Hidden Symbolism in the Indy movies? Or just coincidence?

As a spin-off from a wayward thread, what symbolism have you noticed throughout the movies?

Intentional, accidental, coincidental, conspiratorial. Bring them all!

(Stoo, you may have something to add about Donovan's New York Apartment?)

Smiffy said:

In New York Donovan wears a red carnation in place of the badge. It's only significant in the context of the later scenes, with red being a potent Nazi colour, and a red carnation often symbolizing passion:

And to throw the viewer off the scent, Kazim also wears a red carnation:

(Also, when the Crusaders were stricken with plague in the 13th century they mixed the leaves of carnations with wine and drank it to control the fever).

To throw the audience even further off the scent Indy picks a white rose to give to Elsa, which has connotations of purity and innocence, but also of secrecy:

It may mean nothing, but I like the idea of the subtle symbolism.

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I saw this in the other thread and I've never noticed this before and I look forward to the upcoming opinions. I wouldn't put it past Spielberg to throw in little things like this. I'm more convinced of the white rose and it's meaning of purity, innocence and secrecy than I am of the red carnation. Good observations.

There was a small anti-Nazi group called the "White Rose" which operated in Germany in the 1940's.

How this would apply to Elsa in 1938 I wouldn't know.

Marshall2288 said:

I saw this in the other thread and I've never noticed this before and I look forward to the upcoming opinions. I wouldn't put it past Spielberg to throw in little things like this. I'm more convinced of the white rose and it's meaning of purity, innocence and secrecy than I am of the red carnation. Good observations.

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Next time you see Raiders, pay attention to how sparingly Spielberg uses the color red. He's very decisive about it there.

Comment carried over from original thread.

The possible symbolism of the colors of the carnations, Monty, is really intriguing. I don't know if symbolism was intended or Spielberg just had an over-zealous florist, but there are definately a lot of carnations in Last Crusade. There are white and pink carnations as centerpieces on all the dining tables of the zeppelin. The man referred to as Panama Hat wears a red carnation in both eras. I've always found it interesting, too, that Young Indy wears a red scout patch over his heart in opposition to Herman's silver badge. This may all just be an artistic use of bold and contrasting colors to compliment the composition, however, as carnations are found in Temple of Doom, too. In the Obi-Wan Club, Indy is wearing a red carnation in contrast to the white carnations of Lao's consortium. Still, if ever there is hidden symbolism to be found in an Indy film, it's Last Crusade, such as the animal symbols of the Six Degrees of Awareness as described in the novel.

From the thread, "Six Degrees of the Grail Quest"

I made my own Grail diary a few years ago and wanted to give it a uniqueness, so I added some notations only found in the novelization of the Last Crusade- most specifically the Six Degrees or Levels of Awareness in the Grail quest. Here are the degrees as as I wrote them, penned in the common style of the movie Grail Diary:
"There are six degrees or levels of awareness in the Grail quest and each one is represented by an animal.
The raven was the symbol of the first degree and represented the messenger of the Grail and the finger of fate that initiated the quest.
The peacock signified the second degree and symbolized the search for immortality. It is suggested that the colorful and imaginative nature of the quest is apparent.
The sign for the third degree was the swan because the one who took up the Grail quest sang a swan song to selfish and indulgent ways. In order to succeed in the quest, one must overcome weaknesses of the mind and heart and move beyond pety likes and dislikes.
The fourth degree was signified by the pelican, a bird willing to nurture its young by wounding its own breast. It symbolized the quality of self-sacrifice and the willingness to endanger self for the sake of saving one's own people.
The lion was the sign of the fifth degree. It stood for leadership, conquest, and the attainment of high goals.
The sixth and highest (degree) level, represented by the eagle, was achieved at the end of the quest. At that time the seeker of the Grail would have gained power and knowledge necessary to understand the significance of the search."
On the very last page of my diary, I added a "Final Note" that Henry, Sr. might have penned after a discussion with Junior. Some of these symbols appeared in the movie, but all are recorded in the novel: "This quest lead to all six degrees (or levels) of awareness. The first was represented by a raven that sat on the wondowsill of Junior's classroom. The second was represented by the peacock feathers in Donovan's home. The third degree was the swan in the pond at Brundwald Castle. The fourth was represented by the pelican on the fuselage of the zeppelin biplane. The fifth degree was the lion's heads at opposite ends of the 'invisible bridge'. The final (the sixth) was seen in a vision by Junior- an eagle."
I went on a quest of my own to locate the animal symbols in the film and, as aforementioned, some of these are found. The movie was never made to show these animal representations, but for continuity with the book, it is conceivable that the animals are represented whether seen or not. Ravens, peacock feathers, and swans are unseen as far as I've been able to tell, but certainly could have been present in their respective places as the film does show the college, Donovan's opulent home, and the lake at Brundwald Castle. There is no pelican on the movie biplane, but it might be conceivable that a pelican or two went through the propeller of the fighter plane (although doves were used as doubles for pidgeons in the making). The lion is in abundance throughout most of the film, as you noticed. The eagle was supposed to be Indy's vision, but it would have been visibly present at the end as the eagle was on the chests of each german soldier that tumbled into the earth. I continue to look in the paintings, tapestries ("There are tapestries aren't there?") and even the types of feathers in the hats of ladies, but so far I haven't found any other visible signs of the other animals. I've even read signs and the names on boats for any reference to animals, but I'm coming up empty-handed. If anybody spots something, let me know.

WWII symbolism that links directly to Indiana Jones

Just as the character of Indiana Jones had worked with British Intelligence during WWII, "twenty, thirty missions", so, too had Ian Fleming, who as we all know wrote James Bond- the "father" of Indiana Jones in several respects. On one particular mission, Fleming found himself face-to-face with the "father" of occultism, Aleister Crowley. Fleming had been involved in a rousse that had convinced German command that he and others were committed to a coupe to assassinate Churchill on the grounds that Germany send a liason to discuss a peace treaty. Rudolph Hess, an astrologer/adviser to top German officials was sent and subsequently taken prisoner for questioning. Hess began to speak in what was perceived to be an esoteric tongue, so Fleming suggested Crowley be recruited to communicate, though never directly to Hess. Little was gathered from this "deal with the devil", but Crowley would later claim he had introduced a magical sign into the consciousness of the British war effort. The 'V' for Victory sign- adopted by Churchill, British soldiers and civilians- was the magical sign for the gods, Apophis and Typhon. He also claimed credit for introducing the 'thumbs up', which is a magical sign for the god Khem. Crowley delighted in impressing dinner guests that the fascist straight-armed 'Hitler salute' was taken from a Golden Dawn ritual. Whether Crowley is to be given credit for these symbols is anybody's guess, but it's all quite interesting even though I'm no fan of Black Magic. O.K., we've all heard of the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" game, so here we have the "Six Degrees of Indiana Jones" starting with Crowley: Aleister Crowley meets Ian Fleming, who is both appauled and fascinated by the occultist that he is inspired to use Crowley's likeness as a villain in his first James Bond novel. Sean Connery stars as the first James Bond, then later played the father of Indiana Jones. Done in four degrees!

I have given more thought to Monty's mention of the significance of flowers in the Indy films- Elsa's white rose, in particular. A revelation had occured to me that Elsa's rose- the only rose in all of Last Crusade that I could find- was perhaps symbolic of the sacred feminine. The book, "Holy Blood,Holy Grail" was a worldwide phenomenon, first published in 1982. There can be little doubt that Lucas and Spielberg had both read this book in preparation for designing a film about a quest for the Holy Grail. Rather than suffer the same controversy that the authors of the book had endured, it would be prudent for Lucas and Spielberg to steer clear of the revolutionary ideas presented in "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". However, might the filmmakers have given a few winks to the book? The very first shot in Last Crusade (after the Paramount logo/mountain dissolve, of course) is a canyon with a subtle v-shaped opening. I didn't find this significant at first until I took notice of the very next shot, which shows a very distinctive v-shape cut into the top of a canyon fascade- you can't miss it. These two shots are followed immediately by phallic formations that litter the desert landscape. The sacred feminine symbol shown before the symbol for the prowess of man- coincidence? On the latin-engraved side of the Cross of Coronado there is a prominent symbol in the center that appears to me to represent a rose, but someone may correct me on this. If it is a rose, then it is highly speculative that it should appear on the reverse side of the crucified Christ as a possible nod to the alternative ideas presented in the book. During the final act of Last Crusade, Elsa asks for the right to select the true Grail, but cunningly chooses the False Grail, knowing it would destroy Donovan who was sure to greedily drink from it. Elsa's hidden agenda may be an allusion to the supposition that the Holy Grail is the female, Mary Magdalene, whose followers- according to "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", also had a hidden agenda. Worshipers of the sacred feminine, like the Cathars, had been a threat to Rome's male-dominated religion, just as Elsa was a threat to deny Germany the power of the religious relic. On the thread poll, "Marion, Willie, or Elsa", many of us have different suggestions about Elsa's motives, but we all seem to be in agreement that Elsa never intended to hand the Grail over to the Nazis. I might be reaching a bit with this speculation, but it's been a fun challenge to look for symbolism in the Indy films. On another note: I don't want to appear as though I'm hogging the spotlight on this thread, but no one else has been posting, surpisingly. Like Monty, I, too, was honestly hoping Stoo had come across something we missed. Perhaps one of the moderators could combine a few of my posts?

Mod note

foreverwingnut said:

-wall of text-

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I really hate to nag about a thing that has more to do with how something is being said rather than what is being said, but... would it really hurt that much to split all that stuff into proper paragraphs in the future?

Finn said:

I really hate to nag about a thing that has more to do with how something is being said rather than what is being said, but... would it really hurt that much to split all that stuff into proper paragraphs in the future?

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I didn't realize I was being graded, Finn, but point taken.

Finn said:

I really hate to nag about a thing that has more to do with how something is being said rather than what is being said, but... would it really hurt that much to split all that stuff into proper paragraphs in the future?

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cntl-v doesn't allow that, snicker

foreverwingnut said:

I didn't realize I was being graded, Finn, but point taken.

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One does not really need to be your professor to tell you it's pain to read.

And to emphasize said pain, it happens to look like stuff that's genuinely worth reading.





<small>Not an excuse really. Broken 'Enter' key might fly.</small>