Crystal Skull Vs Temple of Doom - Which is better?

Darth Vile

New member
Major West said:
The franchise started to become an homage to itself with Last Crusade. When it gave us the story of young Indys first adventure in which he conveniently learned how to use a whip, scar his mouth, develop a fear of snakes and acquire his hat all in one 10 minute sequence. (The rot set in right there IMO).
Yep I agree. As mentioned in my previous post, as much as I love it, TLC is the least original of the first three... and whilst I think TOD is the weaker, there is no denying it's a genuine love letter to movies of the 1930's/40's.


Lance Quazar said:
I don't believe that for a second.

While I definitely think that "Raiders" has one of the best macguffins in movie history, in general, those kinds of elements rank INCREDIBLY low on an audience's collective radar.

Even now, no one remembers "Raiders" because of the Ark itself, but because of the action, the characters, the sense of adventure.

How many really cool movies have utterly forgettable and irrelevant macguffins? The audience doesn't care. As long as the story is fairly coherent, and the movie is entertaining in engaging, it doesn't matter one whit what the characters are actually struggling over.
I basically agree. Whilst the Indy macguffins may reenforce ones like/dislike of any given movie, the specific object in question is not inherently significant enough to make the movie good or bad i.e. what counts is not the macguffin itself, but how successfully the macguffin drives the plot. ;)
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
Peru1936 said:
I somewhat agree with this, but I think (and I've mentioned this before) that a lot of the disdain for Temple and Crystal Skull comes from a general lack of understanding of the source background of the plots by a predominently Judeo-Christian based audience.

I think your quite right with that observation.

I actually know people who actually think LC is a better movie than ROTLA, and I think it resorts to the fact they're religious Christians so they can relate to the story of the holy grail with Jesus then they can of the lost ark with Moses.

Frankly, I too was raised a Roman Catholic but that doesn't blind me from realizing Raiders and Temple are the better movies. ;) :p
 

Indy's brother

New member
TOD was the ugly duckling out of the OT partially because of the Indian artifact. But also because no Sallah, no desert, a plot that involves less travel, no nazi's, an annoying love interest, a spunky upstart doing some of the fighting. Sound familiar? All of these elements were eschewed for LC, making LC more accessible to people that were expecting more of the same after being blown away by ROTLA. I've grown way past that and now enjoy Doom for the movie it was intended to be and not the movie it was following (or precluding). IMHO, TOD, as a member of the OT, has been ousted from it's awkward place with the mere existence of KOTCS 19 years later. Now CS is the odd man out, and as someone mentioned here a year ago (can't remember who) once another film emerges, some of the weight will be taken off of CS.

As far as someone thinking LC is better than ROTLA. I just don't get that.
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Major West said:
The only time the genre was done better was in 1981 with Raiders.

The first movie in the Brendan Fraser cycle of The Mummy is just as good as The Last Crusade. Tomb of the Dragon Emperor is better than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, as is Sahara. Hell, I'd rather watch both Tomb Raider movies over Kingdom any day of the week.

The argument isn't whether or not anybody has excelled over Raiders, but whether or not anybody as equaled that excitement -- they have, and in spades. Since Indy hung up his hat n' whip with Crusade, others have taken up the mantle without relying on nostalgic convention.

Major West said:
I'm afraid the box office returns proved that there's nothing old and thin about Indiana Jones, apart from the fact that Ford is 67.

Just because The Da Vinci Code remained at the top of the NY Times best seller list for something like two-years, doesn't mean that it's not a primer in how not to write a sentence in the English language.

Box office returns are a poor indication of quality.



Major West said:
The fanboys might like to whine about a bit of CGI and aliens but the general public lapped it up.

Imagine how much more they would've lapped up if it was actually a good movie. It started off well, quickly became, middling, and completely fell off the rails in the final hour. The "fans" don't need nostalgia to sell them on another Indy adventure. We need quality.

And few of us are actually arguing about the use of CGI. The real argument lies in the horrible execution of said CGI. It did little to actually heighten the excitement on the screen.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Le Saboteur said:
The first movie in the Brendan Fraser cycle of The Mummy is just as good as The Last Crusade. Tomb of the Dragon Emperor is better than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, as is Sahara. Hell, I'd rather watch both Tomb Raider movies over Kingdom any day of the week.

The argument isn't whether or not anybody has excelled over Raiders, but whether or not anybody as equaled that excitement -- they have, and in spades. Since Indy hung up his hat n' whip with Crusade, others have taken up the mantle without relying on nostalgic convention.



Just because The Da Vinci Code remained at the top of the NY Times best seller list for something like two-years, doesn't mean that it's not a primer in how not to write a sentence in the English language.

Box office returns are a poor indication of quality.





Imagine how much more they would've lapped up if it was actually a good movie. It started off well, quickly became, middling, and completely fell off the rails in the final hour. The "fans" don't need nostalgia to sell them on another Indy adventure. We need quality.

And few of us are actually arguing about the use of CGI. The real argument lies in the horrible execution of said CGI. It did little to actually heighten the excitement on the screen.

Look, nobody cares. Don't make this into another "KOTCS Stinks Because" thread where we all argue.

Maybe compare how TOD is different than KOTCS...that'd fit this thread more.

What you said is the same-old crap/whining. We all know the criticisms by now.

Sorry if I come off as rude, but I'm just touchy at the moment.
 
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Le Saboteur

Active member
Peru1936 said:
I somewhat agree with this, but I think (and I've mentioned this before) that a lot of the disdain for Temple and Crystal Skull comes from a general lack of understanding of the source background of the plots by a predominently Judeo-Christian based audience.


I sort of agree with this. While the original trilogy may have been written for a predominantly Judeo-Christian audience, even they would've been confused if Indy had started going after the really obscure artifacts within the Abrahamic tradition. The Grail, the Ark of the Covenant &, say, Noah's Ark are very much within the purview of the general movie going public. Spear of Longinus, Shroud of Turin, Key of Solomon: these not so much. They may eventually understand the players, but no less so than in Temple.

Indy's brother said:
But also because no Sallah, no desert, a plot that involves less travel, no Nazi's...

I call bunk on the "less travel" argument; always have, and always will. Most of the damn movie took place within Egypt's borders. Indy & Marion weren't zooming about the planet creating a travelogue. If having one less location makes a difference, then I don't know what to say.

There was real pathos in Raiders brought out in large part by Belloq's relationship with Indy; he knew more than the Beards were willing to tell us, and that really came to light in the encounter in that Cairo cafe after Marion's "death." It was a thin line between Belloq & Indy, and this was continued in Temple.

Here was a character who was... morally & emotionally complex while still being a so-called hero. His motives were less than wholesome, worse was hinted at, and there were no cartoon Nazis to pummel in order to make the audience feel good about themselves.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Le Saboteur said:
Here was a character who was... morally & emotionally complex while still being a so-called hero. His motives were less than wholesome, worse was hinted at, and there were no cartoon Nazis to pummel in order to make the audience feel good about themselves.

That's a good summary.

This thread is concerned with TOD and KOTCS (which being better), yet it's inevitable that both are being judged against the original Raiders movie. Both are generally seen as inferior products, when compared to Raiders.

However, I still think there is too much reverence paid to the original. I don't mean that to be contentious, but merely practical.

If we go back to the beginning, to understand what Lucas and Spielberg had in mind, it wasn't in their minds that they were going to create a piece of movie history that would potentially spawn four other movies. Lucas wanted to make his own version of Bond, but set in a rip-roaring 1930s pulp style. It started out as a bit of fun, a feel-good action movie full of comedy and shocks.

They paid so little reverence to their own project that they failed to check for historical and geographical innaccuracies: the German army in Egypt, foreigners running taverns in Nepal, machine-pistols that weren't yet invented, an Afrika Korps before it's creation etc. There are so many ananchronisms that we're forced to see Indy's world as a fantasy world, rather than an account of the 1930s we know from our own history.

Raiders was born of naivety. The idea for the Raven in Nepal came about because Lucas knew that there was an American run 'Rick's place' there in the 1970s. The fact that this would have been impossible in 1936 was not checked.

Even after Raiders was seen to be highly successful, Lucas was still committing anachronisms to film (a Kubelwagen in The Last Crusade, for example).

This isn't to say that Raiders wasn't a great movie, just that to understand TOD or KOTCS, I think we must understand what the intention of the first movie actually was.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Le Saboteur said:
The first movie in the Brendan Fraser cycle of The Mummy is just as good as The Last Crusade. Tomb of the Dragon Emperor is better than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, as is Sahara. Hell, I'd rather watch both Tomb Raider movies over Kingdom any day of the week.

Aha - And now I understand your baseline. However, it sort of nullifies your argument... a bit like saying I'd rather listen to Britney Spears than Joni Mitchell i.e. wether one is inherently better than the other can be debated, but the fact that you'd listen to Britney Spears (read Sahara and Tomb Raider) in the first place speaks volumes about your definition of good/bad etc.
 

Indy's brother

New member
Le Saboteur said:
If having one less location makes a difference, then I don't know what to say.

On it's own, no. Definitely not. That was simply one element in the sum of what made TOD different from ROTLA and LC. Not even close to being the linchpin in my summation of what made TOD so different from the other two films in the OT, if there even is one.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Le Saboteur said:
The first movie in the Brendan Fraser cycle of The Mummy is just as good as The Last Crusade. Tomb of the Dragon Emperor is better than Kingdom of the Crystal Skull...

Whoa, whoa, whoa....

I'm in total agreement with you regarding the weaknesses/failure of KOTCS.

But, to put things in perspective, "Tomb of the Dragon Emperor" was literally one of the worst films I've EVER seen in a theater. KOTCS may be terrible, but "Mummy 3" is a cinematic war crime.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Lance Quazar said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa....

I'm in total agreement with you regarding the weaknesses/failure of KOTCS.

But, to put things in perspective, "Tomb of the Dragon Emperor" was literally one of the worst films I've EVER seen in a theater. KOTCS may be terrible, but "Mummy 3" is a cinematic war crime.

And coming from you that actually does say alot!
:hat:
 

Darth Vile

New member
Lance Quazar said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa....

I'm in total agreement with you regarding the weaknesses/failure of KOTCS.

But, to put things in perspective, "Tomb of the Dragon Emperor" was literally one of the worst films I've EVER seen in a theater. KOTCS may be terrible, but "Mummy 3" is a cinematic war crime.

As far as big Hollywood productions go, although The Mummy 2 & 3 are quite poor (similar to National Treasure), I think they are even in a league above the likes of Tomb Raider, Sahara, Batman & Robin and Alien V Predator: Requiem (which I personally believe resides on the 9th circle of Dante's inferno). Whatever KOTCS shortfalls, it shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as those movies... :)
 

kongisking

Active member
Lance Quazar said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa....

I'm in total agreement with you regarding the weaknesses/failure of KOTCS.

But, to put things in perspective, "Tomb of the Dragon Emperor" was literally one of the worst films I've EVER seen in a theater. KOTCS may be terrible, but "Mummy 3" is a cinematic war crime.

Mummy 3 was a good load of fun with some clunky dialogue and hammy acting. Every movie, even the really great ones, has these moments, so just because it has them doesn't mean it's bad. And it's a MUMMY MOVIE, hello! This series pratically made its name on clunky dialogue and hammy acting, adding to the fun! The first movie was fantastic, the second was a good rollicking time, and the third was a nice entertaining waste of two hours packed to the gills with action, humor (some of which, I will admit, fell flat), effects and neato booby traps. Don't bash it just because it stayed true to the series' own standards. On that level, as a Mummy movie, it succeeds.
 

Major West

Member
kongisking said:
Mummy 3 was a good load of fun with some clunky dialogue and hammy acting. Every movie, even the really great ones, has these moments, so just because it has them doesn't mean it's bad. And it's a MUMMY MOVIE, hello! This series pratically made its name on clunky dialogue and hammy acting, adding to the fun! The first movie was fantastic, the second was a good rollicking time, and the third was a nice entertaining waste of two hours packed to the gills with action, humor (some of which, I will admit, fell flat), effects and neato booby traps. Don't bash it just because it stayed true to the series' own standards. On that level, as a Mummy movie, it succeeds.

I always thought the 'Mummy' films were a cheap knock off of Indy. I'd happily watch KOTCS over any one them.
 

DocWhiskey

Well-known member
Major West said:
I always thought the 'Mummy' films were a cheap knock off of Indy. I'd happily watch KOTCS over any one them.

The Mummy was different enough from Indy to stand on it's own. I don't see it as a "cheap knockoff". I see it has being influenced by Indy. Just as Indy was influenced by certain adventure serials. I mean, there's clips posted right here on The Raven of old adventure serials depicting fedora clad adventurers being chased by giant boulders, walls shooting arrows, and even encountering the ark. But you don't view the Indiana Jones franchise as cheap knockoffs, do you?

Watch this (though I'm sure everyone has):
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GUPDuQq9GsM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GUPDuQq9GsM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

A lot of things in their look awfully similar, don't they?

RotLA (the superior film) "knocked off" plenty too. Everything that's considered very "Indy" was considered something else before it. The films are throwbacks.
 
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Major West said:
I always thought the 'Mummy' films were a cheap knock off of Indy. I'd happily watch KOTCS over any one them.


That's funny...

I just so happened to have just watched The Mummy oh... about 10 minutes ago. First time in around 10 years. And while it's simple-minded, poorly scripted and highly derivative, at no point did I see a bumbling 50-something bimbo drive a car off a cliff while smiling like a moron.

It's stupid, but hardly unpalatable. The picture had sense enough to kill off characters rather than string them along for the duration of the piece as set dressing.


Needless to say, I'll take the Steven Sommer's schlock over the latest abortion to sully the name that once stood for adventure.

That name is hardly Rick O'Connell, but Dr. Jones don't mean what it used to... Vernacular's changed and all...





I will say, it was amusing looking back on an 11 year old summer movie. What was (and is) a loud, overly busy, unrefined and yet over-produced film seems rather tame in the wake of even louder and busier fare to befoul screens since.
 

Darth Vile

New member
ResidentAlien said:
That's funny...

I just so happened to have just watched The Mummy oh... about 10 minutes ago. First time in around 10 years. And while it's simple-minded, poorly scripted and highly derivative, at no point did I see a bumbling 50-something bimbo drive a car off a cliff while smiling like a moron.

It's stupid, but hardly unpalatable. The picture had sense enough to kill off characters rather than string them along for the duration of the piece as set dressing.


Needless to say, I'll take the Steven Sommer's schlock over the latest abortion to sully the name that once stood for adventure.

That name is hardly Rick O'Connell, but Dr. Jones don't mean what it used to... Vernacular's changed and all...





I will say, it was amusing looking back on an 11 year old summer movie. What was (and is) a loud, overly busy, unrefined and yet over-produced film seems rather tame in the wake of even louder and busier fare to befoul screens since.

I think the first 'Mummy' movie (as in the 1999 version), is probably a better pastiche of/homage to Indiana Jones than KOTCS was. However, I'm not sure there is anything significantly better about it other than Rachel Weisz (who plays a fine damsel in distress), and what was a really nice digitized replication of 1930's Cairo. I agree that what, at the time, seemed like a really bombastic movie, now seems quite sedate compared to more modern action/adventure movies.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
On topic: Which is better? “Doom” of course!:whip:

Off topic:
DocWhiskey said:
I mean, there's clips posted right here on The Raven of old adventure serials depicting fedora clad adventurers being chased by giant boulders, walls shooting arrows, and even encountering the ark.
Exactly what are you referring to here?:confused: None of the clips in the video you posted above are from “old adventure serials”. They are all from films.

If you’re talking about the video that I made (Raiders of the Lost Archives: A Shot-by-Shot Comparison), then you’ve been duped by the editing. There are no fedora-wearing adventurers running from boulders, no walls shooting arrows and only a very, small percentage of clips are from serials.

If you’re talking about some other completely different videos, then where can they be found? Please post a link or point me in the right direction, Doc. I’d like to see these clips of “old adventure serials” which feature arrow-shooting walls, boulders chasing guys in fedoras and THE ARK. The ark in a serial?:confused:
 
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