Is KotCS too Fake?

For better or for worse Crystal Skull is as close as you'll get to an Animated Indiana Jones adventure.

Hell...it probably SHOULD have been one.

It was one big cartoon.
 

UIMJ

New member
indyartist said:
I didn't think it was truthful when Indy was hanging around watching the flying saucer go up with ALL that debri flying around. That stuff could've easily hit him and should have.

Ironically, that's the only alien related thing that I liked. It made sense. The magnetism of the hovering ship created a clear event horizon where the launch ended and the standard atmospher began.

I actually thought that was cool.
 

StoneTriple

New member
Udvarnoky said:
mr.kotcs said:
It's just totally wrong to judge the fakeness of something based on the fact that it wasn't made in the 80s.
Did I just read this?

It sounds a little out there alright, but I think he's brought up something (possibly without even realizing it) that we've discussed here before. Something closer to what really bothers some people about Kingdom - it wasn't made in the 80s.

Kingdom had detractors, some of them very dug-in, before it was even released. It wasn't made in the 80s, so they saw it (and still do) as something that can't possibly be good. In some pretzel logic sort of way, it trampled on sacred ground.

They were\are in denial of what has taken place in the other three films. Kingdom was suddenly judged by a different set of rules, in some alternate film universe. To name just a few;

Nazi monkey who salutes and says uh oh - serious
Prairie dog looking out of a hole - silly

Falling out of a plane in a raft & falling to the ground unharmed - realistic
Going over 3 waterfalls and surviving - unrealistic

Vogel ? realistic portrayal of a Nazi officer
Spalko ? unrealistic caricature

It also turns out the storybook ending they were so in love with happened not to be the end of the story, so they rebelled against it. Some almost violently. There was a fellow around here last year that just about needed an intervention after Kingdom had destroyed his world.

Those types of people are going to go after nearly every part of the film that they can to justify their inability to accept it. Today it's the color, last week it was the CGI, months ago it was the ship, before that it was the score, next week it will be something else, and so on.

The water seems to have leveled off in here - the haters are always the same, the fans are always the same. Just different conversations to keep making our points, to keep showing we?re right.
 

HJJNR

New member
StoneTriple said:
It sounds a little out there alright, but I think he's brought up something (possibly without even realizing it) that we've discussed here before. Something closer to what really bothers some people about Kingdom - it wasn't made in the 80s.

Kingdom had detractors, some of them very dug-in, before it was even released. It wasn't made in the 80s, so they saw it (and still do) as something that can't possibly be good. In some pretzel logic sort of way, it trampled on sacred ground.

They were\are in denial of what has taken place in the other three films. Kingdom was suddenly judged by a different set of rules, in some alternate film universe. To name just a few;

Nazi monkey who salutes and says uh oh - serious
Prairie dog looking out of a hole - silly

Falling out of a plane in a raft & falling to the ground unharmed - realistic
Going over 3 waterfalls and surviving - unrealistic

Vogel ? realistic portrayal of a Nazi officer
Spalko ? unrealistic caricature

It also turns out the storybook ending they were so in love with happened not to be the end of the story, so they rebelled against it. Some almost violently. There was a fellow around here last year that just about needed an intervention after Kingdom had destroyed his world.

Those types of people are going to go after nearly every part of the film that they can to justify their inability to accept it. Today it's the color, last week it was the CGI, months ago it was the ship, before that it was the score, next week it will be something else, and so on.

The water seems to have leveled off in here - the haters are always the same, the fans are always the same. Just different conversations to keep making our points, to keep showing we?re right.


Your absolutely right in what you say. Lots of people had the same feeling with Rocky Balboa and Rambo before they were even made.Even going back to new Star wars trilogy... they were almost instantly dismissed before they had been made. So almost EVERYTHING you said here, makes perfect sense to me. I have to admit that I feel in a similar way but mainly because Im bitter that they didn't make another Indy sooner, seeing Indy white haired was a slight shocker and the way they made him behave like a bit of a doddering old fart. Excellent point, Thank you.
 

AlivePoet

New member
StoneTriple said:
The water seems to have leveled off in here - the haters are always the same, the fans are always the same. Just different conversations to keep making our points, to keep showing we’re right.

I was hearing you out until this last bit. If you haven't noticed, they're not always the same. Many more now care less for the film than did before, and this has been a long time coming. You might notice that the general sentiments toward the film are now lacking, while when the film was released it received mostly positive reviews from critics and fans alike. Now the media is trying to ruin it further by claiming that it met medicore reviews at best, wasn't a hit, etc., which is BS, obviously. And increasingly, fans are subtly changing their stance on the film over this period of months, perhaps because they are finally accepting Kingdom for what it is--and what it is isn't all that impressive.

So the waters haven't settled, and won't really settle until some redemption is brought in the form of Indy 5. But then will come a new wave of comparisons. ;)
 

JP Jones

New member
AlivePoet said:
I was hearing you out until this last bit. If you haven't noticed, they're not always the same. Many more now care less for the film than did before, and this has been a long time coming. You might notice that the general sentiments toward the film are now lacking, while when the film was released it received mostly positive reviews from critics and fans alike. Now the media is trying to ruin it further by claiming that it met medicore reviews at best, wasn't a hit, etc., which is BS, obviously. And increasingly, fans are subtly changing their stance on the film over this period of months, perhaps because they are finally accepting Kingdom for what it is--and what it is isn't all that impressive.

So the waters haven't settled, and won't really settle until some redemption is brought in the form of Indy 5. But then will come a new wave of comparisons. ;)
That's the point I tried to explain in my "What has the world Come to" thread.
 

Darth Vile

New member
AlivePoet said:
I was hearing you out until this last bit. If you haven't noticed, they're not always the same. Many more now care less for the film than did before, and this has been a long time coming. You might notice that the general sentiments toward the film are now lacking, while when the film was released it received mostly positive reviews from critics and fans alike. Now the media is trying to ruin it further by claiming that it met medicore reviews at best, wasn't a hit, etc., which is BS, obviously. And increasingly, fans are subtly changing their stance on the film over this period of months, perhaps because they are finally accepting Kingdom for what it is--and what it is isn't all that impressive.

So the waters haven't settled, and won't really settle until some redemption is brought in the form of Indy 5. But then will come a new wave of comparisons. ;)

If I may be so bold... That's a rather unsubtle dig at the movie, backed up by zero evidence... If you are stating that there is a swing against KOTCS, in fan communities such as this, I'd have to disagree. In fact, I'd say that more people now seem to enjoy it than did before. You only have to look at the recent poll on these boards to show that circa 80% liked it. Of course this isn’t necessarily reflective of quality, but it does reflect general fan attitudes (whether you like that view or not).

What I would say is that the fan communities, wether originally pro or anti KOTCS, seem more willing to accept both its shortfalls and the things it does well. Views are somewhat less black and white than they were 12 months ago.
 
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AlivePoet

New member
Darth Vile said:
If I may be so bold... That's a rather unsubtle dig at the movie, backed up by zero evidence... If you are stating that there is a swing against KOTCS, in fan communities such as this, I'd have to disagree. In fact, I'd say that more people now seem to enjoy it than did before. You only have to look at the recent poll on these boards to show that circa 80% liked it. Of course this isn’t necessarily reflective of quality, but it does reflect general fan attitudes (whether you like that view or not).

What I would say is that the fan communities, wether originally pro or anti KOTCS, seem more willing to accept both its shortfalls and the things it does well. Views are somewhat less black and white than they were 12 months ago.

Nah Darth, you misinterpreted me. I actually kinda like the movie. But I've seen the steady progression of those who had a positive-neutral stance on the film when it first released turn to what are now feelings of--not malevolence per se, but--significant disappointment, and distaste. I'm not going to name anyone, but you've probably seen it also. That's not to say it hasn't also gone the other way for fans--it has--but I don't think there are quite as many prominent fans at The Raven who have had this case that voice their opinions quite as often.

I am less than impressed with the media's treatment of the film, especially since they are casting it in such a negative light now compared to when it was first released. And as for fans' perceptions changing, of course it was inevitable to some extent; they saw it then as something sacred, which they had been anticipating more than ever before. I know I was. I wanted it to be the best, and I saw it multiple times because I liked it more then than I do now. But that's because I didn't like it for what it was; I liked it for what I wanted it to be, and did my best to ignore the less attractive elements in the film. Now that it's been out for a while, those problems can be put into perspective and assessed without the aid of a giddy fanboy lens. And it's not all great, but it's far from all bad, I think. Not going to analyze it all now...

And obviously perceptions of the film are not as black and white as they were back when the film first was released; that's partially the point I was making, in stating that the waters haven't settled yet. Opinions are still changing as people watch or don't watch the film and continue to become more fond toward or distant from it.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Darth Vile said:
You only have to look at the recent poll on these boards to show that circa 80% liked it. Of course this isn’t necessarily reflective of quality, but it does reflect general fan attitudes (whether you like that view or not).

Yes, it reflects the general fan attitude...of this particular forum's fans...who are still around. If I may be so bold, this forum has progressively become subtly less welcoming to people whose opinion on the movie isn't positive or muted positive.
 

Darth Vile

New member
AlivePoet said:
Nah Darth, you misinterpreted me. I actually kinda like the movie. But I've seen the steady progression of those who had a positive-neutral stance on the film when it first released turn to what are now feelings of--not malevolence per se, but--significant disappointment, and distaste. I'm not going to name anyone, but you've probably seen it also. That's not to say it hasn't also gone the other way for fans--it has--but I don't think there are quite as many prominent fans at The Raven who have had this case that voice their opinions quite as often.

I am less than impressed with the media's treatment of the film, especially since they are casting it in such a negative light now compared to when it was first released. And as for fans' perceptions changing, of course it was inevitable to some extent; they saw it then as something sacred, which they had been anticipating more than ever before. I know I was. I wanted it to be the best, and I saw it multiple times because I liked it more then than I do now. But that's because I didn't like it for what it was; I liked it for what I wanted it to be, and did my best to ignore the less attractive elements in the film. Now that it's been out for a while, those problems can be put into perspective and assessed without the aid of a giddy fanboy lens. And it's not all great, but it's far from all bad, I think. Not going to analyze it all now...

And obviously perceptions of the film are not as black and white as they were back when the film first was released; that's partially the point I was making, in stating that the waters haven't settled yet. Opinions are still changing as people watch or don't watch the film and continue to become more fond toward or distant from it.

That’s fair enough... I just don't see the amount of media backlash you refer to (unless it's the usual general Lucas/Spielberg sniping). For example, the HD premiere of KOTCS was on satellite a couple of weeks back… and I noticed than the majority of listings magazines gave it 4 out of 5 stars, and were overtly positive. It appears that most listings (the ones I’ve seen anyhow) have reached a consensus that KOTCS is “entertaining and in a similar vein to the previous movies”, as opposed to something like the Star Wars prequels, where listings often mention them “not being as good” as the originals.

Seems to me that perhaps a certain section of the media have issues with the moviemakers, and not necessarily the movies themselves.

Udvarnoky said:
Yes, it reflects the general fan attitude...of this particular forum's fans...who are still around. If I may be so bold, this forum has progressively become subtly less welcoming to people whose opinion on the movie isn't positive or muted positive.

Opinion here is skewed obviously, but it is representative of a demographic that post on fan forums (as it's specifically an Indy fan site). As for the forum becoming "less welcoming", I've not seen anything to suggest that concern... The banter is, more often than not, reciprocal.
 
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Dr Bones

New member
Udvarnoky said:
Yes, it reflects the general fan attitude...of this particular forum's fans...who are still around. If I may be so bold, this forum has progressively become subtly less welcoming to people whose opinion on the movie isn't positive or muted positive.

Interestng point.

I liked it probably because it was Indy and had Harrison et al...and was nice just to see another Indy film.

That said it is my least favourite of the series.

A lot of the action scenes were implausible just as they were in the other films yet somehow it's harder to get away with today.

CGI secnes were unconvincing considering today's tech. The jungle chase was exceptionally poor when compared to truck chase where it was done in a real moving truck etc. But the mine car chase in TOD and plane vs car in TLC were fairly unrealistic too.

I don't thinks it's half as bad a people say and I enjoyed it fpr what it was...but I also don't think it's half as good as the others.
 

Cole

New member
I don't see how the CGI in the film is anything less than state-of-the-art by today's standards. And logically, do you think ILM would do "lesser" work for one of the biggest films of the decade? For Lucas's own film nonetheless?

The jungle chase is no truck chase, but I think it's still pretty good. They DID film it with moving vehicles.......but for something like the Mutt/Spalko sword fight, they couldn't have their lead actors actually doing those stunts on a moving vehicle.

If I'm not mistaken, there are a few shots of stuntmen doing the sword fight on moving vehicles though.
 

StoneTriple

New member
AlivePoet said:
Many more now care less for the film than did before, and this has been a long time coming. You might notice that the general sentiments toward the film are now lacking, while when the film was released it received mostly positive reviews from critics and fans alike.

I have no numbers to back this up, so it's really just a general feeling I have - but it seems to me as though the opposite is true. People started to warm to it after it was released on DVD and many around here were less harsh after a few months of owning it.

There also seems to be more articles\posts\etc where people have gone from "they shouldn't have made another" to "wonder what 5 is going to be about?"


*edit*
I should have just quoted DV and added +1
;)
 
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UIMJ

New member
The fact, is that detractors of something have been demonstrated in studies to be more vocal about whatever they are detracting than supporters of something will be in supporting it.

A logical conclusion is that it might seem that most people dislike the movie, but that's likely only because the people that didn't are complaining more loudly than the people that liked it are cheering it.

Indy IV was alright. It definitely had some doofy moments, but in many ways it was also what it had to be. I'm a supporter of more Indy films, even if not a pure supporter of KOTCS. However, the movie rekindled a toy line, sold a gazillion movie tickets and DVD's and Blu Rays and other merchandise. It was a success that most people participated in.

That's about that.
 

StoneTriple

New member
Udvarnoky said:
If I may be so bold, this forum has progressively become subtly less welcoming to people whose opinion on the movie isn't positive or muted positive.

I don't think they squelch criticism around here at all. They've been quicker to pull the plug on accounts created solely to hate-spam the board, but I'm certainly ok with that. Most of it was just noise I had to read around anyway (or add to my ignore list).
 

HovitosKing

Well-known member
Agreed. If anything, and I say this as a KotCS hater, the forum has grown more accustomed to hearing Indy 4 criticism and gets less worked up over anti-KotCS expressions. I think there were a lot of folks in denial early on, trying to convince themselves they loved it, and it drove them nuts to hear the truth lol. That's why the animosity was there in the early days. Now everyone has chilled out and accepted the fact that this film was truly terrible, or mostly terrible, or at the very least horrid. If you're feeling animosity from this board about your opinions, maybe you just don't know how to express them in a civil way. Or maybe you need to learn to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you and move on.
 

Dr Bones

New member
UIMJ said:
T
Indy IV was alright. It definitely had some doofy moments, but in many ways it was also what it had to be. I'm a supporter of more Indy films, even if not a pure supporter of KOTCS. However, the movie rekindled a toy line, sold a gazillion movie tickets and DVD's and Blu Rays and other merchandise. It was a success that most people participated in.

Gotta agree with that.

Cole said:
I don't see how the CGI in the film is anything less than state-of-the-art by today's standards. And logically, do you think ILM would do "lesser" work for one of the biggest films of the decade? For Lucas's own film nonetheless?

I personally don't consider ILM have delivered good CGI in KOTCS and some of their other work is of mixed quality.

Star Wars has some great, some not so great. King Kong had some iffy moments such as the dino chase onto the cliff edge...maybe CGI can't do cliff egde scenes yet?;)

Jurassic Park nailed the CGI and really set the bar.

we can spout on about ILM and other cgi past glories....but you don't win gold in every race.
 
Dr Bones said:
I personally don't consider ILM have delivered good CGI in KOTCS and some of their other work is of mixed quality.

Yeah,the CGI was a mixed bag, and just didn't look right more so than not. The "lens flares" might have solved some problems but they just looked bad.

The scenery at the top of the Temple before the retracting staircase opens looks crappy too, especially as Mac complained how stupid things were...
(n)
 

HJJNR

New member
Dr Bones said:
I personally don't consider ILM have delivered good CGI in KOTCS and some of their other work is of mixed quality.

King Kong had some iffy moments such as the dino chase onto the cliff edge...maybe CGI can't do cliff egde scenes yet?;)

King Kong? Wasn't that done by Weta?? Could be wrong...
 
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