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Old 02-24-2010, 09:56 PM   #201
dr.jones1986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crack that whip
That's quite possible, but at least for the time being, there's a critical difference. Sebastian Shaw's appearance as an older Anakin (the way he would presumably have looked had he lived to that time without ever having become Darth Vader) wasn't merely dropped, but outright replaced by a new, different portrayal that specifically depicts a (visually) different new version of his spirit form.

With Old Indy, the segments have merely been dropped, with no new "alternate" information presented anywhere that specifically refutes them (well, except for some of the chronology and other details of his stories, but not the basic idea of an extremely aged, one-eyed Indy still alive and well in the 1990s, having an extended family and retelling the events of his youth to anyone who'll listen). This is despite the considerable revisions and additions to the rest of the TV show, as well as the addition to the canon of a whole new movie that takes place before the bookends but after everything else. Now, it may well be that George Lucas no longer intends for the George Hall segments to officially represent the twilight years of Indy's life, but so far he hasn't actually issued any sort of edict or anything to that effect, and none of the new material produced since the show ended its original ABC run gives any indication of what goes on in Indy's life anytime after the late 1950s. I think unless and until something actually does, the Old Indy segments should be considered part of the canon (even if only provisionally, with the understanding that a new release or publication can alter their canon status at any time - but then, that's pretty much the way it is with everything else having to do with GL's creations...).

Well the Mutt character was never mentioned in the old Indy cutscenes but a daughter was. We know he only had one kid with Marion and being as Marion is almost 50 by the time they get married in KotKS, they aren't having anymore. The fact they are cut seems pretty safe to say that Lucas didnt like it. I doubt he will ever make an offical statment on it, being as it wouldn't make him anymore money...I kid Georgie Boy
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Old 02-25-2010, 03:49 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Exulted Unicron
I've always gone by the idea that sure, we see Old Indy with his journal, but its A journal, rather than the original. I find it extremely likely that with all Indy's been through since he got the journal from his father in 1908, he'd keep more than one copy. What with the huge amount of unexpected "baths" and all that.
Yes,we already discussed this idea on page 13 of this thread and I think it's a brilliant idea.
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Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
We know he only had one kid with Marion and being as Marion is almost 50 by the time they get married in KotKS, they aren't having anymore.
I did offer a "menopausal baby" theory in my Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood's Daughter thread.

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Old 02-25-2010, 10:54 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by AnnieJones
Yes,we already discussed this idea on page 13 of this thread and I think it's a brilliant idea. I did offer a "menopausal baby" theory in my Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood's Daughter thread.

The Journal has the same cover, I guess he just gets lucky and is able to always find a brown journal with an Ibis on the cover.

You did put alot of work into that theory but Im not buying it. Old Indy was cut out of the DVD realeases of the show which conincided with the release of KotCS. It seems pretty clear Lucas cut that cause it would conflict with the new movie he was getting ready to release.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:09 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
The Journal has the same cover, I guess he just gets lucky and is able to always find a brown journal with an Ibis on the cover.

You did put alot of work into that theory but Im not buying it. Old Indy was cut out of the DVD realeases of the show which conincided with the release of KotCS. It seems pretty clear Lucas cut that cause it would conflict with the new movie he was getting ready to release.

I don't think there's necessarily any conflict as Indy was a bit of a womanizer and could well have had a daughter by another partner in 1952. As with Mutt, Indy may not have known about her until later (after KOTCS). And as for not mentioning his son Mutt in the TV series, well, Mutt is an entirely forgettable character. Indy could well have fallen out with him and become estranged, and devoted more time to his daughter.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:01 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
The Journal has the same cover, I guess he just gets lucky and is able to always find a brown journal with an Ibis on the cover.

You did put alot of work into that theory but Im not buying it. Old Indy was cut out of the DVD realeases of the show which conincided with the release of KotCS. It seems pretty clear Lucas cut that cause it would conflict with the new movie he was getting ready to release.
Yes I know.I just wanted to do the theory for the fun of it,to see what it would be like if George,at the last minute,decided to keep Indy's daughter as part of the canon(like I wished he would have always done).But like I said,in these situations,it's fun to theorize.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:37 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
Well the Mutt character was never mentioned in the old Indy cutscenes but a daughter was. We know he only had one kid with Marion and being as Marion is almost 50 by the time they get married in KotKS, they aren't having anymore. The fact they are cut seems pretty safe to say that Lucas didnt like it. I doubt he will ever make an offical statment on it, being as it wouldn't make him anymore money...I kid Georgie Boy

In fairness, he put a lot of additional time, money and effort into Young Indy even long after it was clear it was never going to be a moneymaker. But about cutting Old Indy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
The Journal has the same cover, I guess he just gets lucky and is able to always find a brown journal with an Ibis on the cover.

You did put alot of work into that theory but Im not buying it. Old Indy was cut out of the DVD realeases of the show which conincided with the release of KotCS. It seems pretty clear Lucas cut that cause it would conflict with the new movie he was getting ready to release.

Old Indy was cut from the show long before the new movie, actually; in fact, it began while the show was still running. As you might be aware, Mystery of the Blues was originally broadcast in the US as Young Indiana Jones and the Mystery of the Blues, and aired as a regular Young Indiana Jones Chronicles episode complete with the opening title, but outside the US it was run as two separate episodes, "Chicago, April 1920" and "Chicago, May 1920," and these two episodes had different bookends, set not in 1950 and starring Harrison Ford as middle-aged Indy, but in contemporary times and starring George Hall as old Indy.

Rick McCallum said in an interview many years ago that they decided to do the different bookends (with Harrison Ford) because after the show had been on a while, they realized the Old Indy bookends "were not working" - not that the events in them weren't canon or anything, but that viewers simply weren't responding favorably or something to the Old Indy segments, as far as I can determine. Eventually they began running shows without any bookends at all, and that was many years before the script for Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull finally got hammered out. And when the series finally got its initial (partial) home video release in the US in 1999 - on VHS, as part of "The Complete Adventures of Indiana Jones" - it had already been reconfigured into its "The Adventures of Young Indiana Jones" format, with all the George Hall / Old Indy bookends dropped and the one-hour episodes melded together into two-hour (well, 90 minute) movies. That was eight or nine years and at least a couple major script revisions before the fourth feature film came out. Whatever one thinks about the decision to drop the old Indy bookends, it was clearly done for reasons having nothing to do with conflicts with the family history established in KotCS.

And FWIW, while the bookend sequences have been omitted from this latest version of the show, many of the shows now end with a shot of Old Indy's hands closing the journal, which suggests a 90-something Indy is still part of the canon, in at least some small way. Again, FWIW, of course...

All this isn't to say the bookends are definitively canon; the fact that they've been excised at all certainly suggests at least the possibility that they aren't (whatever the reason for their removal), but I also think it's not out of the question they hold the same canon status as, say, the scenes with Luke and Biggs and their friends on Tatooine that were famously deleted from the original Star Wars - they could well still be part of the canon, the body of Indy "fact, "just not part (any longer) of the actual shows that we, the viewers, get to see.
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Old 02-27-2010, 04:09 PM   #207
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It's a shame they don't have old Indy as part of the series anymore.It's a good thing we have Stoo!
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:26 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by AnnieJones
It's a shame they don't have old Indy as part of the series anymore.It's a good thing we have Stoo!

Indeed, it's a good thing we have Stoo for more reasons than just his "Old Indiana Jones Chronicles" on YouTube! He's one of the finest contributors to the Raven.
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:54 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crack that whip
In fairness, he put a lot of additional time, money and effort into Young Indy even long after it was clear it was never going to be a moneymaker. But about cutting Old Indy...



Old Indy was cut from the show long before the new movie, actually; in fact, it began while the show was still running. As you might be aware, Mystery of the Blues was originally broadcast in the US as Young Indiana Jones and the Mystery of the Blues, and aired as a regular Young Indiana Jones Chronicles episode complete with the opening title, but outside the US it was run as two separate episodes, "Chicago, April 1920" and "Chicago, May 1920," and these two episodes had different bookends, set not in 1950 and starring Harrison Ford as middle-aged Indy, but in contemporary times and starring George Hall as old Indy.

Rick McCallum said in an interview many years ago that they decided to do the different bookends (with Harrison Ford) because after the show had been on a while, they realized the Old Indy bookends "were not working" - not that the events in them weren't canon or anything, but that viewers simply weren't responding favorably or something to the Old Indy segments, as far as I can determine. Eventually they began running shows without any bookends at all, and that was many years before the script for Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull finally got hammered out. And when the series finally got its initial (partial) home video release in the US in 1999 - on VHS, as part of "The Complete Adventures of Indiana Jones" - it had already been reconfigured into its "The Adventures of Young Indiana Jones" format, with all the George Hall / Old Indy bookends dropped and the one-hour episodes melded together into two-hour (well, 90 minute) movies. That was eight or nine years and at least a couple major script revisions before the fourth feature film came out. Whatever one thinks about the decision to drop the old Indy bookends, it was clearly done for reasons having nothing to do with conflicts with the family history established in KotCS.

And FWIW, while the bookend sequences have been omitted from this latest version of the show, many of the shows now end with a shot of Old Indy's hands closing the journal, which suggests a 90-something Indy is still part of the canon, in at least some small way. Again, FWIW, of course...

All this isn't to say the bookends are definitively canon; the fact that they've been excised at all certainly suggests at least the possibility that they aren't (whatever the reason for their removal), but I also think it's not out of the question they hold the same canon status as, say, the scenes with Luke and Biggs and their friends on Tatooine that were famously deleted from the original Star Wars - they could well still be part of the canon, the body of Indy "fact, "just not part (any longer) of the actual shows that we, the viewers, get to see.

Regardless, I think its pretty safe to say after KotKS that the bookends arent canon anymore. Especially being as the Ultimate guide shows the timeline of Indy's life and does not go past the events of 1957. Leland Chee who is in charge of what is canon for both SW and IJ worked on the book and if it were still deemed canon by lucasfilm it would have been included in that timeline. They had a lot of pretty obscure Indy stuff mentioned in that timeline, such as a French book series, so its not like they forgot. No one is ever gonna come out and publicly say that something isn't canon anymore. For example we know the past stories of Boba Fett from books, such as the "Tales of the Bounty Hunters" are no longer canon anymore because of AOTC. There are several other examples from SW where the prequels have rendered older material to be ousted from the canon. KotKS did that to the old Indy bookends. Hell, with this new Clone Wars show we are seeing it even more with SW and many of the stuff that is no longer part of the canon is only a couple years old.

As for my comments on Lucas I was only kidding. I actually think people are often to hard on him. I can't think of a better story teller in Hollywood. I mean Peter Jackson gets all this praise but his movies don't feature orginal stories he created. He took a book series and turned it into a movie and did an updated version of a classic film from the 30's. Lucas created the stories for both SW and IJ, 2 classic series, both of which are very originial. Sure there was some silly elements in the SW prequels and KotCS, but most people still enjoyed them. I think Lucas deserves a little more respect than he is often given.

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Old 09-09-2010, 06:01 PM   #210
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I don't know if someone else has already mentioned these flaws in the journal.If so,I apologize.

First of all,I would like to point out that Indy in Mexico,March 1916,was captured by Pancho Villa's men when Pancho Villa attacked Columbus,New Mexico,on March 9,1916.In the journal the "Russians" put 1906.

Second,if he was captured on the 9th,it would have been in the early morning,on the 12th,that he would have left Mexico with Remy.I checked the series and counted how many days had passed between the time he got captured to the time he left.According to the series it was 3 days that had gone by.But,the journal indicates 6 days had gone by,from 9th to the 15th,not 3 days,from the 9th to the 12th.The reason I say this is because the journal indicates that Indy left Mexico on the 15th.

In the series
March 9th-He got captured.
March 10th-He wrote letter to his father,Henry Jones,Sr.
March 11th-He talked with the old Mexican man.
March 12th-He left Mexico with Remy in the early morning.


Thirdly,the letter Indy wrote to his dad was different in the journal than it was in the series.

Letter in the series
How it all started was I planned a visit to the border,the sole object of which was to enlarge my education.I feel confident that you would have approved.However,as Robbie Burns so aptly said and as you so often quote him,"The best laid schemes of mice and men..."

Then as we all know Indy changed the letter to read as follows.
Dear Dad,
I've joined the Mexican Revolution.Sorry about high school.Take care of Indiana for me.
Your son,
Henry

Letter according to the lost journal
I know this isn't what you would've expected of me.But I'm not sure you can really understand what's happening in Mexico,what the Revolution is all about,and why I feel I have to stay.Sometimes life takes us somewhere we ourselves don't expect,"the best laid schemes of mice and men..."

This second part is the same in the series as it is in the lost journal(thank goodness).
Dear Dad,
I've joined the Mexican Revolution.Sorry about high school.Take care of Indiana for me.
Your son,
Henry


Fourth(and last in this post),in Raiders,the numbers on the box that the Ark of the Covenant was put in are different by one number.
ROTLA-9906753
Journal-9906763
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:44 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
As for my comments on Lucas I was only kidding. I actually think people are often to hard on him. I can't think of a better story teller in Hollywood. I mean Peter Jackson gets all this praise but his movies don't feature orginal stories he created. He took a book series and turned it into a movie and did an updated version of a classic film from the 30's. Lucas created the stories for both SW and IJ, 2 classic series, both of which are very originial. Sure there was some silly elements in the SW prequels and KotCS, but most people still enjoyed them. I think Lucas deserves a little more respect than he is often given.
Agreed! It's so easy to be a critic and knock down someone else's creations. It's much more difficult to create something and risk putting it out there for the world. That's why most people don't do it. But Lucas did.
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Old 07-08-2018, 05:41 PM   #212
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I recently checked this book out of the library. I have never seen such quality go into a book! The elastic book marker will eventually get worn being a library book but it was cool. The hardcover was like simulated plush leather. the graphics in it almost makes you feel like you are looking at actual papers and pictures glued into the book. At least one time I found myself touching the page just to check.

I didn't actually read most of it, but browsed the pages one by one over a few days when I had time.
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