A radically different idea for Indy Five.

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
gabbagabbahey said:
And who says the first film is pulled before 5 weeks are up?
Profit.

Secondly, it's a package deal. If they're in for one they're in for all.
How many would stay after the first prairie dog, or nuking the fridge?

While most pictures come & go rather quickly this one really would have the potential to be on the screens much longer than the average film.
That's called gambling. Not a sound business model for making money.

And just so we're on the same page could you please reference the last time an Indiana Jones movie lost money for anyone?
That isn't from box-office financials. Do your research.

And again, gimmicky. It's basically the definition of a pulp serial. Yes, I agree. It's breaking new territory. Details would need to be worked out, and yes, you are right, that is not my area of specialty.

You're in luck. It's mine.

But if someone was bold enough and had a big enough vision this concept could be monster, no question in my mind.

Check with Madoff. He loved securing venture capital by packaging promising returns on things that had no value. I mean, even P.T. Barnum's critics said that there's a sucker born every minute. I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying it shouldn't.
 

gabbagabbahey

New member
Pale Horse said:
That's called gambling. Not a sound business model for making money.


Every picture, every time is a gamble, being in the industry you should know this. I won't comment on the rest of your "The glass is half empty" post.

I believe in the concept & think it could be huge if implimented properly. Understand, the "cliffhanger" part of this concept is only a part of it. There is the potential here for huge bucks to be made, simply by the nature of stretching out the length of time it's in the theaters and breaking one long movie into four smaller pictures.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
gabbagabbahey said:
Understand, the "cliffhanger" part of this concept is only a part of it.

What's the rest of it? I'll leave the financial and industry-based questions to Pale Horse, who knows what he's talking about.

Let's talk blue sky. What's the compelling reason to do this, <I>other than</I> gimmickry, marketing, and ballsiness? Which is to say: what does it do for the story? It would, I assume, entail a rather different form of storytelling. Yeah, there's a lot of cliffhanger-esque scenarios throughout the Indy films, but this would be a different proposition.

Here's a thought experiment: where would you put the divisions in the existing four films for this sort of release model?

Bear in mind that you'll need to incorporate credits and so forth in each, and tradition would dictate that there are credits at the beginning of each film. Would those play over the little recap of "last time in Indiana Jones and the..."? I'm pretty sure it would be also necessary to credit everyone who worked on each segment at the end of that segment as well.

I assume the thought is that each segment would begin with the resolution of the prior cliffhanger. Fine. Then the credits run afterwards. Obviously, attempting to fit the prior four films into this model doesn't prove anything, but it would prove illustrative as to how much the model you propose suits the sort of storytelling we've encountered thus far.
 

gabbagabbahey

New member
Attila the Professor said:
Let's talk blue sky. What's the compelling reason to do this, <I>other than</I> gimmickry, marketing, and ballsiness? Which is to say: what does it do for the story? It would, I assume, entail a rather different form of storytelling. Yeah, there's a lot of cliffhanger-esque scenarios throughout the Indy films, but this would be a different proposition.


I agree, None of this works unless this is good story telling and good film making, that's a given.

What this format does is to change things up a bit, it brings back a version of the classic pulp format but most of all it gives them some breathing space & a chance to try some things they never would have been able to in a conventional 2 hour picture.

I keep saying it over and over again but it's true. Indy might be the only franchise where this would work. Once. : )
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
gabbagabbahey said:
I agree, None of this works unless this is good story telling and good film making, that's a given.

What this format does is to change things up a bit, it brings back a version of the classic pulp format but most of all it gives them some breathing space & a chance to try some things they never would have been able to in a conventional 2 hour picture.

As in the whole argument about how the structure and form of the sonnet is a boon to creativity rather than a hindrance because it gives the artist a framework to work within? There's something to that.

The difference, though, is that a film is a much larger entity than a poem, or at least than one containing just 140 syllables. The fear becomes that the "Indy V, in 4 parts" concept would be a limiting one, forcing the various tonal beats of the story into a much more structured format. I suppose to really consider this we would need to sit down and really chart out the rhythms of the prior films. I'd initially have guessed that Raiders, with the entire section from the start of the Marshall College sequence to Toht's entrance, is the one of the films with the longest section of action-free time. I personally would argue that that is to its benefit, but it also means that the first chapter of Raiders would be rather odd looking and imbalanced. (Or maybe it wouldn't...we probably shouldn't wade too deep into this facet of the conversation without numbers. After all, with further consideration, the section from the rubber raft sequence to Indy's attack in his room at Pankot is quite lengthy as well.)

I guess the question is: what kind of story could you tell in four parts that you couldn't tell in one part of roughly equal length?
 

gabbagabbahey

New member
Attila the Professor said:
I guess the question is: what kind of story could you tell in four parts that you couldn't tell in one part of roughly equal length?

Thanks for the well thought out post.


I guess what I'd look at is doing a "Pulp Fiction" type story where there are four interconnecting, though seemingly unrelated stories. The first three end in cliff hangers. The fourth ties them all together & shows how he got out of the jams.

I think more than anything this type of format would really open up some possibilities, create some challenges and really get the artistic, creative juices flowing. Better men then me could really do something with it.
 
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Stoo

Well-known member
gabbagabbahey said:
What you see as gimmick I see as brave marketing. And no matter what anyone else has ever done, no one has ever done this. A 4 hour serial type movie spread out over 4 (or 8) weeks.
Actually, *SIMILAR* things have been done before (with extra stress on the word, "similar"). At the moment, I can think of 3 *similar* examples.:)
gabbagabbahey said:
We're talking about a series that at it's core is based on trashy, campy, low budget pulp serials. The whole premise was lurid entertainment and cheap gimmick.
gabbagabbahey said:
Indy was born to be a serial.
Indy films were born FROM the serials, not "born to be" one. While your idea is thought-provoking, the Indy films are in a totally different class than their origins. They are more than lurid entertainment and much more than a cheap gimmick.
gabbagabbahey said:
And again, gimmicky. It's basically the definition of a pulp serial.
Sure, but the main difference is that serials accompanied a main feature (which is why I suggested splitting your idea up into several, 15 minute segments shown before full-length flicks). If someone shows up for the sole reason of seeing the Indy bit, they could leave (or stay) after it was over...but they will have ALREADY $pent the ca$h on the full ticket price! (Not the reduced price that you are proposing).(y)
 

WillKill4Food

New member
Attila the Professor said:
Here's a thought experiment: where would you put the divisions in the existing four films for this sort of release model?
I really like this question. Not sure whether these would be the best places for cliffhangers or not (especially since each "chapter" here is probably not equal in time), but:
Raiders
-Part I ends when Toht enters the Raven bar and threatens Marion with the poker (seems like we ended here, we would need an introduction for Toht's character before this scene, so that his sinister nature would be more fully-fleshed out)
-Part II ends with Marion's evident death and Indiana being brought before Belloq (could seem like less of a cliffhanger and more of a downer ending)
-Part III ends with Indy and Marion trapped in the Well of the Souls (lame, amirite?)
-Part IV ends with the Nazis taking over the Bantu Wind (one of the better ones, I think)
-Part V ends with the warehouse scene, obviously

If a new film were to be made in this format, the storytelling style would need to be quite different. Parts III and IV in the above divided RotLA are nearly non-stop action for the most part, while Part I would be largely introduction and exposition. Part I would also awkwardly end before the bar scene, as we're familiar with it, ends. The more exciting moments in Raiders would not make for good cliffhanger endings simply because that would make them less exciting, I'd think. I'm not so sure that Raiders, for instance, lends itself well to getting sliced and diced like that.

Another division of Raiders, with cliffhangers edited into spots where less is at stake (flash a shot of the dead monkey and then we see Indy about to swallow the date! can Sallah, with his cat-like reflexes, save Indy from certain doom?!?! :rolleyes: ) might give us too many lame cliffhangers, ruining the flow of the story and making the film somewhat like the old Batman TV show, especially when the audience is sure that no director is going to really harm Indiana Jones. Perhaps the OP's idea, assuming it is financially sound, would work best storywise in a new series with a character and storytelling style the people are not so familiar with.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Attila the Professor said:
Here's a thought experiment: where would you put the divisions in the existing four films for this sort of release model?
Here's a thread about "Temple of Doom" presented in serial fashion:
Temple of Doom: The Serial

...and these 3 threads based on the exact, same YouTube treatment for "Raiders". (The video has been removed.)

Raiders of the Lost Ark: The Serial watch it like real serial
Raiders as Black and White Serial
Awesome Serial
WillKill4Food said:
Not sure whether these would be the best places for cliffhangers or not (especially since each "chapter" here is probably not equal in time), but:
Raiders
-Part I...
GabbaGabbaHey's topic is about Indy 5...Yes? No?:confused: He is suggesting a different approach so dividing the previously released Indy films into "chapters" has little to do with the subject at hand.
WillKill4Food said:
Perhaps the OP's idea, assuming it is financially sound, would work best storywise in a new series with a character and storytelling style the people are not so familiar with.
Even though I somewhat agree with this, the "OP"* said that no other "franchise" or "series" besides Indy could pull this off.

*OP: People have NAMES, y'know. Try using them!:whip:
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Stoo said:
Here's a thread about "Temple of Doom" presented in serial fashion:
Temple of Doom: The Serial

...and these 3 threads based on the exact, same YouTube treatment for "Raiders". (The video has been removed.)

Raiders of the Lost Ark: The Serial watch it like real serial
Raiders as Black and White Serial
Awesome Serial

None of these really bear on the discussion here, however, because gabbagabbahey's notion is one that goes rather beyond the length of the more traditional serial length shown in the Temple of Doom serial there and, presumably, in the Raiders one as well. (However, I've at least been able to delete the latter two of those Raiders serial threads, so thanks for that, at least.)

Stoo said:
GabbaGabbaHey's topic is about Indy 5...Yes? No?:confused: He is suggesting a different approach so dividing the previously released Indy films into "chapters" has little to do with the subject at hand.

He is suggesting a different approach, but there are certain components of the Indiana Jones films that one would expect to be continued here. I'd also wager that there would be a certain wisdom to this project allowing for the four segments to be re-edited into a single film at a later date. Even without that provision, you'd still want a narrative on this concept to fit in with the prior films. Would we really be happy with an Indy narrative without a longer, slower section wherein we pick up most of the information about the locales, history, and characters? That's the merit of this portion of the discussion.

Stoo said:
Even though I somewhat agree with this, the "OP"* said that no other "franchise" or "series" besides Indy could pull this off.

Yeah, although I somewhat agree with it too. It could be argued that the suspense is always of a "<I>how</I> will they get out of this?" nature rather than a "<I>will</I> they get out of this?" nature, but for such an unconventional hook as this one might hope for more than that, especially considering the degree to which information about the project would inevitably leak.

Stoo said:
*OP: People have NAMES, y'know. Try using them!:whip:

Indeed.

And, moving on from the meta-conversation...

WillKill4Food said:
I really like this question. Not sure whether these would be the best places for cliffhangers or not (especially since each "chapter" here is probably not equal in time), but:
Raiders
-Part I ends when Toht enters the Raven bar and threatens Marion with the poker (seems like we ended here, we would need an introduction for Toht's character before this scene, so that his sinister nature would be more fully-fleshed out)
-Part II ends with Marion's evident death and Indiana being brought before Belloq (could seem like less of a cliffhanger and more of a downer ending)
-Part III ends with Indy and Marion trapped in the Well of the Souls (lame, amirite?)
-Part IV ends with the Nazis taking over the Bantu Wind (one of the better ones, I think)
-Part V ends with the warehouse scene, obviously

I'd like to return to this subject when I have a little more time to do so - timing being important - but it's worth throwing in there that gabbagabbahey's concept is one involving <I>four</I> different segments, not <I>five</I>.
 

WillKill4Food

New member
Stoo said:
GabbaGabbaHey's topic is about Indy 5...Yes? No?:confused: He is suggesting a different approach so dividing the previously released Indy films into "chapters" has little to do with the subject at hand.
I was responding to this:
Attila the Professor said:
Here's a thought experiment: where would you put the divisions in the existing four films for this sort of release model?
And in the part of my post that you did not quote, I tried to outline a few ways that the new film's plot structure would have to differ from the rest of the series. I was questioning how well an Indy film would be able to pull this off. One of my sentences:
me said:
The more exciting moments in Raiders would not make for good cliffhanger endings simply because that would make them less exciting, I'd think.
...now seems really unhelpful (I need to proofread more often...), but I meant that the "more exciting moments" in the films depend on a build-up with a quick, often humorous resolution. Even the longest action piece in the film, the truck chase scene, would lose its energy if it was divided up. Just now, I imagined the Cairo swordsman scene as a cliffhanger, with the next episode of the serial resolving the situation with Indy simply pulling a gun. I can't help but feel that what makes scenes like this so great would be lost.
Stoo said:
Even though I somewhat agree with this, the "OP"* said that no other "franchise" or "series" besides Indy could pull this off.
Indeed he did, but I do not think that is the case. Cliffhangers do not work when nothing is at stake for the hero; consider how none of us really worried for Indy when we saw an atomic bomb dropped on him in KotCS. I think any established film series (television shows, a la Dallas, often seem to somehow get around it) have trouble pulling off effective cliffhangers when they don't inspire genuine fear for the characters' safety. Perhaps I am misunderstanding how a cliffhanger functions, but that anxiety seems integral, to me. (I wasn't alive at the time, so I could be a little off, but I am thinking of Empire Strikes Back as a good example of a film that left you worrying about the heroes' fates.)
Stoo said:
*OP: People have NAMES, y'know. Try using them!:whip:
Ah, you're just saying that because you like dabbadabbadoo's username.
Attila the Professor said:
I'd also wager that there would be a certain wisdom to this project allowing for the four segments to be re-edited into a single film at a later date. Even without that provision, you'd still want a narrative on this concept to fit in with the prior films. Would we really be happy with an Indy narrative without a longer, slower section wherein we pick up most of the information about the locales, history, and characters? That's the merit of this portion of the discussion.
That is precisely what I was thinking, though I admittedly did not communicate it very well.
Attila the Professor said:
...it's worth throwing in there that gabbagabbahey's concept is one involving four different segments, not five.
I know, and I realized that as I was splitting it into five sections. I was just more interested in noting the possible splits than I was in adapting the film to his model. As I was thinking about it, I almost created even more divisions, but that would make each episode even shorter than they would be in gabba's vision, like the serial version of Doom that Stoo linked us to. Indeed, gabba's Indy V would end up being far longer than any of the previous installments.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
WillKill4Food said:
I know, and I realized that as I was splitting it into five sections. I was just more interested in noting the possible splits than I was in adapting the film to his model. As I was thinking about it, I almost created even more divisions, but that would make each episode even shorter than they would be in gabba's vision, like the serial version of Doom that Stoo linked us to. Indeed, gabba's Indy V would end up being far longer than any of the previous installments.

I think that's fair, but part of the merit of going with four, on an approximately half-hour length model, is that it forces us to deal with the usual Indiana Jones rhythms and materials and how they would fit into this new format. With Raiders being 115 minutes long, Temple being 118, Crusade being 127, and Crystal Skull being 122 minutes, that's roughly the right length. You even have a little leeway, presuming the credits and introductory sequences would be cut for the eventual, and inevitable, consolidation of the segments into a single film. Any shorter than half an hour and I'd wager that whatever realism was in the concept to begin with totally flies out the window.

WillKill4Food said:
...the "more exciting moments" in the films depend on a build-up with a quick, often humorous resolution. Even the longest action piece in the film, the truck chase scene, would lose its energy if it was divided up. Just now, I imagined the Cairo swordsman scene as a cliffhanger, with the next episode of the serial resolving the situation with Indy simply pulling a gun. I can't help but feel that what makes scenes like this so great would be lost.

Yeah, I quite agree. To consider your divisions...

WillKill4Food said:
-Part I ends when Toht enters the Raven bar and threatens Marion with the poker (seems like we ended here, we would need an introduction for Toht's character before this scene, so that his sinister nature would be more fully-fleshed out)
-Part II ends with Marion's evident death and Indiana being brought before Belloq (could seem like less of a cliffhanger and more of a downer ending)
-Part III ends with Indy and Marion trapped in the Well of the Souls (lame, amirite?)
-Part IV ends with the Nazis taking over the Bantu Wind (one of the better ones, I think)
-Part V ends with the warehouse scene, obviously

...partly with this in mind but also towards resolving them in a four-segment direction, here are my thoughts on Raiders, while looking at the film to get the timing right.

Part I ends with Toht threatening Marion with the poker, at approximately 29 minutes.
Part II ends either with Indy and Sallah looking over the Well of Souls and seeing the asps, or with Indy face to face with the cobra, at either 58 minutes or 60 minutes.
Part III ends either with the swastika burning off of the crate or with the appearance of the U-Boat, at either 89 minutes or 90 minutes.
Part IV ends with the end of the film.

(I rather like the idea of "Truck? What truck?" as a cliffhanger, but the timing doesn't work out.)

I frankly enjoy how low-key most of these are, with the exception of Part I or the U-Boat rendition of Part III. Still, Part I is very heavy on conversation and Part III is almost exclusively action. Part IV is a little short. Only Part II is really an ideal balance, I'd wager, encompassing the Raven Bar fight, Sallah's home, the Basket game and Marion's apparent death, Indy and Belloq's scene, the Imam's, and the whole of the map room/digging sequence.

There is the awkwardness of the well-intercut Marion/Belloq and Indy/Sallah material being split across two sequences, but I'm not sure there's any real avoiding that, unless you allow Part II to be a bit longer and have it concluding with Belloq seeing the crate being raised out of the Well of Souls, at minute 66. That would do the rather elegant work of putting a sentient threat at the end of each cliffhanger chapter, rather than the snakes in my rendition above. I'm just not sure whether that elegance is <I>better</I>.

(Is the direction I'm pushing this thread in too much of a diagnostic parlor game? Perhaps. But I find it worthwhile <I>and</I> fun.)
 

Stoo

Well-known member
WillKill4Food said:
Indeed he did, but I do not think that is the case.
Hey, I agree with you that Indy isn't the only series/franchise to be able to pull this idea off. I was just restating what GabbaGabba wrote.
WillKill4Food said:
Cliffhangers do not work when nothing is at stake for the hero; consider how none of us really worried for Indy when we saw an atomic bomb dropped on him in KotCS. I think any established film series (television shows, a la Dallas, often seem to somehow get around it) have trouble pulling off effective cliffhangers when they don't inspire genuine fear for the characters' safety. Perhaps I am misunderstanding how a cliffhanger functions, but that anxiety seems integral, to me. (I wasn't alive at the time, so I could be a little off, but I am thinking of Empire Strikes Back as a good example of a film that left you worrying about the heroes' fates.)
Cliffhangers work even if there is zero emotional investment in the characters because (like Attila already said) they are not about 'WILL the heroes survive' but, instead, 'HOW will they survive?'. That is their standard function.

Yes, the ending of "Empire" back in 1980 was a cliffhanger with emotional investment, which took the genre to a whole new level. A 3 year wait!:eek: (Although, it was the film's major criticism at the time...;))

(No one feared for J.R. in "Dallas". Everyone was glad he got shot!:p)
Attila the Professor said:
It could be argued that the suspense is always of a "<I>how</I> will they get out of this?" nature rather than a "<I>will</I> they get out of this?" nature, but for such an unconventional hook as this one might hope for more than that, especially considering the degree to which information about the project would inevitably leak.
With film pirates being so commonplace now, the new chapters of this proposed idea would be found on the intranetses very soon after their release. Metal detectors and full-body-checks would have to be placed at the entrance of each theatre.:p
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Stoo said:
With film pirates being so commonplace now, the new chapters of this proposed idea would be found on the intranetses very soon after their release. Metal detectors and full-body-checks would have to be placed at the entrance of each theatre.:p

I'm sure I alluded to that, much earlier in this thread.
 

gabbagabbahey

New member
Pale Horse said:
I'm sure I alluded to that, much earlier in this thread.


Since the possibilty exists that a picture may be pirated why are any movies ever released in theaters?

IMO people go to the theater for the total experience. The huge screen, the great sound system, the popcorn (whether they admit it or not), to experience a great film with others (such as a family member, friend or date). It goes way beyond just finding out how the hero escapes or how the picture ends.

After the intial release this would go to streaming, DVD rentals and a boxed set you can buy at WalMart just like any other picture.
 

WillKill4Food

New member
Stoo said:
Cliffhangers work even if there is zero emotional investment in the characters because (like Attila already said) they are not about 'WILL the heroes survive' but, instead, 'HOW will they survive?'. That is their standard function.
That is something I had not really thought through. I think you're right.
Stoo said:
(No one feared for J.R. in "Dallas". Everyone was glad he got shot!:p)
As a support for your first point, most people were more interested in who shot J.R. rather than whether he would survive.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Some more fun with diagnostics...

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, as we know it, is 114 minutes long. Considering that there's credits involved in that, it's about 108 minutes of film footage. (I don't understand why the earlier figure I'd found cited 118 minutes.)

Part I would end at about 27 minutes, with Indy and Shorty's conversation about Sankara and fortune and glory.
Part II would end at about 57 minutes, with Indy, Shorty, and Willie having just escaped the spike room.
Part III would end at 84 minutes, with "Right. All of us."
Part IV would end at 108 minutes, with Indy and Willie embracing.

Part I would have 27 minutes, Part II would have 30, Part III would have 27, and Part IV would have 24 minutes (and, perversely, about 7 different action beats.)

You might be able to push Part II back a little to be during the spike scene, or
forward a little to get to the first site of the altar to Kali. They're all choices that make some sense, but I'm finding myself favoring a methodology that doesn't slice action sequences into bits. If others were coming forward with their sketches of how it might work (I kid, Stoo, I kid!), we could have something to talk about. Incidentally, while it's entirely apart from what gabbagabbahey initially suggested, I suspect that a more action-oriented approach might be one that sliced the films into segments closer to being 20 minutes in length rather than 30. That's also the length at which Temple's single best "where do we go from here?" moment gets to be a segment end, which is to say, the close-up on Indy's newly evil face at 74 minutes.

* * *

Last Crusade is 125 minutes long. Adjusting for 6 minutes of credits, that's 119 minutes of material. As such, the segments should each be almost exactly half an hour long.

Oddly, it also seems to be the film where a straightforward cliffhanger approach seems most natural, dictated both by placement and by the one literal cliffhanger moment where Indy's death seems a certainty. That's at 95 minutes, meaning the final segment of the film will be shorter, and the ones prior have a little more leeway to play around in.

So:

Part I could end at 35 minutes and the dropping of the match as the rats begin to run down the catacombs. That makes this the longest segment, which isn't bad, since it is broken into 3 discrete segments, plus the smaller Coronado scene.
Part II could end at 66 minutes with the pan up to Berlin on the road sign. It's less actiony, but if you hold for the first glimpses of the burning books, it would have potential.
Part III, as before, could end at 95 minutes, as Indy sees the edge of the cliff.
Part IV ends at 119 minutes, as they ride off into the sunset.

Part I is 35 minutes long, Part II is 31 minutes, Part III is 29, and Part IV is 24.

* * *

Then, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is 120 minutes long, with 5 of those being credits, leaving us with 115 minutes to divide up.

Doomtown is rather prior to the point of being a possible cliffhanger in a four-segment structure. This suggests that an attractive approach to the divisions in this particular film is one that tries to find the moodier, more foreboding moments and puts a division there.

Part I ends at 27 minutes, as Indy boards the train that will presumably take him to his new life.
Part II ends at 56 minutes, with Indy and Mutt at gunpoint upon emerging from the cemetery.
Part III ends at 90 minutes, with Indy's "Because it told me to." (As an aside, the exchange that happens after the waterfalls is much better than the preceding material would suggest.)
Part IV ends at 115 minutes, with the wedding guests, followed by a hat-less Mutt, leaving the chapel.

Part I is 27 minutes long, Part II is 29, Part III is 34, and Part IV is 25.

* * *

Now, I'm not a serials guy. I'm not versed in them, and I've barely seen any of them. This means that I don't have a great sense of where exactly the divisions are usually placed. Are they when danger begins? Are they at the tensest point in the action? Are they at the point right where the way out is revealed? Or just before that point?

The other question: is the placement of segment divisions in the old serial manner one that would really shift properly into this new idea in this new age. While action based cliffhangers could be a little hard to make work in a more modern era, particularly with regards to the reveal of the precise solutions that would come into play, I fear that some of my moodier transitions feel more akin to where episode breaks come in the long-form television dramas of today.
 
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