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View Poll Results: Is Indiana Jones a good role model for young kids?
Yes, he's a perfect role model. 18 46.15%
Not really but I don't mindmy kids watching the movies. 17 43.59%
NO WAY! He took advantage of teenage Marion amongst other things. 1 2.56%
I have NO idea... 3 7.69%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-06-2010, 05:48 PM   #101
Darth Vile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorJones
Again, it's clear what Lucas intended. Whether people like it or not, this was a conscious decision, whether you accept what Indy did was wrong or not is simply down to your own moral compass. The evidence is weighed against him and for people to defend him will ultimately make them an apologist for his actions in the same way we have apologists for Roman Polanski.

Quick question. When is at acceptable, morally (not legally - average age 16-18) for an adult to have sex with a minor and do you support Roman Polanski's position.

No it isn't clear... hence the difference of opinion with various posters here. You shouldn't take everything so literally when examining the throw away dialogue of a Hollywood movie.

What I find far more disturbing than the possibility that Indiana Jones (a fictional character), had a physical relationship with what we can presume to be a sexually mature Marion Ravenwood (another fictional character), is when someone attempts to make a claim that Raiders is some form of subliminal and immoral advertisement for pedophilia. That claim says more about the individual making it than it ever does about Lucas/Spielberg. At best, misguided... at worst, warped.
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Old 03-06-2010, 07:07 PM   #102
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I think the Indy/ Marion thing all boils down to movie dialogue and fans knowledge of the history of Indiana Jones getting mixed up. I certainly dont think Speilberg would intentionally plant a "Indy had sex with a minor" seed, the man has made just about THE best kids/ family films EVER made and for him to drop that history in there is a bit...well messed up. I do recall Speilberg saying that when he was young and making Close Encounters, he didn't think twice about the father (dreyfuss) boarding the mother ship and away he goes, if he had made that film now he's older and a family man, he would never have had that ending, no way would he have written that the father of (X amount of) children would leave. So I dont think that a man who thinks like that would allow our screen hero actually be a sexual predator. Lots of you here are not just fans of the films but the whole mythology and back story around the character and as we know from Lord of The Rings and Harry Potter, the written word (novels etc) are VERY different from the live action films. Some of you may have read that Indy was in his late 20's and Marion in early teens when they knew each other in the novels etc but the movie history may be that he was in early 20's and her in late teens (18- 19).

I'm just throwing ideas out here having never read any of the novels or comics or whatever. I just find it uncomfortable and unbelievable that 2 known film makers such as 'LucasBerg' would write the hero of their "moneymaker" to be a paedophile.
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Old 03-06-2010, 07:11 PM   #103
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...and. As I've said before on the subject; where in the film are we told they actually had sexual intercourse? We are having differences of opinion on a "possible" past between two people. I still think that she had a massive crush on him and she was infatuated and she was hurt when he just left without telling her. But hey, who knows?
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:09 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorJones
Again, it's clear what Lucas intended. Whether people like it or not, this was a conscious decision, whether you accept what Indy did was wrong or not is simply down to your own moral compass. The evidence is weighed against him and for people to defend him will ultimately make them an apologist for his actions in the same way we have apologists for Roman Polanski.

Quick question. When is at acceptable, morally (not legally - average age 16-18) for an adult to have sex with a minor and do you support Roman Polanski's position.

It's indeed clear from the story conference transcript what Lucas intended... at the time of the story conference. Much changed between the time of that conference and the time the movie hit screens. Moreover, even in that story conference Lucas also intends that it not necessarily be overtly spelled out, but rather implied or suggested. And even at that time, it sounds to me more like Lucas intended the relationship to be "edgy," but not clear, outright molestation - it's clear to me he always intended for Indy to have flaws and weaknesses, but still ultimately decent.

In answer to your question, I know it sounds like a cop-out, but I really have to say "it depends" in answer to the first part - factors like the maturity level of the younger partner, the age separation, the cultural context, etc. may all sway it one way or another. I do think there are lots of important differences between the Indy / Marion relationship and the Polanski incident (aside from the former being fictional and the latter not, obviously). For one, Marion might have been young and arguably immature, but it's still clear the relationship was at least consensual, whereas (if I understand it correctly) Polanski pressed the girl into something she didn't want, which to me sounds like rape or close to it, regardless of how old she was. For another, Indy and Marion's ages are a lot closer together, and even if she had been fifteen, it still would make Marion older than the thirteen-year-old-girl Polanski was with at the time of the incident (while Indy would've been a lot younger at the time of the affair than Polanski had been at the time of the incident - Indy would probably have been 27, while Polanski was 43). There's the cultural context. We don't know where Marion and Indy were when they had their affair, though we do know it would be around 1926; it might plausibly have been anywhere in the world, and we don't know what the sexual mores of the culture might have been. Roman Polanski drugged and had sex with a thirteen year old in the US in 1977.

This is an interesting discussion, and it brings to mind a question. What do people here think about 17-year-old Indy having his first sexual encounter with a 41-year-old woman?
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Old 03-06-2010, 11:31 PM   #105
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There's nothing wrong with an older lady breaking you in. Her experience and understanding would allow for a better intro to sex.
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Old 03-06-2010, 11:42 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
There's nothing wrong with an older lady breaking you in. Her experience and understanding would allow for a better intro to sex.
Thanks for all your demoralising, Mickiana. It's truly repugnant. Mary Kay Letourneau and the two children, the fruit of her raping, doff their caps to ya!
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Old 03-07-2010, 12:00 AM   #107
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Everything Marion says points to Indy being old enough to know better. That whatever Marion's morality, she looks back and believes she didn't understand the ramifications of her actions.

Indy: You knew what you were doing.
Marion: Now I do.

Come on fellas, I know you want to stick to your guns...but the implications are clear.
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Old 03-07-2010, 01:23 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Everything Marion says points to Indy being old enough to know better. That whatever Marion's morality, she looks back and believes she didn't understand the ramifications of her actions.

Indy: You knew what you were doing.
Marion: Now I do.

Come on fellas, I know you want to stick to your guns...but the implications are clear.

Yes, it's not as though the 1978 Story Conference Transcripts are part of any 'expanded universe'. They are discussions that Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan had to form the character of Indy and the plot of Raiders. Lucas actually says of Indy's character that "his morality isn't all that good". George wanted Indy to be different, "a rough and tumble" rogue as opposed to a clean-cut hero.

Lucas also makes quite a bit about Indy being "a grave robber", that "he will go into the actual grave and steal it out of the country and give it to the museum." Thirty years later, in KOTCS, Indy still possesses the grave robbing aspect of his character, though the 1950s are a little more enlightened, and his son prevents him from carrying out the act.

Even the novelization is not really 'expanded universe', since it was written before the film emerged, from the provided screenplay. Though some significant changes did occur between this screenplay and the final film - which was down to editing and the process of production.
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Old 03-07-2010, 05:41 AM   #109
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Sharkey, look up the word 'orthodoxy'. How old are you, man?
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Old 03-07-2010, 07:47 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Everything Marion says points to Indy being old enough to know better. That whatever Marion's morality, she looks back and believes she didn't understand the ramifications of her actions.

Indy: You knew what you were doing.
Marion: Now I do.

Come on fellas, I know you want to stick to your guns...but the implications are clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Yes, it's not as though the 1978 Story Conference Transcripts are part of any 'expanded universe'. They are discussions that Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan had to form the character of Indy and the plot of Raiders. Lucas actually says of Indy's character that "his morality isn't all that good". George wanted Indy to be different, "a rough and tumble" rogue as opposed to a clean-cut hero.

I don't think anyone would argue that Indiana Jones is portrayed as someone with a slight ambivalence to the rights and wrongs of a given situation, and that he did, in some way; take advantage of a young and naive Marion Ravenwood. What I think is in dispute is that Lucas/Spielberg specifically set out to create a character who should be viewed as a pedophile (although that may be technically correct if Marion was underage)... because if we take that to it's natural conclusion, Indy must be a repugnant character (and I don't believe that was ever their intention).

Ultimately, it’s Indy’s slight ambivalence to morality that makes his character closer to those cinematic icons of the 1930’s 40’s… be it Robin Hood, The Sea Hawk, Zorro or the Lone Ranger. So whilst he may not be automatic choice as a cinematic “role model for kids”, Indiana Jones (like his iconic forefathers) is a character that kids have naturally gravitated towards generation after generation…. and that’s why the character works.

Last edited by Darth Vile : 03-07-2010 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 03-07-2010, 08:33 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
What I think is in dispute is that Lucas/Spielberg specifically set out to create a character who should be viewed as a pedophile (although that may be technically correct if Marion was underage)... because if we take that to it's natural conclusion, Indy must be a repugnant character (and I don't believe that was ever their intention).

I would never go so far as apply that repugnant word "paedophile" to Indy, regardless of the fact that Marion was only 15. There were specific conditions, and Indy hasn't made a habit of luring underage girls, and despite Sharkey's statement, he didn't "rape" Marion.

It is apparent that the infatuation was from Marion, and that Indy eventually did the right thing by walking away from her. Though, by that time it was already too late, and in walking away he angers Marion.

We have to remember that we are looking at the mid-1920s (the decade of Marion and Indy's first relationship), albeit an artificial 1920s from the imagination of Lucas and Spielberg. In the 'General Indy V' thread I posted a quote from this website, which suggests that American and European society held different views on the age of consent:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230

Quote:
In the 1930s, support for setting the age of consent at 16 years or older began to weaken. Characterized by growing economic, social, and cultural independence, girls in their teens assumed a place in western societies quite distinct from that of younger children. New concepts of adolescence and specifically of girlhood normalized sexual activity during the teenage years, at least within peer groups, as "sex play" necessary to achieve adult heterosexuality. Emboldened and influenced by such ideas, girls more often talked of being "in love" with the men charged with having sex with them, and expressed sexual desire. Prosecutors and juries increasingly refused to treat such cases as rape.

Legislators, however, did not reduce the legal age of consent. The resulting tension was reflected in slang, most notably the American term "jailbait," dating from the 1930s, that registered cultural recognition of teenage girls as sexually attractive, even sexually active, but legally unavailable. American legislators did amend laws to take account of the offender's age during the 1940s and 1950s as teen culture expanded and female adolescents exercised their sexual autonomy.
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Old 03-07-2010, 09:39 AM   #112
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To put the earlier quotes into context, I've quoted the relevant parts of the aforementioned webpage.

The point being that until 1920 the age of consent within US states ranged between 10-12 years old. So, by the mid-1920s even though Indy was committing a criminal act, as Marion was 15, she was still a lot older than she would have needed to be only a few years earlier.

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230

Quote:
In 1875, England raised the age to 13 years; an act of sexual intercourse with a girl younger than 13 was a felony. In the U.S., each state determined its own criminal law and age of consent ranged from 10 to 12 years of age. U.S. laws did not change in the wake of England's shift. Nor did Anglo-American law apply to boys.
...

At the end of 19th century, moral reformers drew the age of consent into campaigns against prostitution. Revelations of child prostitution were central to those campaigns, a situation that resulted, reformers argued, from men taking advantage of the innocence of girls just over the age of consent.

...

The outcry it provoked pushed British legislators to raise the age of consent to 16 years, and stirred reformers in the U.S, such as the Women's Christian Temperance Union, the British Empire, and Europe to push for similar legislation. By 1920, Anglo-American legislators had responded by increasing the age of consent to 16 years, and even as high as 18 years.

...

Opponents remained focused on physiological maturity, however, and argued that girls in their teens were sufficiently developed not to need legal protection. Moreover, they argued, by late adolescence girls possessed sufficient understanding about how to use the law to blackmail unwary men.

...

In the 1930s, support for setting the age of consent at 16 years or older began to weaken. Characterized by growing economic, social, and cultural independence, girls in their teens assumed a place in western societies quite distinct from that of younger children. New concepts of adolescence and specifically of girlhood normalized sexual activity during the teenage years, at least within peer groups, as "sex play" necessary to achieve adult heterosexuality. Emboldened and influenced by such ideas, girls more often talked of being "in love" with the men charged with having sex with them, and expressed sexual desire. Prosecutors and juries increasingly refused to treat such cases as rape.

Legislators, however, did not reduce the legal age of consent. The resulting tension was reflected in slang, most notably the American term "jailbait," dating from the 1930s, that registered cultural recognition of teenage girls as sexually attractive, even sexually active, but legally unavailable. American legislators did amend laws to take account of the offender's age during the 1940s and 1950s as teen culture expanded and female adolescents exercised their sexual autonomy. During and after World War II, if both the male and female were underage (or between two and six years above the age of consent), the punishment was reduced.
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Old 03-07-2010, 09:59 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I would never go so far as apply that repugnant word "paedophile" to Indy, regardless of the fact that Marion was only 15. There were specific conditions, and Indy hasn't made a habit of luring underage girls, and despite Sharkey's statement, he didn't "rape" Marion.

It is apparent that the infatuation was from Marion, and that Indy eventually did the right thing by walking away from her. Though, by that time it was already too late, and in walking away he angers Marion.

We have to remember that we are looking at the mid-1920s (the decade of Marion and Indy's first relationship), albeit an artificial 1920s from the imagination of Lucas and Spielberg. In the 'General Indy V' thread I posted a quote from this website, which suggests that American and European society held different views on the age of consent:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230

Agreed... and don't get me wrong, I have never thought Lucas wanted to portray Indy as a 'role model citizen' who wouldn't do any wrong... just that I don't believe he was intended to be some dark and brooding anti-hero (Belloq was proved wrong IMHO). Indy is a quintessential rogue a la Han Solo... and everyone loves a rogue.
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Old 03-07-2010, 10:24 AM   #114
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The idea that, among Nazis, and finding the Ark, that "Marion is the least of your worries right now believe me, Indy" is the first nail in the coffin.

Enough for Indy ask: "What do you mean"?

This is the reason he got in to archaeology in the first place/Marcus is jealous and he's most concerned about Abner/Marion?

Is this an indication of Indy and Marcus' position on the age of consent?

My feeling? It would take "a hell of a lot for [someone] to alienate" an educator that he would burn bridges with the most gifted bum he ever trained. More than a youthful kiss or holding hands.

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Old 03-07-2010, 10:59 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
Agreed... and don't get me wrong, I have never thought Lucas wanted to portray Indy as a 'role model citizen' who wouldn't do any wrong... just that I don't believe he was intended to be some dark and brooding anti-hero (Belloq was proved wrong IMHO). Indy is a quintessential rogue a la Han Solo... and everyone loves a rogue.

Yes, I'm right with you, Darth.

Indy's a rogue after the Han Solo pattern, which makes him an unconventional hero. In Star Wars: A New Hope Han was very much the anti-hero: selfish, greedy, shooting Greedo first as a pre-emptive strike, and so on. In the end, just like Indy, there's a nagging moral conscience that forces him to come back and do the right thing. A conventional or archetypal hero would have done the right thing from the outset. Roguish heroes are much more fun!
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Old 03-07-2010, 11:09 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
The idea that, among Nazis, and finding the Ark, that "Marion is the least of your worries right now believe me, Indy" is the first nail in the coffin.

Enough for Indy ask: "What do you mean"?

This is the reason he got in to archaeology in the first place/Marcus is jealous and he's most concerned about Abner/Marion?

Is this an indication of Indy and Marcus' position on the age of consent?

My feeling? It would take "a hell of a lot for [someone] to alienate" an educator that he would burn bridges with the most gifted bum he ever trained. More than a youthful kiss or holding hands.

An interesting point, Rocket. I don't think there's much doubt that Indy and Marion reached the last base, as it were. Walking out afterwards was the right thing, yet it was also the thing that annoyed Marion most about him. Marion claims she was an innocent girl, and that Indy was the one who knew what he was doing. On the face of it it looks as though he was taking advantage, but I think, Indy (being his normal impetuous self) hadn't planned it (he has that tendency to "make it up" as he goes along).

It wasn't really Indy that messed up Marion's life, but her father for dragging her to Nepal, having the misfortune to die, and leave her to a life of prostitution, until rescued by Indy. Indy being Indy again, his rescue culminates in burning The Raven to the ground, and leaving her no choice but to go with him.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:51 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Sharkey
You are so wrong. Indiana Jones was never a family hero.Not even now. He raped an underage girl and later he got her pregnant and left her at the altar.

What on earth are you talking about? It was never portrayed as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkey
He sleeps with his students and in his later years gets married because everything else in his life is being "taken away"...selfish and hardly a family hero.

Hasn't this been pointed out time and time again?

You seem to think that the term 'family hero' can only apply to disney-style Mounties or something. Why is the idea of a character being flawed somehow the opposite to a family enjoying his adventures?
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:15 AM   #118
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:25 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by emtiem



You seem to think that the term 'family hero' can only apply to disney-style Mounties or something. Why is the idea of a character being flawed somehow the opposite to a family enjoying his adventures?

Agree 100%. The only iconic hero I can think of who is beyond reproach is Superman... and, IMHO, he gets a bit boring because of that fact.
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Old 03-08-2010, 04:50 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Hence my follow of your lead. Better sources, I'd say that's to be determined, but the Ultimate Guide? A step up factually from Beam's "Off The Beaten Path", (barely). As for Marion being 17, no, she was a child, it was wrong and he knew it.

As far as the Ultimate Guide goes, Marion's 15 going on 16 when she's with Indy. So it can still be wrong and he know it. Marion born March 1909. Marion and Indy are together Spring 1925 - Autumn 1925.

Of course, taking in the larger continuity, at this time (Summer 1925) Indy is building a relationship with future first wife Deirdre Campbell. That's wrong and he'd know it.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:42 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
An interesting point, Rocket. I don't think there's much doubt that Indy and Marion reached the last base, as it were.
You must mean, "reached home". The term "last base" is non-existant.

What I find funny is that, upon first joining The Raven, there were extremely long, essay-type posts about the dark side of Indy...The Man Who Stepped From The Shadows in Raiders of the Lost Ark...Now, some of those same people are having debates over which film is better: "Wall-E" or "The Incredibles"!
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:15 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Stoo
You must mean, "reached home". The term "last base" is non-existant.

What I find funny is that, upon first joining The Raven, there were extremely long, essay-type posts about the dark side of Indy...The Man Who Stepped From The Shadows in Raiders of the Lost Ark...Now, some of those same people are having debates over which film is better: "Wall-E" or "The Incredibles"!

The Incredibles!

Sorry couldnt resist
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:42 PM   #123
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The Incredibles!

Sorry couldnt resist

WALL-E

Sorry couldnt resist, too
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:50 PM   #124
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I want to add this too the mix!

If you agree that indy should be subject to the law regarding the context of the discussion. Is it appropriate for him to mentor a young child? Is that child at risk?
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:35 AM   #125
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You must mean, "reached home". The term "last base" is non-existant.

I know nothing about Baseball, as over here we play the adult version of the game, which uses mature terminology such as silly point, silly mid-off, fine leg, and googly.
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