Walter Donovan - a good villain or not?

Brooke Logan

Brooke Logan

New member
I liked him as a villain okay, but I agree he doesn't do very much on his own. I'd say that movie was more like a trio of evil, they all worked off each other, and I'd say Elsa was stronger in personality than Donovan. However I do think the actor did a good job and the chemistry with everyone he worked with clicked.

My least favorite is Irina, not because I don't like her, but more because I kind of felt sorry for her and didn't want her to die, or pay for her misdeeds, so it lost that fun appeal of seeing the villain get their comeuppance.

And also I just find everything about Kingdom inferior to the other three, and I felt especially the relationships and roles seemed out of place.
 
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Darth Vile

New member
I thought Donovan was/is a good villain... albeit in a subtle way. He's not a cat stroking (refrained from the word "pus*y) Bond like villain... nor does he go around, figuratively, biting the heads of people a la a Darth Vader/Maul or Mola Ram. I think Julian Glover did a really good job in making Donovan likeable, whilst knowing he'd happily turn you over to the Nazi's for execution.
 
michael

michael

Well-known member
You know all this time I truly thought Donovan was the most evil of the bunch.

Belloq, Toht and Dietrich never really demonstrated any true evil capabilities and Mola Ram & Chattar Lal have an excuse being under the Black Sleep.

So I always thought Donovan shooting Henry Sr. really put him to the top of true villains. But I honestly believe Donovan was so obsessed with the Holy Grail, that he knew it was really back there. He just couldn't get to it. And that Henry Sr. would be saved by it's powers. That's if I guess he would have allowed for it.

That's my take on Donovan.
 
Dr.Jonesy

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Donovan wasn't that interesting. I think they tried to make him Belloq II, due to the fact that he collected relics and seemed to act as if the Nazi cause wasn't his, just like Belloq. I think it failed, though. He's just bland and feels empty, not much color or anything interesting about him. He's just...there.

1.) Rene Belloq
2.) Mola Ram
3.) Irina Spalko
4.) German Mechanic/Dovchenko/Thuggee
5.) Col. Vogel
6.) Walter Donovan
 
HenryJunior

HenryJunior

New member
Yeah he's a little unimpressive as a Villain and the fact he isn't revealed as a traitor until almost halfway into the movie has always confused me. He doesn't project himself as the main baddie very much but that's because in LC we kind of have an Ensemble Group of Villains, Donovan, Elsa, and Colonel Vogel.
 
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Darth Vile

New member
HenryJunior said:
He doesn't project himself as the main baddie very much but that's because in LC we kind of have an Ensemble Group of Villains, Donovan, Elsa, and Colonel Vogel.
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I think you're right... Donovan is quite a non-descript, ambiguous character, but he's also (IMHO) a very believable, human antagonist. I think we also have to ask ourselves how well does that character fit the overall story?

For me, one of the strengths of TLC are the characters and how they behave and interact. Donovan and Elsa are both duplicitous characters who are willing to betray everything for their ambitions/goals. Donovan could have well been a benevolent philanthropist, and Elsa the righteous/noble love interest... but they show their true colours... the curse of too much ambition and ego. One of the consequences of that approach is it's difficult to portray them as scene chewing baddies (because they don't get the duration of the movie to play it that way).

Indy, Henry Jones Senior, Marcus and Sallah, on the other hand, are brought together through kinship, trust and a strong moral compass. Sometimes a bit corny, but I do like how you get this ensemble of good guys and bad guys... and how their relationships and motives are polar opposites.
 
Stoo

Stoo

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
I see him with my eyes. Sometimes wearing my glasses.
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Look a few posts above you, Raiders11239028275342398745987. That joke has already been said.:rolleyes: :sleep:

This is how I see Donovan. ("They call me Mellow Yello-o-o-ow..."):

FBEP107.jpg


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Seriously though, Donovan is an uninteresting, BORING character. The only aspect that made him even slightly interesting was his two-faced betrayal (which came as a complete surprise to me in 1989).
 
Henry W Jones

Henry W Jones

New member
michael said:
Belloq, Toht and Dietrich never really demonstrated any true evil capabilities and Mola Ram & Chattar Lal have an excuse being under the Black Sleep
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What about Toht taking a fire poker to Marion's face for info? What about him ordering one of his own men shot to get Indy at the same time? How about Dietrich ordering Toht to throw Marion in the well of souls and him doing it with no hesitation? How about Belloq "if she fails to please me you may do with her as you with. I will waste no more time with her"? Not exactly saints.
 
michael

michael

Well-known member
Henry W Jones said:
What about Toht taking a fire poker to Marion's face for info? What about him ordering one of his own men shot to get Indy at the same time? How about Dietrich ordering Toht to throw Marion in the well of souls and him doing it with no hesitation? How about Belloq "if she fails to please me you may do with her as you with. I will waste no more time with her"? Not exactly saints.
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Belloq, Toht and Dietrich were hired the same way Indiana Jones was, to find the Ark.

Each party did what they HAD to, to obtain it. If something got in their way, even Indiana's, they were to pursue with the goal.

I'll give you the fire poker with Toht, though. Maybe Dietrich had some pure evil in him, I don't doubt it.

But Indy did some stuff in cold blood as well, does that make him evil?
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
michael said:
But Indy did some stuff in cold blood as well, does that make him evil?
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No, but being a murdering, grave robbing, international thief makes him a tad more interesting than your standard do-good hero. :D

Donovan was yet another Indyverse obsessive, like Indy himself. Though like Belloq, Donovan had no compunction about crossing the darker moral boundaries.

Toht was a sadist. He even enjoyed Belloq's final failure.

Dietrich went beyond the call of duty when he ordered Marion to be thrown into the Well of Souls.

It's a positive aspect that not every Indy villain was a Mola Ram. The Donovan and Belloq kind were typical of many adversaries in the cliffhanger serials. Though they might sometimes conceal themselves in some manner to add mystery to the chapter play.

Indy himself would plead justifiable homicide (for the greater good) if he was ever brought to account for his crimes.
 
Marshall2288

Marshall2288

New member
Donovan was an opportunist who was only interested in himself. He didn't care about Nazis or Elsa or really even the Grail itself. All he wanted was eternal life. He was playing both sides of the fence and didn't care that everyone knew it. If Indy could get him the Grail...great. If the Nazis could get him the Grail...great. He didn't care. He was also very impatient. One of the first things he said when he entered the Grail room was "Which one is it, old man?" Never mind the fact that this dude is hundreds of years old and here are all these beautiful and ancient pieces of craftsmanship not to mention the cup of Christ (grail or not, they all belong in a museum). He just rushed over and let that stooge Elsa pick and well....we all know what happens next
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
Why would an American have been so quick to join the Nazi Party?
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Lots of Americans were Nazi Party supporters. Not only those of German heritage, but industrialists and capitalists who saw Hitler as a bulwark against Communism and something of a modernizing influence. People like Walt Disney, Henry Ford, Prescott Bush. Some might have been naive, or just ignorant of the truth of the actions of the Nazi Party and Hitler's intentions in the 1930s, while others were purely opportunist or shared Hitler's beliefs.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Did Donovan fit the membership criteria? Was he "of pure German blood"?

Or did Hitler make an exception for a valued supporter who might find for him the Grail that would ensure he'd see out his Thousand Year Reich?


It's evident from a quick internet search that the mere mention of 'American Nazi supporters' causes anger (as if they didn't exist). There were Nazi supporters all over the world. Like Communism, the NSDAP transcended borders. If you look at the 1930s as an ideological battleground, some were gathering at the extreme ends. In Britain Oswald Mosley had created the British Union of Fascists, having been inspired by Mussolini and Hitler.

The opportunism angle, as mentioned, is employed in The Last Crusade. Both Donovan and Elsa thought their best chances lay with Hitler. In Raiders Belloq also felt his best chances lay with Hitler. And for a sadist like Toht, what better employer than the Gestapo?
 
Marshall2288

Marshall2288

New member
Exactly what I was trying to say, Montana. You just said it better! Donovan saw Hitler as a means to get what he wanted the easiest. He got enternal life, Hitler got the all powerful cup of Christ. After the botched attempt to get the Ark I bet Hitler was not a happy camper with Renee and the kind of wreckless people he chose to put in charge and decided instead to go with a more "sophisticated" individual to recover the Grail and not some treasure hunter like before.
 
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