEDOM, etc.

Two things: First of all, don't confuse FREEDOM, with FREE TRADE, and the FREE MARKET. Free Trade, and the Free Market are warm fuzzy words that have results that are anything but warm and fuzzy. They are the buzzwords of the multinational corporations who couldn't care a damn about the American worker, or the Ameican family, or the future of America or its people.

You're waving the flag for the wrong people. The multinationals owe allegiance to NO COUNTRY. They don't give a damn about AMERICA. So stop championing Free Trade, and the Free Market.

Which brings me to my second thing: If you'd do any research at all, you'd see that the so called "Founding Fathers" were all about tarriffs and restrictions on imports, etc. in order to protect the American Economy.

Do the research.

When you champion Free Trade, as some kind of "Red White and Blue" AMERICAN thing.......well, it just doesn't make sense.

When those Corporate people talk about "leveling the playing field", and other similar statements with regard to Free Trade, what they are talking about is bringing the standards of living of America and the West even with the living standard of countries like India, China, Mexico, etc.

The only way to raise their standard of living is to lower yours.

Is that good for Americans? Or other Western nations?

So let me see if I got this right? I care about the American worker and his/her family, and care about their health care, and standard of living. I don't want to see their jobs exported overseas.

I am UN-AMERICAN because of that.

But on the other hand, some folks here champion Free Trade, and the Free Market, et. al. ...which means allowing the multinational corporations to export American jobs overseas, ruin the American economy, and lower the standard of living of Americans.

They are SUPER AMERICAN PATRIOTS!!!

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Short Round · Aug 8, 2009

monkey said:
I understand your point here Willkill. But this is a simple case of "do the math".

I see that President Obama will increase US troop strength in Afghanistan from 32,000 to 52,000. OK, that's a 20,000 increase. But at the same time President Obama is ENDING the Iraq war, which will bring 140,000 troops home.

That's 120,000 soldiers who will be able to come home. And that will be one senseless war Ended.

One thing at a time.

Willkill, you're too intelligent a person to be disingenuous. So please don't be.

Now, on to the fellow here who seems to rant a lot about Founding Fathers, and FREEDOM, etc.

Two things: First of all, don't confuse FREEDOM, with FREE TRADE, and the FREE MARKET. Free Trade, and the Free Market are warm fuzzy words that have results that are anything but warm and fuzzy. They are the buzzwords of the multinational corporations who couldn't care a damn about the American worker, or the Ameican family, or the future of America or its people.

You're waving the flag for the wrong people. The multinationals owe allegiance to NO COUNTRY. They don't give a damn about AMERICA. So stop championing Free Trade, and the Free Market.

Which brings me to my second thing: If you'd do any research at all, you'd see that the so called "Founding Fathers" were all about tarriffs and restrictions on imports, etc. in order to protect the American Economy.

Do the research.

When you champion Free Trade, as some kind of "Red White and Blue" AMERICAN thing.......well, it just doesn't make sense.

When those Corporate people talk about "leveling the playing field", and other similar statements with regard to Free Trade, what they are talking about is bringing the standards of living of America and the West even with the living standard of countries like India, China, Mexico, etc.

The only way to raise their standard of living is to lower yours.

Is that good for Americans? Or other Western nations?

So let me see if I got this right? I care about the American worker and his/her family, and care about their health care, and standard of living. I don't want to see their jobs exported overseas.

I am UN-AMERICAN because of that.

But on the other hand, some folks here champion Free Trade, and the Free Market, et. al. ...which means allowing the multinational corporations to export American jobs overseas, ruin the American economy, and lower the standard of living of Americans.

They are SUPER AMERICAN PATRIOTS!!!

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me.

The Free Market isn't freedom??? You can talk all you want about corruption but at the end of the day it comes down to basic freedom. The overarching question is "Do we have freedom"? You say these corporations don't care about America and the little guy, but that DOESN'T MATTER. They have the freedom NOT to care. See that's the beauty of America. Everyone can choose their own lifestyle. The government isn't controlling people. Sure, we hope these people have morals and to do the right thing, but it shouldn't and never has been forced on them. The Founding Fathers spoke a lot about this.

You are UnAmerican because you support socialism and taking away from people who earned money and giving it to those who didn't. Once again, have you not read anything by our founders? If you have, how can you support socialism and call yourself a patriot?

WillKill4Food · Aug 8, 2009

monkey said:
Willkill, you're too intelligent a person to be disingenuous. So please don't be.

I was, of course, critiquing your blanket statement: Obama is ending one "senseless" war, and continuing another that is not as unpopular.

HovitosKing · Aug 8, 2009

Short Round said:
You obviously have no idea what America stands for. Have we ever been a socialist nation? No, we haven't. Have we thrived since the beginning of our founding? Yes, we have. Now, if YOU believe socialism is good, that is different than the COUNTRY believing it's good. Our forefathers intended this to be a FREE nation. That was number one. They spoke out against socialist views over and over again. They said they feared the day when these views would enter our government. This was their goal, to keep America a free nation, with limited government. They broke away from big government in order to do this. They fought, risking their lives, to create a free nation in which people could choose their own way to live and absolutely HATED the idea of taking money from the people who earned it to give it to the ones who DIDN'T.

America has become a great nation because of our freedom and opportunity and to change it to a socialist nation will result in complete failure.

This country belongs to its current citizens, or rather the majority of them, not its founders. i.e., we define it, not the other way around. It stands for whatever we need it to stand for. The establishment and sustainably of a state can be two very different birds requiring very different strategies and policies. That was my only point. Now go back to your Fox and Friends.

I would only add that, despite the labels your kind likes to throw around, every election since 2006 has gone horribly bad for you "true American patriots." I guess we "communists" and "socialists" really do speak for the country now. Question: what does one do when he realizes his country doesn't agree with his ideology? Must feel pretty lonely out there. I'll pray for you.

HovitosKing · Aug 8, 2009

Grizzlor said:
What I find so hilarious is that the people screaming the most really have no dog in this fight. They don't work in the healthcare industry, and have affordable care, or have never had a health crisis that nearly bankrupts them. It's really this mean streak that comes out. Many of these protesters would actually benefit from expanded care. The people who will get taxed for this are very rich, and honestly it won't dent their country club membership. Also, why must ever segment of the economy be open freely to giant profits at the expense of the people?

Well it makes sense, really. These people are as ignorant and laughable as the candidates they endorse.

Short Round · Aug 8, 2009

HovitosKing said:
This country belongs to its current citizens, or rather the majority of them, not its founders. i.e., we define it, not the other way around. It stands for whatever we need it to stand for. The establishment and sustainably of a state can be two very different birds requiring very different strategies and policies. That was my only point. Now go back to your Fox and Friends.

I would only add that, despite the labels your kind likes to throw around, every election since 2006 has gone horribly bad for you "true American patriots." I guess we "communists" and "socialists" really do speak for the country now. Question: what does one do when he realizes his country doesn't agree with his ideology? Must feel pretty lonely out there. I'll pray for you.

The country should be what it was founded to be. It's worked for almost 250 years now as America has provided more freedom and opportunity than any other nation in the world. Besides, socialism is a failure and doesn't provide the freedom capitalism does. Now go back to Countdown with Keith Olbermann and reread the communist manifesto.

2006-2009 isn't very long. This kind of thing happens ALL the time. People soon will be sick of Obama and start voting in conservatives. It's just the way it goes. Also, people will realize the failure of socialism. So, don't worry about me, real Americans all agree with my ideology because they hate socialism, just as the Founding Fathers did. The Founding Fathers risked their lives to create this great nation that had the most freedom in the world, and Americans aren't going to let that be in vain. Sooner or later you will realize how stupid you were to think this country would sit back and let socialism take over. In the meantime, I'll pray for you.

monkey · Aug 9, 2009

Short Round said:
The Free Market isn't freedom??? You can talk all you want about corruption but at the end of the day it comes down to basic freedom. The overarching question is "Do we have freedom"? You say these corporations don't care about America and the little guy, but that DOESN'T MATTER. They have the freedom NOT to care. See that's the beauty of America. Everyone can choose their own lifestyle. The government isn't controlling people. Sure, we hope these people have morals and to do the right thing, but it shouldn't and never has been forced on them. The Founding Fathers spoke a lot about this.

You are UnAmerican because you support socialism and taking away from people who earned money and giving it to those who didn't. Once again, have you not read anything by our founders? If you have, how can you support socialism and call yourself a patriot?

So you support the Multinational Corporations' RIGHT to export American Jobs overseas? In some kind of ...twisted....vision...version.....of FREEDOM that you have (or got from FOX NEWS)?

So it is AMERICAN!! And PATRIOTIC!! to destroy American Society by closing down factories and putting Americans out of work?

I know that Haji over there in India, or Chin Min Win over there in China just loves people like YOU. Because you are the flag wavers for their cause. They want to upgrade their standard of living at the expense of the American Worker, and therefore, American society.

They LOVE YOU!! You are doing a great job for them!! Haji says "keep up the great work!" Chin Min Win says "Thank you for your support!".

As long as your shrill voice is lifted in the glorification of "Pure Capitalism", or "Free Trade", or whatever corporate catch word you want to use........And as long as you deride any attempt to actually help and benefit the American Worker, you support Haji, and Chin Min Win.

They thank you.

I don't know where you got your strange ideas about the "Founding Fathers", but if you would do a little research, you would see clearly that the "Founding Fathers" were NOT for the economic policies that you seem to champion with such zeal.

They were ALL about Protectionism, Tariffs, and the like. They were all about protecting the American economy, and therefore AMERICANS!

Someone else here suggested recently, and I suggested some time ago, that you turn off FOX NEWS for just a bit, and actually try to learn some actual facts about the world around you.

I suggest it again here: Please try to open your mind and learn the true facts about what you are talking about.

Also, please don't call me Un-American again. You've done so several times now, and it is insulting.

Short Round · Aug 9, 2009

monkey said:
So you support the Multinational Corporations' RIGHT to export American Jobs overseas? In some kind of ...twisted....vision...version.....of FREEDOM that you have (or got from FOX NEWS)?

So it is AMERICAN!! And PATRIOTIC!! to destroy American Society by closing down factories and putting Americans out of work?

I know that Haji over there in India, or Chin Min Win over there in China just loves people like YOU. Because you are the flag wavers for their cause. They want to upgrade their standard of living at the expense of the American Worker, and therefore, American society.

They LOVE YOU!! You are doing a great job for them!! Haji says "keep up the great work!" Chin Min Win says "Thank you for your support!".

As long as your shrill voice is lifted in the glorification of "Pure Capitalism", or "Free Trade", or whatever corporate catch word you want to use........And as long as you deride any attempt to actually help and benefit the American Worker, you support Haji, and Chin Min Win.

They thank you.

I don't know where you got your strange ideas about the "Founding Fathers", but if you would do a little research, you would see clearly that the "Founding Fathers" were NOT for the economic policies that you seem to champion with such zeal.

They were ALL about Protectionism, Tariffs, and the like. They were all about protecting the American economy, and therefore AMERICANS!

Someone else here suggested recently, and I suggested some time ago, that you turn off FOX NEWS for just a bit, and actually try to learn some actual facts about the world around you.

I suggest it again here: Please try to open your mind and learn the true facts about what you are talking about.

Also, please don't call me Un-American again. You've done so several times now, and it is insulting.

All I was saying is that corporations have rights too. I don't want them to step all over the American Worker. If they are doing illegal activities, then of course they should be closed and sent to prison. However, if they are not doing anything illegal, then whatever they do is alright because it is LEGAL.

The Founding Fathers were for my economic policies.
?A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government?? Thomas Jefferson

What does that sound like to you????

?To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.? ? Thomas Jefferson

"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.? ? James Madison

So actually they WERE for the my policies and the free market. They HATED socialism.

Now, I ask that you actually try to understand those quotes. They show how the fathers desired a free market and hated big government.

If you are for socialism, you are UnAmerican.

Listen for yourself..Obama's Socialized medicine in his words

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