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View Poll Results: Is Indiana Jones a good role model for young kids?
Yes, he's a perfect role model. 18 46.15%
Not really but I don't mindmy kids watching the movies. 17 43.59%
NO WAY! He took advantage of teenage Marion amongst other things. 1 2.56%
I have NO idea... 3 7.69%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-05-2010, 02:24 AM   #76
Montana Smith
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Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
It is possible that the white suited agents who set up the attack on Indy in the marketplace and conspire with Monkey Man were Gestapo agents or SS.

It's possible...

I forgot about them, Lance. Though Toht is the only one who openly wears his Party badge, as proof of his allegiance.

I was thinking more of the soldiers, as they are habitually tagged as Nazis (even by Lucas and Spielberg, which again shows the naivity in the creation of ROTLA). In The Last Crusade the German soldier Indy's punching on the tank is wearing a Wehrmacht uniform, yet also wearing a Swastika arm band, again showing naivity or a lack of interest in history and accuracy. All of Vogel's soldiers are in Wehrmacht uniform, yet wearing the arm bands, though Vogel himself is SS (his cuff title is for the 'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler' - the first SS regiment).

This really muddies the water when it comes to defining Indy's status, as the creators aren't even clear about the status of the Germans that Indy is killing.

Remember also that Germany had enforced military service, so some of Dietrich's unit could even be unwilling conscripts.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:38 AM   #77
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Ever since I was a child I've considered Indy to be a huge hero of mine. My parents let me watch the films as a kid and I never had any trouble differentiating the good guys from the villains. Granted, I was too young to understand some of the darker and more complex subtext of the films and of Indy's character but even now I still see him as a role model and hero. However, I do realize that the films contain some violent and creepy content that not all children will be able to handle or understand so I don't blame parents for being cautious. I think the franchise is pretty family friendly and most kids I know are familiar with the films to some extent.

I really love the fact Indy isn't one-dimensional and has an edgier side to him. He makes mistakes and often has to make a conscious choice to set his personal agenda aside for the greater good. We always know that Indy will save the day and do the right thing but watching how he does it and the decisions that he has to make really set him apart. Raiders and ToD are two great examples of where Indy starts out with somewhat selfish intentions and eventually sets those aside to achieve something greater.

Indy is a hero in my book but he does have a shadowy and darker side that make him relatable and more interesting than just a simple do-gooder, if that makes any sense.
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:21 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
monkey, I'm shocked. There is stuff in this post so disheartingly off I don't how to dress it properly... but I'll try.

So...
The revolver Indy used to shoot the swordsman was a .45 S&W Hand Ejector Model 2, not a .445 Webley Green, which he didn't use until Last Crusade.
Geeks rejoice.

I stand corrected. Thank you Finn.

Slightly smaller bullet, but same result.

Interesting points Montana, about the German soldiers being 'offed' by Indy. Some of them may have indeed been conscripts........much like many of the US soldiers killed in Viet Nam. Also interesting about the historical inaccuracy of the uniforms. I think that was a case of inattention to detail. "Raiders" was a great movie, but the wardrobe department was lacking in their attention to detail.

Anyway though this thread has become very interesting.

As for my own opinion: I think that of course Indiana Jones is a role model. I love the idea of kids digging in the backyard looking for archaeological treasures........and being interested in ancient Egypt and Mayan and Aztec cultures.......etc. etc.........jumping over chasms, finding secret doors.........and (ironically) getting away from the TV or game console, and actually playing outside and using their imagination.

My only fear is that Indiana Jones will be turned into a "childrens' character".

He is not.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:19 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by monkey
I stand corrected. Thank you Finn.

Slightly smaller bullet, but same result.

Interesting points Montana, about the German soldiers being 'offed' by Indy. Some of them may have indeed been conscripts........much like many of the US soldiers killed in Viet Nam. Also interesting about the historical inaccuracy of the uniforms. I think that was a case of inattention to detail. "Raiders" was a great movie, but the wardrobe department was lacking in their attention to detail.

Anyway though this thread has become very interesting.

As for my own opinion: I think that of course Indiana Jones is a role model. I love the idea of kids digging in the backyard looking for archaeological treasures........and being interested in ancient Egypt and Mayan and Aztec cultures.......etc. etc.........jumping over chasms, finding secret doors.........and (ironically) getting away from the TV or game console, and actually playing outside and using their imagination.

My only fear is that Indiana Jones will be turned into a "childrens' character".

He is not.

Thats exactly my point, my son and me are always out and about digging and searching and digging some more... he loves it and it gives me a chance to escape "being and adult" and revert back to getting my hands dirty and just having a blast.

I dont think you have anything to worry about as far as Indy being turned into a childrens character... he will only be a childrens character to the kids who watch it. (Does that make sense? it did in my head lol)
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:27 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Most people assume that the Germans in ROTLA are all Nazis, and therefore fair game, making Indy an automatic hero. The reality is not so black and white.

Since when is the world of Indiana Jones "reality"? Sure it's based in reality, but a reality which only serves as a starting point to tell a story. For the purposes of ROTLA and LC, there have to be protagonists and antagonists. The German soldiers were the right arm of the antagonists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
all they were doing was following simple orders, guarding a dig site and its find, and not committing atrocities.

Oh come now. These films are not meant to show all the intricacies of human nature, or the moral dilemmas of german soldiers getting caught up in the hype of National Socialism thereby becoming pawns in Hitler's chess game of world domination. All that's needed is a basic understanding that these soldiers are being used as a weapon by the larger evil element of these stories. To postulate their individual plights when not a single one of these soldiers was painted in more than one dimension is to misunderstand their role in these tales. This is pulp fiction, not historical drama.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
It was strange that Spielberg and Lucas didn't make Dietrich's unit SS, as they were the ones interested in religious artifacts

For WWII buffs, yes, I agree with you. Of course in the eyes of a child, there is no difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I see the definition of a "hero" as a person who puts themself in danger to protect the life of another, whereas Indy often puts himself into danger driven by his own desire to claim the prize. That he saves people at the same time is a by-product of his initial intention.

I would define Indy as an "anti-hero".

In the end, Indy always seems to redeem himself. ROTLA: "All I want is the girl", TOD: "Yes, now I see the power of the stones"..."It'd just be another rock in a museum collecting dust", in LC, he was actually questing for his father, and in KOTCS, his quest was to save Ox and Marion.

I like that he doesn't shot the guns out of nazi... er, German army regular's hands, and yes he has some character flaws. He's not flawed enough to walk one foot in the villain role and the other in the hero role (my understanding of "anti-hero") I think he is flawed enough to make him realistic, no more no less. I can see a valid argument for the anti-hero mantle, but I think that is an interpretation for the individual viewer to make, not necessarily a truth about his character. Maybe I'm old fashoined, simple, stubborn, or just still locked in the impression I got from indy when I was first introduced to him at the age of 10. He seemed like a full-fledged hero to me then, and didn't influence me to do anything amoral in his name since.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:39 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Indy's brother
Maybe I'm old fashoined, simple, stubborn, or just still locked in the impression I got from indy when I was first introduced to him at the age of 10. He seemed like a full-fledged hero to me then, and didn't influence me to do anything amoral in his name since.

Thats exactly my point. Does anyone know of any child getting into deep sh17 from imitating Dr.Jones or following his moral fibre? I hear (read) of nothing but positive views on that one... which answers the question of whether or not he is a good role model for young kids. We don't see teenagers on street corners attacking people with bullwhips and shouting "FIND THE 10" at people passing by now do we, lmao.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:48 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Indy's brother
Since when is the world of Indiana Jones "reality"?

For WWII buffs, yes, I agree with you. Of course in the eyes of a child, there is no difference.

In the end, Indy always seems to redeem himself.

...and here is where we get into danger jumping from perspective to perspective, topic to topic. I've selected your points, out of context no doubt but they do add up to a point worth mentioning.

"The ends justify the means", (Indy redeeming himself) is certainly a simply concept, (the eyes of a child) though expressed more sophisticatedly...but is that a philosophy you want them to embrace/endorse as an impressionable child?

I agree with the idea that someone can repent/redeem themselves...but in all things we learn the fundamentals first. crawl, walk, run, jump, dance...black and white, then shades of gray. It's always the exception to the rule a child wrestles with, and Indy is many shades of gray.

Thanks for not being too crazy,( ) the conversation is quality! (though Sharky types DO make me laugh!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HJJNR
Thats exactly my point. Does anyone know of any child getting into deep sh17 from imitating Dr.Jones or following his moral fibre? I hear (read) of nothing but positive views on that one... which answers the question of whether or not he is a good role model for young kids. We don't see teenagers on street corners attacking people with bullwhips and shouting "FIND THE 10" at people passing by now do we, lmao.
OH MY GOD! I saw someone doing JUST that! LOL!

No, the peril isn't the unstable who will latch upon anything, it's the philosophy ingrained in them that informs their decision making process, from the mundane, (and idiotic): Indy did it why can't I, he's a "hero" why shouldn't I...blah blah blah, to the honorable: he's why I'm an archaeologist, why I learn new languages...

Last edited by Rocket Surgeon : 03-05-2010 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon

No, the peril isn't the unstable who will latch upon anything, it's the philosophy ingrained in them that informs their decision making process, from the mundane, (and idiotic): Indy did it why can't I, he's a "hero" why shouldn't I...blah blah blah, to the honorable: he's why I'm an archaeologist, why I learn new languages...

Indeed! I think it comes down to parental guidance and how you teach your children the right morals and answer the Indy- related- questions. I agree (again sheesh) that Indy's actions are not justified by him redeeming himself at the end of each movie simply because; Imagine your child beating the crap out of some kid at school and then saying, its ok though cause I apologised at hometime. Then stealing a car and justifying his actions by... taking it back after he'd finished getting his friends to climb out on to the bonnet (hood) then crawl under it and into the back. (da daaa).

So, if your a crap parent, Indy can be harmful to the community and your childs friends. You've been warned...
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:36 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Indy's brother
Since when is the world of Indiana Jones "reality"? Sure it's based in reality, but a reality which only serves as a starting point to tell a story. For the purposes of ROTLA and LC, there have to be protagonists and antagonists. The German soldiers were the right arm of the antagonists.

Oh come now. These films are not meant to show all the intricacies of human nature, or the moral dilemmas of german soldiers getting caught up in the hype of National Socialism thereby becoming pawns in Hitler's chess game of world domination. All that's needed is a basic understanding that these soldiers are being used as a weapon by the larger evil element of these stories. To postulate their individual plights when not a single one of these soldiers was painted in more than one dimension is to misunderstand their role in these tales. This is pulp fiction, not historical drama.

As per many of my other posts in other threads, I firmly view the world of Indy as existing in a parallel universe - Indy's world is not ours. That much is evidenced by the Raven in Nepal (an impossibility in our world), the Germans in Egypt (most unlikely under British eyes); the weapons and vehicles existing before their date of invention and production etc.

Yet, within Indy's 'other' world there are elements that we are meant to recognize, and therefore trigger our emotions. If we are to discuss Indy's morality in detail, then are we not also to discuss the nature of the protagonists?

On one hand it is a pulp film, full of anachronism, inaccuracy, and unreality. Yet on the other, ROTLA has the power to inspire us to write in great detail at places such as this. There are things worth discussing in this film, and its successors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy's brother
For WWII buffs, yes, I agree with you. Of course in the eyes of a child, there is no difference.

I believe in education, and it can't start too young. ROTLA is a film that is remarkable for its grey areas, it has stood the test of time because, in part, it avoided the simplicity of black and white issues. Hence our discussing the character of Indy himself.

I can now easily overlook all the anachronisms, and even the impossible escapes, because they are taking place in a world that isn't ours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy's brother
He's not flawed enough to walk one foot in the villain role and the other in the hero role (my understanding of "anti-hero") I think he is flawed enough to make him realistic, no more no less. I can see a valid argument for the anti-hero mantle, but I think that is an interpretation for the individual viewer to make, not necessarily a truth about his character. Maybe I'm old fashoined, simple, stubborn, or just still locked in the impression I got from indy when I was first introduced to him at the age of 10. He seemed like a full-fledged hero to me then, and didn't influence me to do anything amoral in his name since.

By "anti-hero", my definition of the term is as written in the Wikipedia page of the same term:

"In fiction, an antihero...is generally considered to be a protagonist whose character is at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis."

Indy doesn't always set out to do things for heroic reasons. but rather for personal gain or glory ("fortune and glory"). He isn't an archetypal hero. In Temple of Doom he doesn't immediately agree to help the village, but is finally persuaded when the Indian boy falls into his arms. In KOTCS he's still inclined to grave-robbing, and is only shamed by his son into returning the dagger to it's rightful owner.

Children will not necessarily see these intricacies, and see only the hero. Yet, adults will be more inclined to spot the points where Indy's character diverges from that of the traditional hero. In one sense that makes him suitable for family viewing, as it's possible to view him from different perpectives.

To me, he will always be a rogue. In heroic terms I'd place him closer to a Homeric hero - such as Achilles or Odysseus, who are at times morally ambiguous, as opposed to a saviour of mankind such as Flash Gordon.
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:45 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
"The ends justify the means", (Indy redeeming himself) is certainly a simply concept, (the eyes of a child) though expressed more sophisticatedly...but is that a philosophy you want them to embrace/endorse as an impressionable child?

"The ends justify the means" is certainly an over simplified way of interpreting what I posted, so I appreciate your admission that the "redeeming" aspect is quoted out of it's context (as in it's original post I said it to support the larger point I was making about him being an anti-hero or not). That being said, if I thought that in terms of morality the Indiana Jones films actually had a message to teach their audience, and that was it, then my answer to that would obviously be a resounding "NO". But I don't think that the these films as a whole teach that at all. Sorry for the run-on sentences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HJJNR
So, if your a crap parent, Indy can be harmful to the community and your childs friends. You've been warned...

Absolutely. If a child had either bad parents or no parents, and the world of Indiana Jones was the only "reality" they were exposed to...they would evolve grow into a societally dangerous menace. Of course, the same could be said of almost any one character.

@Montana, I take no issue with anything in your most recent post, generally speaking I agree with everything you said. I do veer off on one point; regarding the SS not being featured prominently in ROTLA. A costume choice/mistake like that I am willing to shrug off because after all, it is just a movie.

Also, as far as the whole anti-hero thing goes, we've all got our own interpretation of him. My interpretation of Indy is that he is obviously better than an average man, but is still somewhere between hero and average. Anti-hero just has a negative connotation that to me dips below "average" and too far into "a-hole" or even "villianous" territory. That's just me, though.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:40 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Indy's brother
@Montana, I take no issue with anything in your most recent post, generally speaking I agree with everything you said. I do veer off on one point; regarding the SS not being featured prominently in ROTLA. A costume choice/mistake like that I am willing to shrug off because after all, it is just a movie.

I understand what you're saying, but it wasn't just a simple costume error. Dietrich's men weren't SS in the novelization, and Campbell Black based that on the screenplay. There are scenes in the book that did not get to appear on film:

Chapter Two is entitled "Berlin", where Dietrich receives his orders from Eidel, an SS officer based in an office on the Wilhelmstrasse. Dietrich's thoughts are written: "It was hard not to feel hatred towards these black-uniformed clowns. They acted as if they owned the world." When Dietrich leaves the office, Eidel says "Heil Hitler" whilst giving the straight arm salute. However, Dietrich answers in the same words, but it is not written that he gives the same salute. (A member of the Wehrmacht was entitled to give a traditional bent arm military salute).

Chapter Four is entitled "Berchtesgaden, Germany", where Dietrich and Belloq mneet Hitler. Here Dietrich is said to be in awe of Hitler, and unnerved by Belloq's lack of "respect" for their surroundings. It is clear that Dietrich, whilst hating the SS is nevertheless a man of action, keen to do the bidding of his Fuehrer. Therein lies the complexity on the side of the protagonists. Dietrich is, however, still brutal and ambitious. As for the troops under his command we don't know their sympathies, only that they stand in Indy's way as pawns in a much greater and more dangerous game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy's brother
Also, as far as the whole anti-hero thing goes, we've all got our own interpretation of him. My interpretation of Indy is that he is obviously better than an average man, but is still somewhere between hero and average. Anti-hero just has a negative connotation that to me dips below "average" and too far into "a-hole" or even "villianous" territory. That's just me, though.

I agree that the term "anti-hero" can literally mean "opposite of hero", but it generally refers to "against type", a hero who is contrary to the archetype of hero. I don't see Indy as a typical do-good, white knight type of hero, and nor is he a villain. Therefore, I see him as "anti-hero", a more complex kind of heroism.

The Nolan version of Batman would also fit that description - a character who crosses the line in the quest for justice. In crime films and books the main proatgonist is often described as "an unconventional detective" - a character of questionable morality, operating by their own code to bring about justice.


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Old 03-05-2010, 03:28 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Therein lies the complexity on the side of the protagonists.


I understand your rationale, but it only applies if every audience member is expected to read the book before seeing the movie. I've never read the novelization, much less the screenplay and am therefore not privy to this type of insight...which is , in turn, why that level of detail doesn't bother me one bit. I only have the films as they were presented on screen to go by, which is why I contend that the soldiers in these films (that spawned books, not the other way around) are meant to be viewed as one-dimensional.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:31 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
By "anti-hero", my definition of the term is as written in the Wikipedia page of the same term:

"In fiction, an antihero...is generally considered to be a protagonist whose character is at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis."

Indy doesn't always set out to do things for heroic reasons. but rather for personal gain or glory ("fortune and glory"). He isn't an archetypal hero. In Temple of Doom he doesn't immediately agree to help the village, but is finally persuaded when the Indian boy falls into his arms. In KOTCS he's still inclined to grave-robbing, and is only shamed by his son into returning the dagger to it's rightful owner.

Children will not necessarily see these intricacies, and see only the hero. Yet, adults will be more inclined to spot the points where Indy's character diverges from that of the traditional hero. In one sense that makes him suitable for family viewing, as it's possible to view him from different perpectives.

To me, he will always be a rogue. In heroic terms I'd place him closer to a Homeric hero - such as Achilles or Odysseus, who are at times morally ambiguous, as opposed to a saviour of mankind such as Flash Gordon.

I think the main reason the popularity of Indiana Jones transcends the age groups is that nearly every male can relate to him. In fact, apart from perhaps Han Solo, there isn’t another modern cinematic male icon that can compete. To the younger members of the audience, Indy would be a really cool older brother/father figure (I’m talking the Indy in Raiders & TOD), and to the older members of the male audience, he’s the type of man we’d all aspire to be e.g. tough but clever, professional, urbane and a real ladies man. I'm just not convinced we can relate to the likes of Iron Man, Batman, James Bond, Harry Potter etc. in the same way as we do Indy... as Indy always seems more grounded and familiar (not sure wether that's on the page, or is just down to Harrison Ford's performance).
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:52 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
As per many of my other posts in other threads, I firmly view the world of Indy as existing in a parallel universe - Indy's world is not ours. That much is evidenced by the Raven in Nepal (an impossibility in our world), the Germans in Egypt (most unlikely under British eyes); the weapons and vehicles existing before their date of invention and production etc.

Yet, within Indy's 'other' world there are elements that we are meant to recognize, and therefore trigger our emotions. If we are to discuss Indy's morality in detail, then are we not also to discuss the nature of the protagonists?

On one hand it is a pulp film, full of anachronism, inaccuracy, and unreality. Yet on the other, ROTLA has the power to inspire us to write in great detail at places such as this. There are things worth discussing in this film, and its successors.



I believe in education, and it can't start too young. ROTLA is a film that is remarkable for its grey areas, it has stood the test of time because, in part, it avoided the simplicity of black and white issues. Hence our discussing the character of Indy himself.

I can now easily overlook all the anachronisms, and even the impossible escapes, because they are taking place in a world that isn't ours.



By "anti-hero", my definition of the term is as written in the Wikipedia page of the same term:

"In fiction, an antihero...is generally considered to be a protagonist whose character is at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis."

Indy doesn't always set out to do things for heroic reasons. but rather for personal gain or glory ("fortune and glory"). He isn't an archetypal hero. In Temple of Doom he doesn't immediately agree to help the village, but is finally persuaded when the Indian boy falls into his arms. In KOTCS he's still inclined to grave-robbing, and is only shamed by his son into returning the dagger to it's rightful owner.

Children will not necessarily see these intricacies, and see only the hero. Yet, adults will be more inclined to spot the points where Indy's character diverges from that of the traditional hero. In one sense that makes him suitable for family viewing, as it's possible to view him from different perpectives.

To me, he will always be a rogue. In heroic terms I'd place him closer to a Homeric hero - such as Achilles or Odysseus, who are at times morally ambiguous, as opposed to a saviour of mankind such as Flash Gordon.

Montana, I was just going to quote the last paragraph of your post, because I think that is the absolute best summing up of this whole discussion yet.

But the rest of the post was so good I have to quote the whole thing.

Excellent! I don't have anything to add. You say it all there.
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:06 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
I think the main reason the popularity of Indiana Jones transcends the age groups is that nearly every male can relate to him. In fact, apart from perhaps Han Solo, there isnt another modern cinematic male icon that can compete. To the younger members of the audience, Indy would be a really cool older brother/father figure (Im talking the Indy in Raiders & TOD), and to the older members of the male audience, hes the type of man wed all aspire to be e.g. tough but clever, professional, urbane and a real ladies man. I'm just not convinced we can relate to the likes of Iron Man, Batman, James Bond, Harry Potter etc. in the same way as we do Indy... as Indy always seems more grounded and familiar (not sure wether that's on the page, or is just down to Harrison Ford's performance).

All valid points, as a child I looked up to Indy (I had no father figure in my life) and I can still remember thinking how cool it would be if he WAS my Dad, as I grew older, I started to think I'd like to be him when I grow up and now as a father and a "grown up" I watch Indy through a childs eyes again, getting lost in the spectacle of the back drops, locations the little nuances that escaped me as a child I never get bored of that scene as Indy and marion run from the flames heading towards the wing and I also get to relive the adventures I had as a child with my own kids. I think kids watch Harry Potter in the same way but as escapism "i wish I had magic powers" but they know (if educated) that life is fantasy and they come back to reality as soon as the credits roll.

When I was a kid, Superman (late Chris Reeve) was all the rage and I LOVED it but I knew I was never going to have those powers and I never tried stopping a car with my bare hands. I always watched Indy with excitement and a sense of "As soon as it's finished, I'm going out to dig for stuff" lol.

I believe the Indy movies will in essence last forever in ways that other movies dont because they deal with the light and dark side of life (No star wars pun there). Which is why Batman is now more popular then Superman... Superman is just not a believable character in the times we live and Batman is dark and gritty, like society.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:03 AM   #91
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I didn't read through all this thread, but I'd like to generally respond to it. If I'm repeating with others said before me, I apologize.

When you're a kid you don't go as in depth when viewing movies as you do when you're an adult. When I was 6 or so watching RotLA, Indy wasn't fighting Nazis, he was fighting the "bad guys". So right then and there it was proven to my young mind that he was successfully established as a "good guy". When you're a kid, you don't think about how old Marion was when Indy shacked up with her.

Now I know a popular subject in a few threads here was the whole debate on Indy being a "pedo" because he slept with Marion when she was very young. Well, I don't think it's intended to be viewed that way. Somewhere along the line someone screwed up birth dates and made Marion too young or Indy too old. Someone didn't think everything out as throughly as we do.

I never viewed Indy as an "anti hero" either. When I first starting lurking here years ago I remember re-watching RotLA trying to view him as this anti hero. He didn't come off to me as that. The Punisher is an anti hero. A dark loner who kills without mercy thinking he's making a difference. Not a college professor who took an orphaned kid under his wing, rescued children, and took part in slapstick shenanigans with his dad. Sure you could argue about the EU, but that isn't mainstream enough. The films are the heart of the franchise. They count for the most part.

So Indy is a hero to me.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:09 AM   #92
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I didn't read through all this thread, but I'd like to generally respond to it. If I'm repeating with others said before me, I apologize.

When you're a kid you don't go as in depth when viewing movies as you do when you're an adult. When I was 6 or so watching RotLA, Indy wasn't fighting Nazis, he was fighting the "bad guys". So right then and there it was proven to my young mind that he was successfully established as a "good guy". When you're a kid, you don't think about how old Marion was when Indy shacked up with her.

Now I know a popular subject in a few threads here was the whole debate on Indy being a "pedo" because he slept with Marion when she was very young. Well, I don't think it's intended to be viewed that way. Somewhere along the line someone screwed up birth dates and made Marion too young or Indy too old. Someone didn't think everything out as throughly as we do.


Not if the pre-production script discussion transcripts are to be believed. George openly pulled for her to be younger even than she was in the film.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:20 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by DocWhiskey
Now I know a popular subject in a few threads here was the whole debate on Indy being a "pedo" because he slept with Marion when she was very young. Well, I don't think it's intended to be viewed that way. Somewhere along the line someone screwed up birth dates and made Marion too young or Indy too old. Someone didn't think everything out as throughly as we do.

The Story Conference Transcript, January 1978:

Lucas — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.

Kasdan — And he was forty-two.

Lucas — He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.

Spielberg — She had better be older than twenty-two.

Lucas — He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve.

Lucas — It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.

Spielberg — And promiscuous. She came onto him.

Lucas — Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he...
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:34 AM   #94
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The kids on the forum post about their obliviousness. The parents post about their censorship.

The writing is on the wall.

Indy is not a role model or a "family hero"

It's over Johnny.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:36 AM   #95
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I never viewed Indy as an "anti hero" either. When I first starting lurking here years ago I remember re-watching RotLA trying to view him as this anti hero. He didn't come off to me as that. The Punisher is an anti hero. A dark loner who kills without mercy thinking he's making a difference. Not a college professor who took an orphaned kid under his wing, rescued children, and took part in slapstick shenanigans with his dad. Sure you could argue about the EU, but that isn't mainstream enough. The films are the heart of the franchise. They count for the most part.

So Indy is a hero to me.

He's a college professor with a violent streak. He's pretty close to a vigilante with his single-minded, 'nothing's going to stand in my way' attitude. You don't need to go to the expanded universe to find examples of Indy's less than typical heroism. He doesn't set out to save the world, and was reluctant to help the village save their children in TOD. He responds to the things that are close to him, and deep down there's a good-natured guy that in the end can't resist doing the right thing.

With Indy his reckless attitude could be mistaken for heroism - jumping onto a U-Boat because he couldn't bear to see the Ark slip away was reckless, and driven by his ambition. As was his chasing the convoy on horseback.

Whereas Superman is driven by the desire to ensure justice, Indy is driven by his personal aspirations. I think that is what distinguishes an anti-hero from an archetypal hero. It makes Indy more human, more realistic as a character, and also more unpredictable.
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Old 03-06-2010, 01:09 AM   #96
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Here's the rest of the exchange from the 1978 Story Conference Transcripts, referring to Marion's age:

Spielberg She has pictures of him.

Lucas There would be a picture on the mantle of her, her father, and him. She was madly in love with him at the time and he left her because obviously it wouldn't work out. Now she's twenty-five and she's been living in Nepal since she was eighteen. It's not only that they like each other, it's a very bizarre thing, it puts a whole new perspective on this whole thing. It gives you lots of stuff to play off of between them. Maybe she still likes him. It's something he'd rather forget about and not have come up again. This gives her a lot of ammunition to fight with.

Spielberg In a way, she could say, "You've made me this hard."

Lucas This is a resource that you can either mine or not. It's not as blatant as we're talking about. You don't think about it that much. You don't immediately realize how old she was at the time. It would be subtle. She could talk about it. "I was jail bait the last time we were together." She can flaunt it at him, but at the same time she never says, "I was fifteen years old." Even if we don't mention it, when we go to cast the part we're going to end up with a woman who's about twenty-three and a hero who's about thirty-five.


Here are a couple of quotes from the same Transcripts, emphasizing Lucas's vision of Indy's character:

Lucas He is an archeologist and an anthropologist. A Ph.D. He's a doctor, he's a college professor. What happened is, he's also a sort of rough and tumble guy. But he got involved in going in and getting antiquities. Sort of searching out antiquities. And it became a very lucrative profession so he, rather than be an archeologist, he became sort of an outlaw archeologist. He really started being a grave robber, for hire, is what it really came down to. And the museums would hire him to steal things out of tombs and stuff. Or, locate them. In the archeology circles he knows everybody, so he's sort of like a private detective grave robber. A museum will give him an assignment... A bounty hunter.

Lucas A lot of times it's sort of legal. All he has to do is get it. It's not like he steals things from collectors, and then gives them to other collectors. What he does is steal things from private collectors who have them illegally, and gives them back to the national museums and stuff. Or, being that his morality isn't all that good, he will go into the actual grave and steal it out of the country and give it to the museum. It's a sort of quasi-ethical side of that whole thing. The museum does commission somebody to go into the pyramids and you know, whatever they find, sort of get out without the Egyptian government knowing, because they were in the process of turmoil and nobody's going to know anyway and there's not going to be any official protest, so just do it. Anything that's quasi-legal, or amorphous, he'll do. He's not a totally corrupt person, where he'll steal. But if it's sort of fair game, then he comes in.

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Old 03-06-2010, 08:19 AM   #97
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Lucas — I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.

Quote:
Lucas — He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve.

Quote:
Spielberg — And promiscuous. She came onto him.

We've been through this on another thread - I would judge this as a mis-step by the creators and although we don't know the context of conversation it's difficult to understand their logic if they were created an adventure hero for kids.

Prehaps, unwittingly to the creators, he became a hero to children by default and Lucas capitalized on this.
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:08 AM   #98
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We've been through this on another thread - I would judge this as a mis-step by the creators and although we don't know the context of conversation it's difficult to understand their logic if they were created an adventure hero for kids.

Prehaps, unwittingly to the creators, he became a hero to children by default and Lucas capitalized on this.

I think you hit the nail on the head, JJ. From reading through the transcripts George didn't appear to be want to create a traditional family-friendly hero. He seemed set on creating a bit of controversy. Because he always had Harrison Ford in mind to play the part (though he tried to resist that instinct, and auditioned other actors, which only confirmed to him that Ford was the only choice), I think he was thinking of his role as the roguish Han Solo.

The telling points in creatingthe character are George calling him "an outlaw archeologist" and "a grave robber". And then, "his morality isn't all that good, he will go into the actual grave and steal it out of the country and give it to the museum." That last point is really what Indy was doing with the Chachapoyan Fertility Idol at the beginning of Raiders.
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Old 03-06-2010, 11:57 AM   #99
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I think you hit the nail on the head, JJ. From reading through the transcripts George didn't appear to be want to create a traditional family-friendly hero. He seemed set on creating a bit of controversy. Because he always had Harrison Ford in mind to play the part (though he tried to resist that instinct, and auditioned other actors, which only confirmed to him that Ford was the only choice), I think he was thinking of his role as the roguish Han Solo.

The telling points in creatingthe character are George calling him "an outlaw archeologist" and "a grave robber". And then, "his morality isn't all that good, he will go into the actual grave and steal it out of the country and give it to the museum." That last point is really what Indy was doing with the Chachapoyan Fertility Idol at the beginning of Raiders.

I think the Indy/Marion relationship of Raiders was more a conscious effort to replicate the type of dynamic evident in leading couples of the 30’s/40’s Hollywood e.g. Bogart and Bacall, Tracy and Hepburn, Powell and Loy etc. i.e. a middle aged hero playing off a young heroine. That’s not to say that Lucas/Spielberg didn’t want to give Indy some morale ambiguity (as obviously they did), but rather the morale ambiguity in this instance (i.e. the age disparity) is more a result of the style they were trying to replicate/pay homage to, rather that a conscious decision to make Indiana Jones a cradle snatcher.
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Old 03-06-2010, 02:26 PM   #100
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I think the Indy/Marion relationship of Raiders was more a conscious effort to replicate the type of dynamic evident in leading couples of the 30s/40s Hollywood e.g. Bogart and Bacall, Tracy and Hepburn, Powell and Loy etc. i.e. a middle aged hero playing off a young heroine. Thats not to say that Lucas/Spielberg didnt want to give Indy some morale ambiguity (as obviously they did), but rather the morale ambiguity in this instance (i.e. the age disparity) is more a result of the style they were trying to replicate/pay homage to, rather that a conscious decision to make Indiana Jones a cradle snatcher.

Again, it's clear what Lucas intended. Whether people like it or not, this was a conscious decision, whether you accept what Indy did was wrong or not is simply down to your own moral compass. The evidence is weighed against him and for people to defend him will ultimately make them an apologist for his actions in the same way we have apologists for Roman Polanski.

Quick question. When is at acceptable, morally (not legally - average age 16-18) for an adult to have sex with a minor and do you support Roman Polanski's position.

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